Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

[Icy Shake]

I think that it was earlier than that, based on Rainbow's testimony from chapter 63:

“Speaking of the Core, did you two know that that city is an impossibility?” she pointed with her wing.

       “Impossible how?” Twister asked.

       “Twilight and Applejack noticed it.  The numbers don’t add up.  In order to build the Core as fast as they did, in just three years, it would have taken all the war materials for five years and double all the ponypower of the entire country.  All while we were at war,” she said with a smile.

       “I’m sure somepony just messed up the audits.  After all, the Core is there,” Storm Chaser said wearily, gesturing with her hoof vaguely to the side.

       “That’s what Luna said.  After all, in the early years there were tons of mistakes made between the ministries.  That’s why the O.I.A. was needed.  Everypony said there were just accounting errors and paperwork lost.  Managers were supposed to be improvising on material and labor safety.  Workers like the diamond dogs were supposed to dig even more efficiently.”  

Rainbow Dash grinned and leaned in.  “What nopony realized was that sometimes workers would come back in the morning and find all the work completely finished.  Tunnels that were started got finished way sooner than planned.  Some people figured the towers went up so fast that they were hollow, but every single one of them was filled with stuff.  Look at Shadowbolt Tower.  I don’t care how awesome Scootaloo was, nopony could have built that in twenty years, let alone five.  Nopony is sure exactly where everything is or what it’s supposed to be.  It just is.”

I figure that means they were created well under three years after the burning of Hoofington, though it's possible they were out and working before Horse's introduction to the ministry mares. And Rainbow's line about Shadowbolt Tower being there doesn't mean it's operational; she could be checking up on construction, for instance.

Also, within the scene that they were introduced:

“Applejack, I haven’t seen you in weeks.  You promised!” Rainbow Dash said irritably.

“I know, I know, but this is important too.  My brother’s signed up, and if he’s going fighting, I want somethin’ protecting him other than his thick skull!”

“Ugh… all right.  You and me then, Twilight!” Rainbow Dash said brightly, then frowned and looked over at the purple mare.  “Um… Twilight?  Equestria to Egghead… come in Egghead…”

She immediately started.  “Oh… ah… I actually can’t.  I have a… um… meeting.”

Applejack's lines are suggestive that Big Macintosh probably hasn't been in the army long, and may not have even seen combat yet. However, Twilight's makes it seem like it was after his basic training, and probably after her first meeting with him as Maripony. It certainly does not come after the Battle of Shattered Hoof Ridge, putting a hard ceiling at around five years before the bombs, to go with the floor of sometime after the Hoofington Rises speech.

Over all, I'd say my instinct is that they were probably shown at most around a year after the burning of Hoofington, maybe two depending on the gap between the burning and reconstruction really getting underway.

[Harmony Ltd.]

But then they were probably kept a secret until the final days, as otherwise there wouldn't have been a need for a lot industries that we know still existed until the end (see: Ministry of Wartime Technology).

So... apart from the usual suspect of "not wanting to upset all the MWT's war profiteers by rendering them obsolete, what might have been the motivation behind not making a heavier and more overt use of the capabilities offered by mechasprites? Fear that the Zebras would emulate and replicate them? Something else?

[Icy Shake]

It also had to be kept secret from the Equestrian government, since the M.W.T., M.A.S., and M.o.A. had all pretty clearly indicated they didn't want the project to continue, to prevent a gray goo scenario.

[Harmony Ltd.]

So Stalliongrad may have been a way to use the underlying tech while removing the element(s) which could cause people to fear a grey goo scenario?

Though this would ask why the idea didn't come sooner (IIRC the Stalliongrad Project was greenlighted by Luna 4 years before The End).

When in doubt, blame politics.

[O. Hinds]

@Icy Shake:
Ah! Yes, thank you. Thank all makes sense.
Sorry for not finding it myself.

When in doubt, blame politics.

Aye, I think that politics are a good explanation here. The risk of zebra spies acquiring them is also not an insignificant factor, I think.

As a related aside, I suspect that any surviving mechasprites would be be highly controlled things. They're easily portable, easily concealable, extremely dangerous, and extremely valuable. Someone who gets a single mechasprite and manages to program it properly could turn it into a massive swarm pretty quickly, and that's a lot of industrial capacity. Off the top of my head, both the Alliance and the Banner would be very interested.

Actually, we might be able to use this to explain why, assuming mechasprites survive PH in a way that would allow them to spread or be spread at all, they aren't just used for everything. If they're deployed in any large numbers, there's just too much risk of one being captured.

[O. Hinds]

Hm. I don't know if Meleagridis will read this, but maybe we have here a plotline in the Moojave? Someone captured a mechasprite, and now the various factions are all desperately trying to get their hooves on it. Hoofington (or the NCR, if PH didn't leave Hoofington viable) wants it back or destroyed while the NCR (if it's not where the mechasprite came from), the Alliance, and the Banner each want it for their own use. If there are Steel Rangers in the region who haven't been persuaded to join the Banner, they probably want to hoard it. If there are Bitters present, they might be interested in the gray goo possibilities as well. Does the Hero of the Moojave destroy it in the field, or do they deliver it to someone? If the latter, to who, and why? And how does this interact with other possible endings? There is potential there, I think.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Not related to the current discussion, but this conversation may be relevant to our setting discussion in general.

[O. Hinds]

Hm, aye. I'm currently working on less than five hours of sleep; do you have any thoughts on it?

[O. Hinds]

Regarding the discussion on air force mergers in the chat thread, since you didn't comment on my apportionment of aircraft in the Miliozi a bit ago hear, I assume that having the army more than the navy handle air combat is workable if perhaps, in the case of France (and the USA, in Frost's view), suboptimal ?

[Harmony Ltd.]

Historically, most air forces around the world (at least the ones which date from a period where Air Force weren't usually their own things) descend from some forms of Army Air Corps.

So it -is- workable.

I guess the question in regard to the Miliozi is one of economy of scale, and doctrinal use. If the ground forces tend to make the heaviest use of air power, it is somewhat logical that they'd be the ones with the organic aerial capabilities if there isn't an independent air force.

Most likely, as often happens IRL, both the Army and Navy have their own aerial components, but with their particular niches (IRL example: ASW / patrol planes for navies, air superiority fighters for air forces, attack helicopters for Armies).

[O. Hinds]

Thanks! Looking at the post I made and my thoughts on the matter, I don't think that there's a problem, then.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Given Cognitum and her legacy, I'm starting to think the NCR may be even less ready to trust Elusive than they were previously in meta-time.

I mean, shit, it even has absolutely no concept of shame in declaring plainly that it aims to rule over the whole universe.

If Hoofington survives, I'm pretty much certain they're going to -hate- Elusive even out of sheer principle: they will not have forgotten the Harbingers.


Also, unrelated, but am I alone in conceiving a post-Horizon, non-destroyed & peacefully united Hoofington as wanting to stay independent from the NCR, even if allied to it in the Bitter War? I tend to think the population of the Hoof would be too attached to its freedom and customs to let itself be absorbed like that.

In the end I see it becoming a "City-state" that's absurdly highly populated and diverse when compared to its size; like having a population equivalent to a fourth to a third of the NCR's while having less than tenth of the land area. Exporting technology and industrial power in exchange for food.



We'll see how PH ends...


By the way, what's Dise like, if it's canon in PH?

Could the japanese talking mare have come from Neighpon and been rented by one of the Dragons as a hitmare?

[O. Hinds]

Given Cognitum and her legacy, I'm starting to think the NCR may be even less ready to trust Elusive than they were previously in meta-time.

This seems not unlikely, yes. There are certainly similarities.

I mean, shit, it even has absolutely no concept of shame in declaring plainly that it aims to rule over the whole universe.

Elusive has also voice the view (because of course he was asked about what he thought of Cognitum) that Cognitum was a far inferior system, in large part because she was based on and obsessed with appearing as a pony rather than being, like him, a formless machine mind that is simply very good at appearing as a pony when it wants to. I'm sure that that's very reassuring to the NCR. :)
Of, and of course, if she'd won (and been right about being able to use the Eater), he would have taken a much different tack.

If Hoofington survives, I'm pretty much certain they're going to -hate- Elusive even out of sheer principle: they will not have forgotten the Harbingers.

That's why I think that that aid shipment I was talking about would be a good idea. I mean, sure, it might also remind people of the early, recruiting Harbingers, but it'd certainly make a better impression than showing up with guns blazing (not that Company security would be especially well-suited for such an assault anyway).
I do suspect that there'd be some diplomatic tension even if it was positively received, though, yes. Exactly how much also, I think, depends on whether Blackjack is still around; she'd be cautious where Elusive was concerned, certainly, but neither does it seem likely she'd give up on good relations just because of his similarities to Cognitum.

Also, unrelated, but am I alone in conceiving a post-Horizon, non-destroyed & peacefully united Hoofington as wanting to stay independent from the NCR, even if allied to it in the Bitter War? I tend to think the population of the Hoof would be too attached to its freedom and customs to let itself be absorbed like that.

That seems not unlikely, yes. The NCR would probably make some big changes if it came in, and a lot of people likely wouldn't be enthusiastic about them.

By the way, what's Dise like, if it's canon in PH?

I've absolutely no idea, sorry. I remember reading somewhere that that's a city featured in one or more other stories, and that's about all I know.

Could the japanese talking mare have come from Neighpon and been rented by one of the Dragons as a hitmare?

Rented out, you mean? Possibly. It would also potentially let them get in on the ground floor with a victorious Cognitum, as it were.

[Icy Shake]

If Hoofington survives, I'm pretty much certain they're going to -hate- Elusive even out of sheer principle: they will not have forgotten the Harbingers.

That's why I think that that aid shipment I was talking about would be a good idea.  I mean, sure, it might also remind people of the early, recruiting Harbingers, but it'd certainly make a better impression than showing up with guns blazing (not that Company security would be especially well-suited for such an assault anyway).
I do suspect that there'd be some diplomatic tension even if it was positively received, though, yes.  Exactly how much also, I think, depends on whether Blackjack is still around; she'd be cautious where Elusive was concerned, certainly, but neither does it seem likely she'd give up on good relations just because of his similarities to Cognitum.

I think that Elusive would likely tend to do a lot better if Blackjack is still around (and important) for a pretty simple reason: she, better than almost anyone not on her side, has experienced Cognitum acting like herself. (Granted, just about everyone has seen enough to pick up on the fact she's an asshole.) If he can manage a basic conversation with her without seeming like a cruel, low-functioning psychopath with a stunning lack of self-awareness of how things look and sound (for instance, if he can manage not to mention how he tortures children—I assume he doesn't, but even if he does, I figure he wouldn't see fit to bring it up on his own to someone like Blackjack if he wanted to make a good impression on her—and doesn't see why it would be viewed as a problem anyway), then Blackjack will probably be pretty open to the idea he's different. At least provisionally. The massive gulf between what she's seen of Cognitum and any semblance of normality means that he could dissociate himself pretty well from her through the application of mere competence.

[O. Hinds]

Ah, another good point.  And he has two hundred years of good management of the Elusive Company (and the Alliance in general) to point to.
...Now I'm imagining Blackjack meeting him and saying something like "So... you don't really think that you're a male version of Rarity, do you?"  :D
Not sure she'd actually say that, but it's an amusing image.

Hm.  I wonder what Blackjack would think of the Miliozi?

Oh, and I guess I don't need to consider P-21's relations with the Banner anymore...  I still wonder what Blackjack would think of them, though.  "The nicest slavers in Equestria" is not exactly a tremendous recommendation to her, but the Banner's oddities might at least complicate relations a bit.  Or just  move them to the bottom of the list, of course; I certainly don't expect her to be best friends with them, even though Rose Eye will probably respect Blackjack.

[Evilgidgit]

Dise is the central setting for F.E. Heroes (one of the "big five" Fallout Equestria stories), which takes place in Caledonia, Equestria's neighbouring country. The best way to describe it is The Strip from New Vegas meets Gotham (since the story has the Batmare and Smiling Pony as supporting characters). Before the war it was a big place for casinos and gambling, and radiation-resistant tunnels were built under the city.

You can view fanart of it here: http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2014/040/7/9/_foe_h__welcome_to_dise___by_theomegaridley-d75s76b.png

[O. Hinds]

Ah, thanks. Well, I don't see where it would fit in this universe, then, and I've no idea what it's like in PH's; sorry.

[Evilgidgit]

I don't recall there being any references to Heroes in PH, so you could always try incorporating it into the story. It is mentioned that several Caledonian scientists moved to Hoofington to help out with Project Steelpony.

[O. Hinds]

I don't recall there being any references to Heroes in PH, so you could always try incorporating it into the story.

Not sure why I didn't reply to this before, but what do you mean?

A little (...Well, okay, kind of Wall-of-Text-y) Rose Eye speech I got some inspiration to write:

I've not actually proofread it much, given that, among other things, I was scheduled to be asleep nearly two hours ago, but I don't expect it's too bad.

This is, after all, a valid question: the odds against the Rose Banner are pretty steep indeed, and they aren't exactly going out of their way to make friends.  Why should they keep going, beyond revenge?  Well, Rose Eye is indeed in part driven by her anger at LittlePip, but not entirely.  In fact, this very speech might be a good thing for a high-Speech Hero of the Moojave to throw back in her face.  "You'll become 'whatever is necessary for however long is necessary'... but only if it doesn't involve joining followers of LittlePip?  Do you truly value your hatred more than your high ideals?"[/i]

[Harmony Ltd.]

Interesting, yes.

This is interesting depth and possibilities added.

[O. Hinds]

A bit of an elaboration on how this interacts with her respect for Velvet Remedy and Blackjack (Well, there might be some additional complexities involving Blackjack, but, since it's still uncertain whether Blackjack is even alive and the Hoof more than a crater at this point in the timeline, that probably has to wait until after PH ends.):
Rose Eye believes that her philosophy, with its moral flexibility in service of high ideals, is best, but obviously most of the rest of the world doesn't follow that. In others who don't have both, she personally looks better on the latter than on the former; it's better to lose the good fight (for a given definition of "good"), in other words, than win nothing. Of course, this doesn't mean she'll agree that those ideals are a good idea, and respect isn't the same as realpolitik; a true idealist, however, will probably get her personal respect, at least, even if she thinks their ideals are ridiculous, deems them unworthy of her professional respect, doesn't like giving them her personal respect, and is trying to kill them.

[O. Hinds]

Well, personally, I thought that it was so obvious that it wasn't worth discussing, but that doesn't appear to have been the case.  I think that my conception of the process was also, based on what Somber told us, at least slightly wrong.  Unfortunately, I don't think that we can really discuss it much here at this time, as significant information hasn't been released to the public yet.

I'm also still thinking, though I likely will need to wait for the end of PH, that I'll continue to go with my previous conception of at least part of her nature in my headcanon.  We'll see.

Sorry I wasn't able to be more helpful here, swicked.

Though, since you brought it up, Harmony (and anyone else who drops by, I suppose) doesn't have to worry about accidentally letting unreleased information slip, so you might be able to get her full thoughts on the subject.

[O. Hinds]

He did?  I don't recall that.  Perhaps it was during one of the times when I had the sound muted?  And that statement could be itself interpreted as a spoiler, by the way; revealing a negative is generally not as bad as revealing a positive, but still.

In any case, the status of the output of the speculation isn't of concern here, as far as I can see; it's the inputs that are potentially problematic.

Hm.  Though perhaps you think I'm being oversensitive where information security is concerned?  Sorry.

edit: Oh, yes, and there being no one currently alive in Equestria able to figure it out isn't necessarily a sign that it won't be figured out in-universe at all.

[O. Hinds]

Oh, yes, I've just realized that there's at least one thing in 75 that we probably need to fit in here but might have some difficulty with. I can't give you any details yet though, of course, so we'll have to deal with it after the chapter's out.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Of course! :)

We'll see then.


Soon we'll finally have a good, solid "endgame" on which we'll be able to (re)build-up this beast of a shared headcanon.

'Cause I think once we're done with PH, there's a lot of old and legacy stuff that'll need to be dusted off and reworked.

We'll see.

[O. Hinds]

So, two things:
First, it occurred to me that Steel Rain and Deus might have ammunition management/generation technology partially based on mechasprites. Thoughts?

Second, swicked reminded me that FoE shows the Canterlot Signal able to be broadcast over ordinary radio channels and reproduced by ordinary speakers without losing its ability to do damage. Do you think that we ought to just paint our broad strokes around that bit? If we don't, the ability to transmit magical effects over nonmagical communication channels has a lot of implications, and even just the Canterlot Signal could be a formidable weapon.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Deus / Steel Rain: if we go for internal consistency with this headcanon, Stalliongrad had been equipped in the last year of the conflict with limited mass-reprocessing equipment. Not as versatile as a full-fledged mechasprite, but enough to separate dirt into its elementary constituent and then process said constituents as a resource.

Depending on the timeframe after which Deus' and Steel Rain's equipments have been conceived / manufactured, this could be a case of parallel development, yes.

From the equipments designers perspective, though, I'd be inclined to believe they didn't know of the existence of the mechasprite, and could have just been told to integrate this capability into their design.

Speaking of, said capability seems to me like it would in fact be a derived-capability of repair talismans, which can already to some degree absorb and reprocess mass to repair a system.

It's maybe even a case of them being simply reconfigured repair talismans. That would simplify things.

In which case mechasprites and Stalliongrad would only be a logical development of the repair talisman technology.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Canterlot signal: remind me again... was it a specially designed hex / spell, or was it simply a byproduct of the necromantic effects of the Pink Cloud?

In the first case, it could be handwaved away as an intended magical effect, some kind of magically fueled meta-virus, infecting communication networks to render them unusable, though this asks the question of how it'd fit with Zebra magic. Traitor unicorns or stolen Equestrian (mega)spell?

In the second case, it could be waved over as the kind of weirdness that happens when an area is completely saturated with necromantic energy, as Canterlot has been since since the bombs fell.

In both cases, I think it is a given that magical effects can spread in more than one way, and the idea that you could literally create a magically-enhanced virus or even program (see: EC-1101) is I think a plus for the setting and something we might wanna explore.

[O. Hinds]

Regarding the ammunition production:
Oh, aye, probably not based on the actual mechasprites, sorry; not sure why I said that. But the technology could still be related.

And good point about the potential link to repair talismans! That seems like it could make quite a bit of sense indeed...

Regarding the signal:
A byproduct, at least as far as any of the characters said. Regarding the timing, FoE seems to imply, but not state, that it took time, while PH has it happen immediately.

In both cases, I think it is a given that magical effects can spread in more than one way, and the idea that you could literally create a magically-enhanced virus or even program (see: EC-1101) is I think a plus for the setting and something we might wanna explore.

...
Right, yes! EC-1101! Which is a perfect example of this sort of thing! Which didn't occur to me at all! :D
Maybe I'm not doing quite so well on four hours of sleep as I thought... Sorry.
Anyway, thanks!

And there does certainly seem to be some potential here, certainly... though for exactly what, I'm not sure yet.
...Oh. One thought: if you put an enchantment on each of two bits of code and put them together into a single program, do the enchantments also combine?

[Harmony Ltd.]

...Oh. One thought: if you put an enchantment on each of two bits of code and put them together into a single program, do the enchantments also combine?

Well, I'm still fuzzy on the mechanics of Equestrian magic, and to answer that question, we'd need to know how spell-combining works in first place, without even taking into account that the spell is "woven" into an immaterial / intangible medium.

My first guess would be that it'd depend on the specifics of the spells inquestion.

If you combine a "thunder" spell with an "amplification" spell, my first guess would be that it'd increase the strength of the thunder spell. Or maybe it'd give you an amplification spell with the side effect of making things explode...

It becimes even more fuzzy if you want to mix things which are kind of oxymoronic together, like say a Fire and and an Ice spell. Does it cancel out, or does it allow you to crete burning ice or freezing flames?...

So yeah, the actual mechanics of magic are still a grey area for me. So I tend to go with what seems most logical / interesting.


As for the consequence in the setting, it's obvious there at least one being which is going to be very interested in the concept.


One interesting question would be to know if enchanted code would have a recognizable imprint that "mundane" info / cybernetic system can recognize, or if it is totally transparent until activated / triggered.

Because if it's the later, this could actually be one way to bring down one of the most important player on the board...

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