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[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

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Post by Icy Shake Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:15 am

Yeah, I'm not even trying to get this all in one post; hopefully the running won't need to be split.
. . . Nope. *Sigh*
It's not all my fault; it's a dense chapter, and 35,000 words long!

I'm happy to say that 65 was a lot better than I remembered it, and despite being pretty talky, was one of the highlights of the current volume. Oh, the difference a year and a change in perspective can make.

Chapter Sixty Five Running Thoughts:
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Post by Icy Shake Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:20 am

Chapter Sixty Five Running Thoughts, Cont'd:
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Post by Icy Shake Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:22 am

Quadruple post? Eugh.
Choose one:
Applebloom
Scootaloo
Twilight
Crazy
Rage

Chapter Sixty Five Overall Thoughts:
Chapter Sixty Five Editing:
Other Editing:


Last edited by Icy Shake on Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by O. Hinds Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:56 am

@Icy Shake:
Ah, thank you very much as always.

Icy Shake wrote:drop the comma?
Hm... I don't think so, sorry.

Icy Shake wrote:suggest "code data", or just "data" or "code": code is the more specific of the two, and thus would be the one modifying the more general of the two if both are used
Hm... Yeah, I'll change it. I think that it could have worked as just being Blackjack, though, even though it wasn't in dialogue.

Icy Shake wrote:An interesting point here, in retrospect, is just to what extent Rampage knows the Legate is on Cognitum's side, given we're looking at at least a double-cross where that's concerned.
That reminds me... you didn't spot the hidden bit of history in 73, did you? I don't recall you commenting on it, at least.

Icy Shake wrote:Granted, I still maintain that Cadence and Shining Armor actually never existed in the world of the show (or, at minimum, Cadence as an alicorn) until "A Canterlot Wedding," when they went from not existing to having always existed, but I digress.

re Blackjack's alignment: Eh... I don't know; I think she'd be Neutral Good at most. She's not against order, but neither is she for it; she values good above either its presence or absence. That's how I see it, at least.

Ah, and it's "Sugar Apple Bombs", not "Apple Sugar Bombs". You missed an instance of that as an error but fortunately quoted it in your running thoughts.

Icy Shake wrote:. . . Yes, R34 of that does exist.
...Really?

Icy Shake wrote:I forget: would she have known at this point that the Fluttertree was safe?
Fluttertree, yes, but I don't think that it was yet clear that Fluttertree could be turned back into Fluttershy. Cognitum obviously thinks she can't be.

Icy Shake wrote:and reveals that Grace had come to her, asking that she take over the Society and punish Blackjack
Ah, pretty sure you meant Charm there.

Also, with your commentary, I'm starting to get a better sense that Cognitum may be less sane than I was thinking.
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Post by Icy Shake Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:20 pm

O. Hinds wrote:@Icy Shake:
Ah, thank you very much as always.
You're welcome!

O. Hinds wrote:
Icy Shake wrote:An interesting point here, in retrospect, is just to what extent Rampage knows the Legate is on Cognitum's side, given we're looking at at least a double-cross where that's concerned.
That reminds me... you didn't spot the hidden bit of history in 73, did you?  I don't recall you commenting on it, at least.
No, I don't think I caught it, or at any rate it's not standing out in my memory. I may need to look into that sooner rather than latter.

O. Hinds wrote:
Icy Shake wrote:Granted, I still maintain that Cadence and Shining Armor actually never existed in the world of the show (or, at minimum, Cadence as an alicorn) until "A Canterlot Wedding," when they went from not existing to having always existed, but I digress.
Was there something you wanted to say about that, or were you just bringing into the open air the bit where I show I'm a cantankerous, rigid old man on his porch, bitter about the kids these days? Spike

O. Hinds wrote:Ah, and it's "Sugar Apple Bombs", not "Apple Sugar Bombs".  You missed an instance of that as an error but fortunately quoted it in your running thoughts.
Added for next time.

O. Hinds wrote:
Icy Shake wrote:. . . Yes, R34 of that does exist.
...Really?
Didn't try very hard, but a single search got a result that matched.

O. Hinds wrote:
Icy Shake wrote:and reveals that Grace had come to her, asking that she take over the Society and punish Blackjack
Ah, pretty sure you meant Charm there.
Well, I guess turnabout is fair play. Rarity

O. Hinds wrote:Also, with your commentary, I'm starting to get a better sense that Cognitum may be less sane than I was thinking.
Don't go thinking that too much based on what I had to say. Or at least take it with a hefty grain of salt. I don't like or respect her very much, so confirmation bias is likely to come into play, with me, intentionally or not, underreporting when she does things that make sense and pushing harder on things where she comes of as having a few loose screws. Add to that the way I tend to preface the former with things like "well, I'll give her . . . " or "one thing she gets right," and you're probably not getting a fair and balanced assessment.
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Post by O. Hinds Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:59 pm

Icy Shake wrote:No, I don't think I caught it, or at any rate it's not standing out in my memory. I may need to look into that sooner rather than latter.
It's a small thing, and probably immaterial by this point, but I found it pretty surprising. Actually, when I first spotted it, I flagged the bit as a probable bad wording starting a chain of logic it wasn't meant to. Turned out, that chain of logic was correct.

Icy Shake wrote:Was there something you wanted to say about that, or were you just bringing into the open air the bit where I show I'm a cantankerous, rigid old man on his porch, bitter about the kids these days?
Oops, sorry! There was a lot of post to go through. As I recall, I was just going to smile. :)

Icy Shake wrote:Added for next time.
Thanks.

Icy Shake wrote:Didn't try very hard, but a single search got a result that matched.
Huh. I've not come across that.

Icy Shake wrote:Don't go thinking that too much based on what I had to say. Or at least take it with a hefty grain of salt. I don't like or respect her very much, so confirmation bias is likely to come into play, with me, intentionally or not, underreporting when she does things that make sense and pushing harder on things where she comes of as having a few loose screws. Add to that the way I tend to preface the former with things like "well, I'll give her . . . " or "one thing she gets right," and you're probably not getting a fair and balanced assessment.
Yes, but I consider you to have at least fairly good judgement; the existence of the bias is then itself data.
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Post by SilentCarto Tue Feb 10, 2015 10:16 pm

O. Hinds wrote:It's a small thing, and probably immaterial by this point, but I found it pretty surprising.  Actually, when I first spotted it, I flagged the bit as a probable bad wording starting a chain of logic it wasn't meant to.  Turned out, that chain of logic was correct.
I'm not sure what you're referring to. There were a lot of little historical tidbits in this one. I can't find it now, but I seem to recall there was one line that implied a past relationship between... someone. Was that it?
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Post by O. Hinds Tue Feb 10, 2015 10:58 pm

I suppose it might be described as that, but if you mean "relationship" in a romantic sense, then no.
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Post by SilentCarto Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:13 am

Sorry, then I have no idea which particular bit you mean.

So! I was reading a fantasy novel called Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss. There's one bit where a retired hero has a sword hanging on the wall from a plaque labeled "Folly". One of the locals comments that Folly seems like a strange name for a weapon.

Of course, my immediate thought was, "It seems like a perfectly reasonable weapon name to me!"
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Post by FeatherDust Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:07 pm

Just finished chapter 73.

Honestly, I have very little to say at this point, because there's not a lot of speculation to be done about why things are happening.

My main thought is about Tom and the Eater.  We'd been under the impression that Goldenblood had somehow captured a star spirit, but clearly not.  It was an agreement.  Tom wants to strike down the Eater.

And at this point, I'm just reminded of Babylon 5.  The Vorlon and the Shadows.  Giants in the playground, unaware of whom they are stepping on.  They're both focused on their cosmic-scale battle, and not caring much if that happens to wipe out half a planet's worth of life.

NOW GET THE HELL OUT OF OUR GALAXY!
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Post by O. Hinds Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:23 pm

SilentCarto wrote:Sorry, then I have no idea which particular bit you mean.
I'll give you a hint: it's in the middle third of the chapter.
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Post by Icy Shake Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:32 pm

SilentCarto wrote:Sorry, then I have no idea which particular bit you mean.

So! I was reading a fantasy novel called Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss. There's one bit where a retired hero has a sword hanging on the wall from a plaque labeled "Folly". One of the locals comments that Folly seems like a strange name for a weapon.

Of course, my immediate thought was, "It seems like a perfectly reasonable weapon name to me!"
I think that now, with the benefit of knowing what Horizons is and Folly's possible role as a stepping-stone on the way there, the name might be even more appropriate than before.


O. Hinds wrote:
Icy Shake wrote:Didn't try very hard, but a single search got a result that matched.
Huh. I've not come across that.
682872
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Post by FeatherDust Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:46 pm

O. Hinds wrote:
SilentCarto wrote:Sorry, then I have no idea which particular bit you mean.
I'll give you a hint: it's in the middle third of the chapter.
I can't find the "hidden bit of history" either. It's either hidden better than I thought or it's something some of us already knew (or suspected) and so doesn't stand out as new information...
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Post by O. Hinds Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:07 pm

Icy Shake wrote:682872
Huh. Looks like Cognitum made an additional modification PH didn't mention.
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Post by SilentCarto Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:48 am

O. Hinds wrote:I'll give you a hint: it's in the middle third of the chapter.
That doesn't really narrow it down much.

I note that the corrupted moonstone landscape suggests that Luna had removed the memories that led to her becoming NMM, though since she was still NMM on her return, I'm not sure how much good that did. Maybe you're thinking that represents a possible avenue of attack against Cogs, using the same technique she did to return Peppermint's memories, but... I don't see what good it would do. Cogs could hardly be any Nightmare Moonier than she already is, really.

The corrupted moonstone also might suggest a connection back to the blackened dust that resulted when BJ ripped the Angel out of Rampage, depending on why exactly that dust turned black. It also might suggest a way to get Cogs out of BJ's body -- tear the memories out and leave the empty shell behind -- but I'd be more sanguine about that option if BJ wasn't already beyond burned out.

Doctor Octopus sure knows a lot of neuromedicine for a guy who's "not that kind of doctor". But then I guess diagnosing an aneurism isn't exactly brain surg--
Er, it's not rocket sci--
Oh, dammit, you know what I mean.

Doc Comet didn't object to the "and dead" part of what they eat, which is a bit odd considering Applebot née Cognitum expressed shock that 99 didn't incinerate their dead. I suppose on the moon you don't have anywhere to send the exhaust or ashes, so maybe they have a special vat for that.

The only other thing that jumps out at me is the soldier in the tram car, whose daughter Russet was apparently being held hostage by Cogs. Someone in the Hightower guard house had written a suicide note addressed a Russet two hundred years ago, but that would imply that both she and her daughter somehow managed to become immortal, so I'm not putting odds on that unless there's some linking fact I'm forgetting. I guess they could have been revived if they both had genetic samples and brain engrams stored in the Redoubt, but as far as I know, Cogs didn't have access to that.

(And that's assuming they're identical names, and not short for Golden Russet and Russet Homespun respectively.)
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Post by O. Hinds Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:33 am

SilentCarto wrote:That doesn't really narrow it down much.
Well, where would the fun in just giving it to you be? :)

SilentCarto wrote:I note that the corrupted moonstone landscape suggests that Luna had removed the memories that led to her becoming NMM, though since she was still NMM on her return, I'm not sure how much good that did. Maybe you're thinking that represents a possible avenue of attack against Cogs, using the same technique she did to return Peppermint's memories, but... I don't see what good it would do. Cogs could hardly be any Nightmare Moonier than she already is, really.
That's not it, but I'll comment that I think it did do a lot of good. Sure, she was still NMM on her return, but she used such brilliant tactics as... scary-looking trees. As opposed just just squashing the Mane 6 before they got anywhere near the Elements.

SilentCarto wrote:The corrupted moonstone also might suggest a connection back to the blackened dust that resulted when BJ ripped the Angel out of Rampage, depending on why exactly that dust turned black. It also might suggest a way to get Cogs out of BJ's body -- tear the memories out and leave the empty shell behind -- but I'd be more sanguine about that option if BJ wasn't already beyond burned out.
Also not what I meant, but it's an interesting idea.

SilentCarto wrote:Doc Comet didn't object to the "and dead" part of what they eat, which is a bit odd considering Applebot née Cognitum expressed shock that 99 didn't incinerate their dead. I suppose on the moon you don't have anywhere to send the exhaust or ashes, so maybe they have a special vat for that.
Ah, I asked about this! (Also not what I meant, though.) Basically, 99 was supposed to cremate its dead, yes... but those ashes were then fed into the recycling system. The incinerator was, in fact, part of the recycling system, but it was treated as if it wasn't due to the squick factor.

SilentCarot wrote:The only other thing that jumps out at me is the soldier in the tram car, whose daughter Russet was apparently being held hostage by Cogs. Someone in the Hightower guard house had written a suicide note addressed a Russet two hundred years ago, but that would imply that both she and her daughter somehow managed to become immortal, so I'm not putting odds on that unless there's some linking fact I'm forgetting. I guess they could have been revived if they both had genetic samples and brain engrams stored in the Redoubt, but as far as I know, Cogs didn't have access to that.
Hah!

So... you've still not gotten it, I'm afraid. Hm. Well, I'm basically holding off so that you and Icy Shake have chances to work it out yourselves... Would you prefer that I just told you? And at least quoted the exact bit to read or something? I would like this bit of Somber's cleverness to be admired, but that doesn't really work if it's so subtle that no one picks up on it at all...
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Post by FeatherDust Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:00 am

O. Hinds wrote:Well, where would the fun in just giving it to you be?  :)
Well, it would mean we can talk about your point rather than staring at each other in incomprehension. Twilight Sparkle

So... you've still not gotten it, I'm afraid.  Hm.  Well, I'm basically holding off so that you and Icy Shake have chances to work it out yourselves...  Would you prefer that I just told you?  And at least quoted the exact bit to read or something?  I would like this bit of Somber's cleverness to be admired, but that doesn't really work if it's so subtle that no one picks up on it at all...
Not to speak for Carto, but I'd like to hear what it is.

The downside is after all this setup it can't possibly live up to the hype and we're all gonna go, "Ohhhh, is THAT all?" Fluttershy
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Post by SilentCarto Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:24 am

O. Hinds wrote:
SilentCarto wrote:Doc Comet didn't object to the "and dead" part of what they eat, which is a bit odd considering Applebot née Cognitum expressed shock that 99 didn't incinerate their dead. I suppose on the moon you don't have anywhere to send the exhaust or ashes, so maybe they have a special vat for that.
Ah, I asked about this!  (Also not what I meant, though.)  Basically, 99 was supposed to cremate its dead, yes... but those ashes were then fed into the recycling system.  The incinerator was, in fact, part of the recycling system, but it was treated as if it wasn't due to the squick factor.
Ah, I see. I wondered how they were supposed to keep from losing a couple dozen pounds of carbon every time someone died.

O. Hinds wrote:So... you've still not gotten it, I'm afraid.  Hm.  Well, I'm basically holding off so that you and Icy Shake have chances to work it out yourselves...  Would you prefer that I just told you?  And at least quoted the exact bit to read or something?  I would like this bit of Somber's cleverness to be admired, but that doesn't really work if it's so subtle that no one picks up on it at all...
Yeah, as I said, that was all that jumped out at me. What's the quote?
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Post by O. Hinds Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:40 am

Weeeell, I suppose if I put them behind spoilers, no one would have to click if they didn't want to...
The Relevant Text:
The Hidden Meaning:
To those who opened the second spoiler: How well does that live up to the hype, then?  :)
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Post by MSCA Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:20 pm

Whoa, that's a great twist.
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Post by O. Hinds Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:00 pm

I agree! It's probably not terribly important to the story at this point, what with the problem already solved and all the other ones that aren't, but I think it's still a neat detail. And one so very subtly included.
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Post by FeatherDust Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:49 pm

O. Hinds wrote:Weeeell, I suppose if I put them behind spoilers, no one would have to click if they didn't want to...
Well... yes, the other souls appear to be fully aware of who Rampage really is and what's been going on, but I'm not sure why. None of the souls could ever recall much past their own deaths until now. They always awoke thinking it was moments after their death, not up to date on current events.

Of course, soul-memory appears to be weird; it's easily overriden by a meat-brain. Blackjack can't remember -- consciously -- the things that happened while she was unbodied. Maybe Peppermint being unblocked or the Angel being gone also gave the other souls access to her brain-memory, but I'm not clear what's going on there. Octopus referenced "maintaining focus" which does sound like the Angel was intentionally stopping them from communicating. You may be right in that the Angel took over in the Core and made a deal behind Rampage's back. Hard to say.
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Post by O. Hinds Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:40 am

swicked wrote:It was later addressed (IIRC) that Angel had figured out a way to take control of a part of Rampage's mind.
I don't recall that.

swicked wrote:So yeah, long story short, they didn't know Rampage was Peppermint.
...I thought Somber told us that they did?

Also, regarding soul memory, remember that these aren't free souls; they're bound to the Phoenix Talisman. Rampage/Peppermint's is also bound to the talisman rather than her body, which means that there must be a data link between the body and the souls in the talisman. And since the talisman was only designed to have a single active soul, the others being completely passive and just providing power, there I doubt that that link had many security measures against internal tampering.
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Post by FeatherDust Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:40 am

swicked wrote:I don't agree. Soul-memory... it's not supposed to exist. That's been made clear by Snips the soul-expert. You have to remember... every time we've seen Twist, Octopus, etc. before now, they only remembered up until the moment they died. No more. They didn't have a brain and body to experience and grow with.
Not quite... he said he'd be "very surprised" if Blackjack remembered anything of the well of souls, not that it was impossible -- he just had never seen it work. Yet clearly souls can learn and remember, since skull-Snips, soul jars, and ghouls can learn and remember while they clearly don't have meat-brains to 'experience and grow with'.

I think it's more likely that a meat-brain just overrides anything the soul learns while discorporated. The conscious mind is too loud to hear the soul under normal consciousness. In dreams or visions, maybe, though...

After all, when Blackjack woke up after the events of Black, she did remember her vision of the Stars in some small way, at least for a few seconds. It faded like a vague dream, but she did retain some fragments of it long enough to consciously examine the memory.

I've been trying to track down whether the souls in Rampage, prior to this chapter, had any continuity from one appearance to the next. That is to say, is there any time when one of them pops up and clearly recalls having talked to Blackjack before? The most obvious one I can locate is when Doc Octopus starts psychoanalyzing Lighthooves, but while he's clearly aware of the scenario and what they've previously learned about Lighthooves, Octopus doesn't actually say anything to indicate he's fully aware at that moment -- I can't tell how much it's him and how much Rampage is borrowing his expertise without letting him entirely "awaken".
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Post by SilentCarto Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:55 am

O. Hinds wrote:Weeeell, I suppose if I put them behind spoilers, no one would have to click if they didn't want to...
Hmm. I guess I'd sort of figured she didn't want to recall the horrors of the Core and was repressing it normal-style. Are you thinking the Angel made contact with the EoS while she was there?

FeatherDust wrote:I've been trying to track down whether the souls in Rampage, prior to this chapter, had any continuity from one appearance to the next.  That is to say, is there any time when one of them pops up and clearly recalls having talked to Blackjack before?  The most obvious one I can locate is when Doc Octopus starts psychoanalyzing Lighthooves, but while he's clearly aware of the scenario and what they've previously learned about Lighthooves, Octopus doesn't actually say anything to indicate he's fully aware at that moment -- I can't tell how much it's him and how much Rampage is borrowing his expertise without letting him entirely "awaken".
Octopus was the first one (besides the Angel) who "woke up" and recognized his situation, just after Horizon Labs. I agree, it seems that each of the personalities existed in a sort of fugue state until they were snapped out of it, then they became conscious, with a continuous memory and the ability to observe events through Rampage's eyes and deliberately influence her actions. (At the same time, once Rampage became aware of them, she was able to ascribe certain impulses to distinct personalities.) All the personalities demonstrated that dreamlike state when they first emerged -- answering questions in their area of expertise, but not remembering their situation for a while. When they did become aware, Twist and Shujaa panicked. Softheart seems to have re-submerged without a fuss when she was finished, possibly because of her mindset when she threw herself in front of that train. Octopus and Razorwire were brought out of the fugue state and retained awareness on their next appearances. I believe that either dredging up Shujaa's memory or returning Peppermint's fully woke the rest of the souls that had been asleep to that point. (Edit: Or else the Angel was the one keeping them in that fugue state since before the bombs fell, so her removal allowed them all to fully awaken.) Rampage may now be more aware than she's ever been.

That said, I think we do need to consider the possibility that the Rampage we've known up until now was under the Angel's influence. Not that she was under the Angel's control at all times, but that the Angel was the loudest voice in her head even when Rampage/Peppermint was in control. Rampage's death-seeking behavior might be due to having that particular devil whispering in her ear, much like BJ's suicidal tendencies were amplified by having Psalm in her head, and she might have accepted Cogs' offer of death in part due to the Angel telling her, "Believe it, join her."
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Post by O. Hinds Fri Feb 13, 2015 10:57 am

SilentCarto wrote:Hmm. I guess I'd sort of figured she didn't want to recall the horrors of the Core and was repressing it normal-style. Are you thinking the Angel made contact with the EoS while she was there?
The Eater, I don't think so. That would have confirmed that Vitiosus was correct, and that apparently didn't happen. Cognitum and Vitiosus, though, yes. Hm. Though Vitiosus maybe later; I'm not sure why he'd have happened to be in the Core at the time. Definitely Cognitum, though, and probably Vitiosus through her.

Ooh, I didn't think of the Angel being a constant active influence like that, though...
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Post by ILM126 Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:29 am

Alright, I've been gone for a few weeks now. So... Anything I missed while I was gone?
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Post by Epsilon Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:32 am

There was a new chapter (73) that was released. Probably not a whole lot else of consequence.
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Post by ILM126 Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:10 am

Epsilon wrote:There was a new chapter (73) that was released. Probably not a whole lot else of consequence.

Hmmm. I think that was Apogee, I read that already. But still, every chapter is always great thanks to the help of Hinds and Somber. ^^
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Post by O. Hinds Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:22 am

ILM126 wrote:Hmmm. I think that was Apogee, I read that already. But still, every chapter is always great thanks to the help of Hinds and Somber. ^^
Thank you, though please don't forget the other editors. :)
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