Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

[O. Hinds]

Well, what the Knights can or cannot do is a bit hard to quantify, as they are, as organization, nebulous by design. And to be quite honest there's a number of degrees through which one can be a member of the organization, several of them unwittingly.

If we go with the more conservative approach and say that they only have a few powerful members who are mostly known (Calamity, Ditzy, and a few others), and rely mostly on hired help or covert manipulation, there's not so much they can directly do against the Banner. They could always pull some strings to have an NCR Special Force team intervene in the Moojave covertly, justified to the NCR's non-Knight leadership as "keeping the Banner in check and showing them our continued determination to see slavery ended", having this team striking against Rose Eye's slavers and liberating some slaves, things like that; but we both knows, and they know and Rose Eye knows this isn't much.

On the other hand, if the the Knights have enough influence to have gained the loyalty of a large number of NCR officers, politicians and other public figure, and have enough resources to entertain a large network of people working for them more or less knowingly, they could actually pull out largescale covert-action, of the very disruptive kind for the Banner.

So we don't know? Hm. That would be a major factor in the decision.

But you know, there's a thing the Knights could probably do even in the conservative scenario: Attempt to assasinate Rose Eye. Without her at the helm, what are the odds of the Banner dissolving like Red Eye's empire did before?

Well, it wouldn't fall apart as messily or nearly as quickly, being as it is a smaller, more refined group. There's a considerable amount of momentum in there. Without Rose Eye, though… She's probably already written her planned succession system into the Banner's laws, so they wouldn't be completely leaderless. It's highly unlikely, though, that whoever replaced Rose Eye would be nearly as good at filling her horseshoes as she was, for a variety of reasons; at the very least, the Banner would probably stop trying to expand. There's a pretty good chance that it would avoid collapsing under its own weight, but it also probably wouldn't be able to really put up more than a token resistance to the NCR when they finally turned their expansion towards the Moojave. The only way I can see to really pull out is the formation of the Moojave Union; with the population boost, the cultural expansion, and almost certainly the abolition of slavery, the Union could stand a chance of standing up to the NCR (not militarily, perhaps, but the greatest victory is a battle not fought) even without Rose Eye's leadership. The Union could probably be formed without Rose Eye, too, and possibly more easily if someone else (The Hero of the Moojave? I do hope that Meleagridis returns soon.) was leading the effort.
But, yeah, long story short, if nothing else, Rose Eye's death at that stage would almost certainly have ended the Rose Banner as a real threat to the NCR.

This poses two questions, though: Would and could they pull it off?

It could be done. Not easily, and there are ways it could go badly wrong if planned the wrong way, but the job is unlikely to be handed to amateurs. Still, if it did fail?
"Well, everyone, I'm making this broadcast from Thornbush's hospital -- don't worry, I'll be fine -- because it seems our wonderful noninterventionist, high-minded LittlePip has some points on her teeth after all! That's right, she's now sending hit squads from her personal cult after people she doesn't like! I'm pleased to announced, though, that they're just as competent as her and without her luck, so I'm still with you and, tomorrow, so shall shall they be when we broadcast interviews with the survivors! Who will be available for release, by the way, to the first person to get to our gates with a suitable ransom."

Is LittlePip ready to call for the murder of Rose Eye?

My own interpretation:

Spoiler:

Well, it wouldn't stop the Banner's slaving; it might even prolong it, or make them hit more innocent targets, depending on who replaces Rose Eye. After all, LittlePip never sent hit squads after the Banner before, and it's not as if they've been quiet about the slaving. It was only blowing up the tower (which also, of course, removed most of LittlePip's power over and ability to spy on the Moojave) that got Rose Eye killed in this scenario. Unless LittlePip is willing to keep attacking the Banner until they stop, they probably won't just because of her.

Also:
"My attack on the tower killed no one, nor was it in territory claimed or controlled by any other power. It was popular with some of the locals, and it's going to help pegasi integrate with surfacers in the Moojave in a way they aren't in the NCR. It used up one of a very limited stock of weapons I could have used on strategic targets or population centers. I can't use it to defend Thornbush anymore, either; in a way, the attack made me weaker and less dangerous. I slave, but I ensure that by slaves are treated well and target other, worse slavers, making the areas they used to prey on safer. And, like Red Eye before me, the slavery is a temporary measure that, if all goes to my plan, will be ended within your long lifetime. I bring protection and security to the Moojave and help its inhabitants, even if it's as simple as having my soldiers help an old mare get her cart unstuck from the mud. I'm kind to foals; much of the great love and loyalty many of the members of the Banner have for me is because I have been their surrogate big sister or mother. And you know, if you've studied me, that I truly believe in what I'm doing, that I can be trusted to keep my deals, and that I am, in general, intelligent, tough, and charismatic enough to have been successful so far. Can you be sure my successor will be all of those? Because, even with how much I've tried and how well I know my people, I can't. There's a good chance my death will just make things worse for the people around here. Probably not much, sure, but maybe a lot. Are you willing to risk that? Are you willing to kill me, with all the good I've done, just because I finally poked you? Because you can't claim to be doing it because I'm a slaver; you'd have attacked me already if that was it, and my death won't end the Banner's slaving. If you kill me, it will be for one of two reasons. Either you're a stupid kid lashing back at someone who said she didn't like you, in which case everyone will see you as that, or you're attacking me because I might hurt you in the future, and the good I have done and will do doesn't matter next to that. In which case, good. You should be uncompromising in defending your people; if I was in your position, I'd have already brought peace and security to everything within reach of the SPP. I might not even need slavery, with all the resources at my disposal; Red Eye wouldn't, if you hadn't killed him. Maybe after killing me, you can start taking a more active role in politics. There's a lot of good you could do with your power if you were less concerned with nonintervention and avoiding short-term collateral damage. You might even end up something Red Eye and I would be proud of. And if you think you'd never go that far… did you think you'd ever be ordering someone's death? Slippery slopes, LittlePip. Another Arbu, your ideals, or mine. Make your choice."

[O. Hinds]

So, let's see, summary so far of the discussion of reactions to the Banner destroying a Moojave-area SPP tower at the close of the Bitter War in around 7SR:
Rose Eye thinks, and is probably right, that she can manage the NCR's response, and there's a chance she could even turn it slightly to her advantage.
The power wielded by the Knights of Harmony is out-of-universe unclear/undecided.  If they are highly limited in scope, Rose Eye correctly thinks that she can manage their reaction.  If they have a much greater amount of influence, they might provide enough of a deterrent to prevent the operation from taking place.
Even if the Knights can't directly hurt the Banner, LittlePip could call on them to assassinate Rose Eye.  This is risky; if it fails, Rose Eye scores a big propaganda victory.  If it succeeds, it could worsen conditions for everyone in the Banner's areas of operation.  It would also almost certainly end the Banner as an expansive threat, though, since it's unlikely that Rose Eye's successor would be someone who'd launch the entire Banner as a kamikaze weapon against the NCR.  Rose Eye's successor would also, possibly even following instructions she left, be able to use it as one last propaganda victory, and maybe even start NCR officials worrying about what happens if they do something LittlePip doesn't like.

Things to do:
The threat of the Knights making a direct strike is more or less binary in its influence on the decision, but their power is too uncertain to say which way the switch flips.
The threat of an assassination attempt is much more complex and could probably do with further discussion.

[Harmony Ltd.]

The power wielded by the Knights of Harmony is out-of-universe unclear/undecided.

Well, it's kind of like a Freemason/Illuminati deal: by their very nature they're rather fluid and hard to chart, and the secrecy surrounding them makes it really hard to even start making more than vague speculations about their actual goals and objecties (as in, not just what their few public figures say), and even less what means they -do- have at their disposal. You could try to start following the money and the influence, but you'd quickly become lost into a web of corporations, some dummies and some legit, and people who frankly have no idea what you're talking about.

They're pretty much conspiracy theory material, if it wasn't for the fact their existence cannot be denied, as with the fact they don't try to hide that they're not above doing violent things to "bad people" for the "greater good".

Things to do:
The threat of the Knights making a direct strike is more or less binary in its influence on the decision, but their power is too uncertain to say which way the switch flips.
The threat of an assassination attempt is much more complex and could probably do with further discussion.

Okay. What more do you think would need to be touched upon?

[O. Hinds]

Well, it's kind of like a Freemason/Illuminati deal: by their very nature they're rather fluid and hard to chart, and the secrecy surrounding them makes it really hard to even start making more than vague speculations about their actual goals and objecties (as in, not just what their few public figures say), and even less what means they -do- have at their disposal. You could try to start following the money and the influence, but you'd quickly become lost into a web of corporations, some dummies and some legit, and people who frankly have no idea what you're talking about.

They're pretty much conspiracy theory material, if it wasn't for the fact their existence cannot be denied, as with the fact they don't try to hide that they're not above doing violent things to "bad people" for the "greater good".

Ah. Hm… That might be enough to prevent the attack… I'm not sure.

Okay. What more do you think would need to be touched upon?

Well, do you still think that LittlePip would go ahead with the assassination attempt?

[Harmony Ltd.]

Well, look at it this way:

What incentives did Littlepip need in order NOT to kill Red Eye?

Following, what kind of incentives do you think she would need to NOT kill Rose Eye?


My personal guess is that she would have to estimate that Rose Eye is the lesser evil, enough that she can glance over the slavery to not have to follow with her systematic "shoot on sight" policy with slavers. Because, as has been often brought out, apart from slavery, Rose Eye is a force of peace and order in an area that hasn't been reclaimed back into civilization.

[Vinylshadow]

I wonder how asking Ponies nicely if they'd like to help rebuild Fillydelphia would work out, instead of enslaving them

Pay 'em, feed 'em, keep 'em healthy and happy

They're work happily knowing they're not a misplaced stone away from getting beaten

Otherwise, I feel that if Littlepip sees Rose Eye as a threat to the stability of the Wasteland, she wouldn't hesitate to erase her from the surface of the place

Re: "Dreadlock" Rose Eye tail

Ehh...I think it's more of a naturally-wild/unkempt look rather than dreads
ie, no matter how hard Rose tries, her tail refuses to be contained

Other style?:

That kind of tail, maybe?

As for Pony maker not working, it's like priming a chainsaw, just keep refreshing the page and wait a little bit - it's loading a lot of styles, colors, items, etc

[Harmony Ltd.]

FYI, Fillydelphia is under control of the NCR, and its resources are being salvaged/recycled and shipped to the rest of the NCR, as the place has been completely ruined by all the warfare it's seen since Red Eye died: it's cheaper to just recycle all the metal than trying to rebuild everything, especially since Fillydelphia is kinda far away from the rest of the NCR.

Rose Eye operates from Thornbush, an old fort from the Moover Line, a defensive line of fortifications dating back from the start of the Great War, on the southernmost part of the Equestrian Peninsula.

See this map for reference.

Thornbush is South-southeast of Littlehorn and West-southwest of Shattered Hoof Ridge, on the green line marking the frontier, on the southern shore of the river / canal.


By the way Hinds, do you think it would be a good thing to mark Thornbush, Westside and the Encowpment on the map?

[Vinylshadow]

Ah, silly me

And I'd imagine having the locations of major players in the Wasteland marked on a map would be easier to gauge how much of an impact they'd have on the area around them

[O. Hinds]

Well, look at it this way:

What incentives did Littlepip need in order NOT to kill Red Eye?

Hm. I don't actually remember at the moment.

Following, what kind of incentives do you think she would need to NOT kill Rose Eye?


My personal guess is that she would have to estimate that Rose Eye is the lesser evil, enough that she can glance over the slavery to not have to follow with her systematic "shoot on sight" policy with slavers. Because, as has been often brought out, apart from slavery, Rose Eye is a force of peace and order in an area that hasn't been reclaimed back into civilization.

Hm… Then that's the big question then, assuming that the Knights, even in the scenario where they're quite large and strong, won't mount an operation without LittlePip okaying it. Well, this is one of the things I tried to address in that speech I wrote. How well do you think that would work?
Oh, and another thing to consider: Rose Eye dislikes the NCR, but the dislike is mostly because she doesn't think it will work and because of its connection with LittlePip. If the Banner is attacked by members of the Knights of Harmony using the NCR, the Banner will just see it as proof that the Republic serves LittlePip, and the animosity will increase, potentially making an attack on the NCR more likely than it would have been.

Ehh...I think it's more of a naturally-wild/unkempt look rather than dreads
ie, no matter how hard Rose tries, her tail refuses to be contained

Hm, maybe.

Other style?:

That kind of tail, maybe?

I think prefer the previous two, sorry.

By the way Hinds, do you think it would be a good thing to mark Thornbush, Westside and the Encowpment on the map?

Hm, maybe, though it'd be a rather tight cluster at this scale. I've been hoping to get more done with Meleagridis before that, but maybe going ahead would be good.

[Vinylshadow]

Unless you have "Zooms" of specific areas if they become too clustered on the "Overworld" map?

[O. Hinds]

...I... guess you could put it that way?

[Harmony Ltd.]

Well, maybe we could have a map of the NCR's core territories.

Just wondering about Trottingham, as we haven't really worked on it yet. It needs to be reworked into always having been a part of the NCR.

One thing I seem to remember we agreed upon was that it would force the NCR to invest more into their navy that it previously did in metatime.



Unrelated, I've recently seen The Hobbit 2, and Smaug got me thinking about the Dragons, and more specifically Redclaw, the Alpha of the Dragons.

I was thinking of taking inspiration from Smaug for him, if only mostly on the size and shape departments, and also somewhat on the "not taking any of your shit" one.

The major difference with Smaug, of course, being that he's far more sociable (in a dragonlike way), and doesn't enjoy killing weaklings as much as he enjoy seeing them groweling under him.

Was thinking that maybe he might consider other dragons and his serfs as part of his "hoard".

[O. Hinds]

Could be interesting.

[Vinylshadow]

Reminds me of It Takes A Village where all of the residents of Ponyville are part of Spike's hoard, rather then gems and gold

Granted, I can't really see a dragon who wasn't raised by ponies seeing anything living as part of his or her hoard

living things think, and thinking things cause trouble in the long run

Does Draconia have any natural resources that Redclaw would be very attached to, thus making trade difficult?

[O. Hinds]

Quick thought:
Dawn probably looked at the Alliance in her wanderings between leaving the Enclave and finding Cognitum. There's not much of a question about why she didn't stay with the Miliozi, but it took me a bit to think of why she didn't stay with Elusive. The answer? He was indeed exactly the sort of thing she'd been looking for, except for one detail: despite being rich and powerful for over a century, he'd done absolutely nothing to try and help the Equestrian Wasteland (I doubt she'd have known about the thing with the hellhounds, and I don't think that she'd have counted it even if she had) or use his famous wealth, charisma, and intelligence to subvert the GPE. There were, of course, pragmatic reasons to focus attention elsewhere, but Dawn was not known for her pragmatism; she'd just see Elusive ignoring the suffering on the Peninsula and being quite unbothered by letting it continue.

[Harmony Ltd.]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersonic_Low_Altitude_Missile
http://1.1.1.1/bmi/1.bp.blogspot.com/_3YQsV3TbtB0/SKOtmnmlfoI/AAAAAAAAAHA/RlnJKm7PPUI/s1600/Project%2BPluto%2BSLAM_blog.jpg

The Alliance's successor to the SAC-II? Or a discarded PR design?

[O. Hinds]

Probably something that was proposed in Profectum during the war and never got built, or something that someone there idly came up with after the war.  Alliance strategic megaspell weaponry development is focused on trying to get cast megaspells operational (with a minimum of gems and personnel, so it's slow going); in addition to other concerns, Equestria was already nearly at the point of being able to shoot down every missile fired at them (one of the reasons for the Final Assault being launched when it was), and the Alliance has concerns that the NCR could develop the same capability too soon for the development of a new strategic missile to be practical.

[Harmony Ltd.]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VRXy2KQjKh0

A club in Princesses' Heights. Where shady business between the local mob and "reputable Alliance businessmen" cominc from the neighboring A-Town takes place, while tourists, sailors, dockers and the youth of Manehatten drink and dance in the background, a large number of them doped on designer drugs.

[O. Hinds]

Heh, neat idea. :)

By the way, at this point in PH, I imagine the Alliance being rather frustrated. They're not equipped for a major assault on Hoofington on such short notice, and they're aware that their intelligence on the situation is not very good. The continuing cloud cover is also limiting the usefulness of Vetribus overflight, and air strikes, assuming that the Alliance could decide who to target, still risk attack by the GPE.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Interesting point: by this point, two or three month post-SR, and given the ruckus BJ and co. made up there since the beginning of PH, the Alliance has probably sent at least one agent to try and get a picture of what is happening.

Question would be what would be the optimal place for an agent to get a good view of the whole picture?

Megamart and the Finders has the advantage that everyone goes there to trade and exchange stories, but the signal to noise is probably pretty bad.

The Society is mostly shut to foreigners, and probably more concerned with its own internal intrigues than what happens beyond their walls.

Meanwhile, the Rippers are implanted pretty much everywhere in the Hoof and are generally the first to come into the breach when something happen.

And the Collegiate deals with everyone.


So I guess it's down to either the Rippers or the Collegiate?

Send a Miliozi operative to the Rippers, a Profectum student to the Collegiate and an Elusive commercial agent to Megamart and have them working as a cell?


Heh. Now there's a potential side-story idea.

[O. Hinds]

Interesting point: by this point, two or three month post-SR, and given the ruckus BJ and co. made up there since the beginning of PH, the Alliance has probably sent at least one agent to try and get a picture of what is happening.

Aye. Quite possibly a ghoul zebra in a stealth suit. Maybe even one who was prowling around Hoofington two centuries ago.

regarding the rest of your post:
…By "Rippers", do you mean "Reapers"? Otherwise, I'm afraid that I don't know what you're talking about.

The idea of sending uncloaked agents to mingle instead of watching from a distance? Hm. I don't think your proposals for the Reapers and Collegiate would work; the latter would ask too many questions and the former is just too high-profile in general. Sending a someone as a random trader to Megamart might work, though, yeah, and then they could join Blackjack's forces rallying at Chapel when the time comes. And there might be an agent sent to the University as just a random pony. Maybe even a cosplayer.

So…
1: a random Wasteland trader at Megamart, preferably someone with a trade they can practice without moving goods from A to B to explain why they're sticking around. Repairpony expecting a lot of business as more and more fighters pour into the Hoof?
2: a cosplayer of… hm, Velvet, to explain being able to either go out heroing or stay in the University and try to practice medicine (while listening to everything going on).
3: a ghoul zebra, probably with the Miliozi or Profectum, with a stealth suit, and maybe a Stiria (that invisible-beam beam rifle I thought of, if you don't remember), who's been in the espionage business longer than most people on the planet have been alive and is just generally skulking about the Hoof gathering intelligence.
How's this sounding?

[Harmony Ltd.]

Reapers, yes. Sorry 'bout that.

And yeah, that seems right.

[O. Hinds]

Oh, and while Elusive may not be openly taking sides yet, it's a reasonably safe bet that he's getting a "Happy alien supertechnology acquisition day, fellow computer-based lifeform!" present of hardware set up in case Cognitum wins and is correct about the nature of the Tokomare. And that Cognitum would be wise to look at the firmware of the present very carefully before plugging it in. Still, to an extent, Cognitum's total victory would actually be the best of the three possibilities from Elusive's perspective; while they'd still of course scheme against each other to get their own directives to prevail, they're natural allies against the mortal fleshlings. With a victory by Blackjack, all Elusive can offer are the standard trade deals and the like. And while he'd try to negotiate with the Eater, based on what he's heard, he's not terribly optimistic about it.

Pretty much everyone in the Alliance but not the Company would prefer, assuming the Miliozi couldn't bring their forces to bear in time to take the city for the Alliance, that victory go to Blackjack.

[O. Hinds]

Heh.

This short story already had the idea of making Button Mash behind S.A.T.S. and the like. I can't at the moment think of any reason why the rest of the idea wouldn't work.

[Evilgidgit]

I didn't know you could write headcanon for specific characters on this topic. Oooh.

[O. Hinds]

Well, this is really less of a general headcanon thread and more a thread for the shared universe being developed mostly by Harmony and me (and what did happen to Meleagridis?), but so long as there's no conflict, sure, why not?

[Meleagridis]

Well, this is really less of a general headcanon thread and more a thread for the shared universe being developed mostly by Harmony and me (and what did happen to Meleagridis?), but so long as there's no conflict, sure, why not?

Just short for time! And not much to add until I catch up a little, I guess.

Honestly, conflict and butt heads. That's where a lot of interesting ideas are born. I want to hear all kinds of ideas.

[Harmony Ltd.]

^Yup.

Even though we've kind of hijacked the thread with our own headcanons (understatement of the year), all discussion on the our various headcanons on the setting are welcome.

As long, of course, that the discussion stay civil and no one start acting like a dumb sack of shit like Cb5 used to.

[Harmony Ltd.]

(link to picture)

I don't remember... That kind of uniform, was it specific to the Pax Roamana, or do the Remnant also use them?

[O. Hinds]

Just short for time! And not much to add until I catch up a little, I guess.

Personally, it's nice to see you back in here at all. Good luck with catching up and the time thing.

Honestly, conflict and butt heads. That's where a lot of interesting ideas are born. I want to hear all kinds of ideas.

:)

...are you sure?
I know I've not used this thread often, but I thought this was for general FoE worldbuilding. Like when I posted my headcanon about Rainbow Dash.
You guys have taken it a thousand to the nth steps beyond that, but that didn't change the topic's most basic purpose...

Well, you can put them in, but they're probably going to get lost unless they're part of the shared universe. Most of this thread seems to be just Harmony and me talking to each other.

Even though we've kind of hijacked the thread with our own headcanons (understatement of the year), all discussion on the our various headcanons on the setting are welcome.

Yes, there's no official prohibition. It just feels a bit odd having something else in here given the aforementioned hijacking.

I don't expect that anything you write would be a problem, though, swicked; even if we can't fold it in, it would be nice to have.

I don't remember... That kind of uniform, was it specific to the Pax Roamana, or do the Remnant also use them?

My impression has been that the Remnant uses whatever they can get. There might be a few old uniforms or modern imitations in there, though. And I don't know at the moment what the Remnant nationstate would end using.

By the way, funny thought: I wonder if the Remnant and Remnants ever get involved in nomenclature arguments. Someone calls the Remnant the Remnants near a Remnant member, the Remnant zebra says that no, we're the Remnant, they're the Remnants while pointing to an Enclave Remnants pegasus, to which the pegasus replies that no, they're still the Grand Pegasus Enclave...

[Sponsored content]