Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

[Frost]

"I'm not a man or a woman, I'm a filman, and my pronoun is 'bilf'"? That's a pathetic cry for attention at best and low-spectrum schizophrenia at worst.

I dunno, I gotta think there will eventually be a place in this discussion for people that don't want to be a woman or a man. To be the bride or the groom, the princess or the knight. Asexuals with no strong gender identity that don't want to be expected to either show their "girl power" or "be a man".
There just might not be a place for that yet, is all.

The lack of a strong identity is one thing, especially since I don't really see a lot of people screaming for the rights of people who aren't particularly man- or woman-ish. It's another thing when I see some obese neckbeard screaming to be legally recognized as a fictitious species. 

@Valikdu: bookmarked for later viewing. My Internet connection in the field is tenuous at best.

[Harmony Ltd.]

@ Swicked: Well, there's a number of people who have apparently been trying to fight for a while against what they call the "gender-binary", the idea that you either fit one set of checkboxes or the other.

That seems to fit what you are talking about.

Of course, unless you want to start digging into gender study textbooks and theoricians, or coming into contact with queer associations, the easiest way to start learning about that stuff is having to deal with Tumblr and its infamously high noise-to-signal ratio.


But I'll be the first one to say that even as a man born as a man working in a predominantly male environment, having to deal daily with macho culture is a pain when you're not as interested to talk about sex as your colleagues.

[Harmony Ltd.]

It's another thing when I see some obese neckbeard screaming to be legally recognized as a fictitious species. 

Well, take this with a whole pile of grain of salts, but reading a furry blog the other day, apparently the most egregious examples of "otherkin" blogs you find on Tumblr and such are supposedly fakes made by trolls wanting to mock the "otherkin" (who I still don't quite understand what their deal is).

Not saying none of them are real, but simply that it may be less worse than we could be led to believe from the highly-distorted echos we can get about such things.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Ah, okay, so this is what it is.

Well, don't see much difference from your average, run-of-the-mill New Age believer, apart from a seemingly higher dedication to their faith.

Now to find what are the ways they may feel themselves to be oppressed...


Interestingly, the whole idea of that is worked upon in the comic series Transmetropolitan, by Warren Ellis. (comic which I heavily recommend by the way)

[Guest]

I'm trying to keep my natural hostility in check, so I'll stop at saying that I'm not going to drop an actually engaging conversation (one of the few I actually get the chance to have, considering most of my colleagues are more concerned with discussing sexual exploits and the state of their favorite sports teams) because you don't feel like taking the effort required to move your fingers enough to scroll on past it.

Fair enough, but again I thought you two had a reached a conclusion. Which is the point of a discussion. Still, fair enough.

@Gender

It gets a bit ridiculous when you try and name every shade of the spectrum between the check boxes. I'm still not sure what some of the things tumblr comes up with are about.

[Harmony Ltd.]

I think it has more to do with the obsession some people (like, in my experience, nerds) have with needing to name and order things into neat boxes than anything else, really.

[Vinylshadow]

I know people have dissenting opinions and I don't try to change their viewpoints to match my own

In that aspect, I know for a fact I'm not a human

The idea of a thread where we can discuss serious topics apart from whatever other nonsense pops into our heads amuses me

[Guest]

fimflamfilosophy has a video on gender ambiguity, he caught a bit of flak on tumblr for it. I'm not sure that's a good metric for how accurate the video is, but he at least seems educated on the topics he's discussing.

I'll try and find a link.

[Guest]

I think this is it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-S6kGRxf_U&index=39

[Frost]

I think it has more to do with the obsession some people (like, in my experience, nerds) have with needing to name and order things into neat boxes than anything else, really.

And, on the flip side, the issue also has quite a bit to do with people absolutely needing to be different and stand out. 

"I'm gay"
"Oh, yeah?! Well I'm.....uh....an elf! So there!"

Heaven forbid they distinguish themselves from the masses by accomplishing something significant or having any sort of achievement whatsoever. Relates back to the "participation trophy" issue I mentioned earlier, I guess. Everyone is special, and you don't even need to work to be that way.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Live commenting the thing as I watch it...

1/ On the subject of hermaphrodites (around 8 minutes in):
Actually, from what I gather, in the vast majority of cases (>90%), there is no real foundation on which to base the decision to perform "re-constructive" surgery (which in this case would be actually constructive, as constructive would mean the thing existed prior and was damaged) on the genitals of the children, apart from the socially constructed idea that you need to be either male or female to lead a "normal" life. See: Trans-gender people.

My personal opinion, based on my own reflections about circumcision and other cases of genital mutilation, is that they should not be imposed on the individual, but should be left to their own decision later in life.

[Vinylshadow]

"I'm [different]"

"Good for you"

*goes on with my life*


Why can't more people be like that?

[Guest]

I've heard of (Meaning possible rumors grain of salt stuff incoming) cases where doctors have messed up the circumcision and the familes decide to raise their boys as girls as a result.

It seems like an unneeded risk. But I don't really know anything about it, I'm pretty certain there's no medical reason to do it. But I don't know.

The situation seems to be a lot like mother's giving their daughter's ear piercings as babies. To which the reason I've always heard is "If they want them later they don't have to worry about it."

[Harmony Ltd.]

Exactly. I also take a dim view of that "piercing baby girl ears" thing.

Babies are very young persons, not sacks of meat you can dispose of at your will like a fashion accessory. Respect them as such.

I mean, people like to rave about "Muh Freedom!!". Well then, respect that of your kids for starter, and don't mutilate their bodies just to fit your own worldviews.


Disclaimer: I'm the kind of guy who was absolutely shocked to discover that the large majority of american men are circumcised, and who has been even more shocked to learn of the whole business that has been built around that in maternities.

[Vinylshadow]

No mutilated genitals here, unless you count a hernia operation as such

[Harmony Ltd.]

Finished watching that video...


2/ So his bottom line seems to be "your brain must be this far away from normal to pretend to want to be the opposite sex".

Maybe it's my somewhat transhuman leanings speaking, but personally I say fuck that. If we accept that some people may want to alter their bodies with cybernetics, then we must also accept that they may also want to change their biological sex just for the hell of it.

Trying to enforce any sort of "gatekeeping" politic to say "you can be considered transgender, you can not..." is, in my opinion, just a way to say that some people have less rights over their own bodies than others.

Maybe they'll regret it later. Maybe this won't make them happy. Maybe this will create further problems for them. But what basis do you really have to discriminate there?

His interpretation seems really mechanistic, that you can somehow measure the whole of the human psyche purely through neurological and biochemical means. But he at the same time say that he has very low confidence in any current psycho-neurological models of gender. Then why doesn't he go to the bottom of his own logic? Even if you don't believe in free-will, the human brain is a construct complex enough that no purely deterministic model can really accurately describe it. Why do you think then that something as elusive as "gender identity" could be so easily identified just through this or that level of hormone in your brain? When he himself says that there's only a 30% correlation between serotonin levels and depression/absence of depression.

[Guest]

Yeah, I never got it myself. Ear piercings seem relatively harmless when compared to circumcision. It's still body modification, everyone would agree tattoos, tongue splitting and implants (In this case I'm talking about the small implants some people get in their tattoos. Not the breast kind.) would be extreme.

@ Gender reassignment surgery

I don't think it's unreasonable to have someone to consult with you. It's a... I'm terrible at explaining myself... difficult procedure. Reality TV is a terrible source for any sort of information, I understand that but there was a show about people who had gotten it. And even though I'm sure the producers had them play up the drama they seemed to be in a good deal of pain afterwards and of course there's the adjustment to your life.

I'm the kind of person that thinks sometimes a person can't be trusted with themselves, and in those cases it's best to have a gate there. Not a wall, but something that'll help you make sure this is the decision you want to make.

Of course I've never gone through any of that so maybe for the people who do want the surgery it just ends up being another obstacle.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Didn't say people didn't need to be counseled and followed. Just that, in the end, the decision is theirs and it is your duty as a decent human being to respect their decision about what to do with their bodies as long as they don't cause direct harm to others (that clause is for later cybernetics when things can get funny in a bad way). (edit: and god am I bad with run on sentences. hopefully you understand my meaning)

Now the question would be about how the healthcare system has to deal with that, and in -this- case I'd say 100% reimbursement to those for whom it -is- a question of mental and physiological health. For the rest, you're on your own.

[Scyto Harmony]

Wooooow. I'm not expert, but I'm pretty sure 'Coming to a direct halt on the highway, doing a three point turn, and going a few meters in the wrong lane to get to the exit you missed' is not a legal driving technique.


So, other then almost getting in a car crash, my day's going fine.

[Harmony Ltd.]

My take on body modifications (cybernetics, GRS, getting a replacement organ, etc...):

- Is it a matter of health, mental (not doing it severely hinder your ability to be an included member of society) or physical (doing it will increase your life-expectancy and quality of life, and will lower your degree of dependance if you were dependant before)? Then it should be 100% reimbursed, with the healthcare system giving you access to the best of the best this way (also promote innovation in these sectors, and driving the costs down if the regulatory authorities do their job, but that's another problem).

- Will improve your quality of life but isn't vital (eye surgery, non life-threatening dental, neuro-interfaces and other future things where employers will want you to have them but which aren't really vital)? The less advanced options may be 100% reimbursed depending on the specifics, but for the high-end stuff you may be only partially reimbursed or completely on your own depending on the specifics.

- Purely cosmetic / done on a whim? You're on your own, buddy.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Before I go back to work tomorrow...

I think I've found what gifts to get to Frost when I see him.

[Ironmonger]

lulz:

[Frost]

I think I'm on the same page as Harm, especially as we start delving into the realm of cybernetics. A guy who can't walk getting a metal spine? Should be covered by insurance or backed/reimbursed by some sort of support organization in the same manner as modern surgeries of that nature (limited as they are) are. A guy who works at night wanting IR vision? Yeah, that's his own shit. 

According to Iron and my other friends, at least, my main problem isn't usually being "grumpy" so much as it is being so stoic and talking in such a deadpan manner that it's impossible to tell if I'm serious most of the time, especially when it delves into matters of "let's go kill that guy" (I usually am, for clarity's sake)

[Harmony Ltd.]

Too bad you people don't speak French because I'm sure otherwise you'd just love what this guy does

[Harmony Ltd.]

I think I'm on the same page as Harm, especially as we start delving into the realm of cybernetics. A guy who can't walk getting a metal spine? Should be covered by insurance or backed/reimbursed by some sort of support organization in the same manner as modern surgeries of that nature (limited as they are) are. A guy who works at night wanting IR vision? Yeah, that's his own shit.

Personally I'm a proponent of universal, tax-funded government-managed healthcare. But that's my eurocommie opinion.

Too bad our Social Security / Universal Healthcare is going into the opposite direction, reimbursing less and less with each passing years and forcing people to become more reliant on private and company-funded health insurance, driving up the cost of healthcare for people.

Good point still is that I don't think we have that many case of people going bankrupt because of this.

[Guest]

I think I'm on the same page as Harm, especially as we start delving into the realm of cybernetics. A guy who can't walk getting a metal spine? Should be covered by insurance or backed/reimbursed by some sort of support organization in the same manner as modern surgeries of that nature (limited as they are) are. A guy who works at night wanting IR vision? Yeah, that's his own shit. 

I think it depends where technology happens to be at the time. For instance I've seen videos of cybernetic arms from what I've seen they do seem to help a bit, but for the most part they aren't quite there yet when it comes to response times. Of course the arms we have now are a huge improvement to no arms, but solely based on the videos I've seen of them in use they don't look to be that much of an improvement to one arm.

And I say that knowing a man that had one arm (His wife shot it off when they were drinking.), he was still capable of doing the things he enjoyed. Hell he still fired his 12 gauge regularly at turkey shoots. For those of you who don't know those are competitions where you shoot bird shot at targets for prizes ranging from cash to meat like steaks and sausages.

[Frost]

This is fantastic

[Valikdu]

Echelon (as well as Echelon: Wind Warriors) has been recently released on Steam. I remember them being great, so I recommend them.

...although, they may be incompatible with Win7. Um. Haven't tried yet. May need to use a virtual WinXP.

[Frost]

The CIA is trendy:

[Vinylshadow]

Too soon?:

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