Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

[Harmony Ltd.]

And now I'm wondering how much of his overall computing power is permanently dedicated to simply monitor everything he can directly perceive, analyzing it and eunning it through its various filters and triggers of "things to keep an eye on".

I'd tend to think it's easily around a quarter to a third of the whole thing...

[O. Hinds]

It's a not-insubstantial portion, yeah. There's a lot of data coming in, even from areas with lower information-gathering-system densities than Elusive City.

[O. Hinds]

Some things that came out of conversation with Somber about the moon in PH's universe:
First...  Actually, probably simpler to quote it.

Oh, quick idle lore question: how similar, in this universe, is the locking-up of life energy in Equestrian gems to the locking-up of life energy in moonstone?

Pretty similar I suppose.  Gems hold magical energy, and magical energy is spiritual energy, and spiritual energy is life energy.

Second, the moon in PH's universe still has, among other things, plenty of aluminium oxide.
These are both things that we could have forged our own way on, of course, but it's nice not having to broad-stroke around things.

There was also some other stuff in the conversation I'd like to talk about, but unfortunately, it's spoilery.  :)

[Harmony Ltd.]

Interesting.

So, when you think about it, Equestrian Arcano-technology is basically based on dark magic? :D

If mean, i the magical properties of gems comes from what is almost literally blowing souls apart, the souls recombining together like sand aggregating into sandstone; then all gem-magic is technically a subset of of soul-magic, right?

[O. Hinds]

Heh, an interesting way of looking at it.  I'm reminded of a story where, if I recall correctly, someone described modern human civilization to a pony as running on poisonous necromantic goo.

[O. Hinds]

Here's something that came up in conversation: Velvet Remedy, as far as we know, never had any family mentioned (beyond being a descendant of Sweetie Belle and having some Apple in her, that is). Who were her parents? Why is she never mentioned worrying about them, or they about her? If she was an orphan, how did that happen in the sealed, pretty safe environment of the Stable?

[Harmony Ltd.]

The easiest explanation, statistically speaking, is that both her parents died a few years prior to the start of FoE. Maybe a decade before? (the way I understand it, she's described in the story to be in her late-20s, early 30s, so a decade before would place her parents' death in her late teens / early twenties, late enough that she wouldn't need any new parental guardian)

I could see her parents dying from some kind of disease, like cancer or something. I think this could explain parts of her personality if her parents died that way: her fascination for Fluttershy, the mare who did all she could to heal and save everyone as she had to tend to her parents; her being learned in first aid and medicine despite being primarily a singer / performer; etc...

I dunno, that's the first thing that came to mind. Completely unrefined. Thoughts?

[O. Hinds]

Well, that does seem to make sense (interesting point about the Fluttershy and medicine connections). It does seem a bit odd, though, that both her parents would be claimed by a contagious disease in an environment like Stable 2. And if it was a genetic disease, directly or involving increased risk of development (and Stable 2 was developing a bit of an inbreeding problem...) that took both her parents... that's probably not especially auspicious for her own future health.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Most likely I'd think it'd be something like exposure to hazardous chemicals (you can't make me believe the orchard ran only on earth pony magic given how sickly it looked like), or radiations (maintenance incident at the reactor level?).

Given how the various stables seemed to be falling apart after two hundred years of continuous use, sometimes at the limits of their capacities, I wouldn't be surprised if that kind of incidents weren't exactly rare.

[O. Hinds]

Hm, another possibility, yes; good point.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Or they could still be alive at the time of FoE but she broke ties with them because ???

There are a number of possibilities. Not sure I want to give a definitive answer on it.

Edit / clarification: this is still a good question and I'm glad you asked it. No sarcasm intended.

[O. Hinds]

Oh, it's fine. And I don't blame you for not wanting to give a definitive answer yet.

On another topic, in chat was proposed the idea of a F.A.D.E. reactor, a high-energy-output megaspell held captive by F.A.D.E. shields. I imagine it might be able to put out a lot more power than a standard reactor (which, by the way, Somber said he thought of as being a bit like gem-fuelled thorium reactors) but last much (much, probably, given that we've many cases of standard reactors still usefully running after centuries without refuelling) less time between refuellings.

Oh, and on another though slightly related note, if it wasn't clear, the Alliance is a lot farther ahead technologically in some areas than in others. Particularly given how little access to Equestrian gems they had, their technology is mostly in part descended from, based on, or in a few cases outright copied from old Pax Roamana designs preserved in Profectum or by the Miliozi. With mostly zebrican designs and zebrican resources to work with, Equestrian technology was somewhat, though not completely, neglected; when the Peninsula opened back up again, in many places they were even with or actually behind the young NCR (and while we don't yet know how Hoofington may affect things, whether or not whatever's left there joins the NCR or another group, I rather doubt that, after Cognitum, they'd jump to join a faction in which Elusive is so prominent).

[O. Hinds]

...Thinking more about Velvet, the relationship between the Followers and the Banner is kind of strange. Both a groups formed by charismatic and highly ideal-driven individuals. Both hope to save the world (produce general prosperity and happiness, prevent another war, etc.), in part by spreading their ideology. Both have history with the Goddess's alicorns, and both (probably) have some as current members. Rose Eye may not approve of Velvet's methods, but she respects her; I'd not be surprised if the same was true in reverse (While Rose Eye, in Velvet's view, might be twisted and dangerous, she does genuinely want to help and does do a lot of good; she keeps more of Red Eye's good qualities than his bad ones, and not only is she not just using ideology as a thin excuse to be a pillaging sadist, she makes sure her followers aren't either. At times, she's probably more willing to work with the Followers than NCR politicians are, though her anti-LittlePip slant colors such relations. And it's not as if Velvet hasn't been willing to work with Red Eye's forces in the past.).

And it only just hit me (as far as I remember) that, given that the Banner were originally thought up with the Legion as inspiration ("the dangerous but not entirely morally black force across the river"), this is a bit interesting when looked at next to Fallout's relationship between the Followers and the Legion.

[Harmony Ltd.]

On another topic, in chat was proposed the idea of a F.A.D.E. reactor, a high-energy-output megaspell held captive by F.A.D.E. shields. I imagine it might be able to put out a lot more power than a standard reactor (which, by the way, Somber said he thought of as being a bit like gem-fuelled thorium reactors) but last much (much, probably, given that we've many cases of standard reactors still usefully running after centuries without refuelling) less time between refuellings.

Interesting. I suppose it'd be most useful in cases where you want a very high power-density ratio. First thought goes to aerospace applications (a bomber with the power output of a literal flying fortress, or a propulsion system for an interplanetary spaceship).
Of course, given the tech-level behind F.A.D.E. shields, I expect it'd take more technological efforts to integrate one into a design.
Plus, what would happen in case of a shield failure means it may not be suitable for a number of applications, or generally deemed unsafe for civilian usage [1].

[1]: I would tend to think that, given the NCR and to a slightly lesser extent the Alliance are still very much a product of the Wasteland, reliability / ease of maintenance would be a core design principle in their technologies.

Oh, and on another though slightly related note, if it wasn't clear, the Alliance is a lot farther ahead technologically in some areas than in others. Particularly given how little access to Equestrian gems they had, their technology is mostly in part descended from, based on, or in a few cases outright copied from old Pax Roamana designs preserved in Profectum or by the Miliozi. With mostly zebrican designs and zebrican resources to work with, Equestrian technology was somewhat, though not completely, neglected; when the Peninsula opened back up again, in many places they were even with or actually behind the young NCR (and while we don't yet know how Hoofington may affect things, whether or not whatever's left there joins the NCR or another group, I rather doubt that, after Cognitum, they'd jump to join a faction in which Elusive is so prominent).

Interesting. I was actually under the appreciation that they had overall technological superiority, but if the two powers actually average some kind of technological parity that's... kinda reassuring for the balance of power?
Although I wonder how exactly the NCR would be more advanced technologically than the Alliance?
It's true they have to some extent access to almost all of the technological base of the Enclave and Geneighva (by 30 SR), which is mostly cloud-technology, levitation technology, Wartime-Equestria cybernetics (Crusader Mainframes) and Wartime-Equestria general engineering (Stables technologies). I guess this could be leveraged against the Alliance if need be, yes...
I suppose that if the Equestrian Alliance were to become a thing, you could see new cities being conceived and integrated as "Stables", for increased resilience in case of conflict? Although this would severely drive up construction costs...

And it only just hit me (as far as I remember) that, given that the Banner were originally thought up with the Legion as inspiration ("the dangerous but not entirely morally black force across the river"), this is a bit interesting when looked at next to Fallout's relationship between the Followers and the Legion.

Although at least Rose Eye doesn't pretend to be something she's not, and as she had to live herself through what would happen to the Legion once Caesar's die, she probably has a number of contingencies plans in place for business to continue as intended when she dies.

[O. Hinds]

Interesting. I suppose it'd be most useful in cases where you want a very high power-density ratio. First thought goes to aerospace applications (a bomber with the power output of a literal flying fortress, or a propulsion system for an interplanetary spaceship).
Of course, given the tech-level behind F.A.D.E. shields, I expect it'd take more technological efforts to integrate one into a design.

Aye.

Plus, what would happen in case of a shield failure means it may not be suitable for a number of applications, or generally deemed unsafe for civilian usage [1].

Oh yes.

[1]: I would tend to think that, given the NCR and to a slightly lesser extent the Alliance are still very much a product of the Wasteland, reliability / ease of maintenance would be a core design principle in their technologies.

Agreed (though of course sometimes it would lose in the tradeoffs anyway).

Interesting. I was actually under the appreciation that they had overall technological superiority, but if the two powers actually average some kind of technological parity that's... kinda reassuring for the balance of power?

Oh, the Alliance has found (or continued the use of) substitutes for a great many things Equestrian technology was used for an in many cases is better than the NCR's starting point at achieving the same effect. There are still some things, though, that are very difficult to duplicate, and even where the most obvious applications of a technology may be surpassed by an equivalent, other applications might not be covered by the equivalent.

Although I wonder how exactly the NCR would be more advanced technologically than the Alliance?
It's true they have to some extent access to almost all of the technological base of the Enclave and Geneighva (by 30 SR), which is mostly cloud-technology, levitation technology, Wartime-Equestria cybernetics (Crusader Mainframes) and Wartime-Equestria general engineering (Stables technologies). I guess this could be leveraged against the Alliance if need be, yes...

Well, the GPE technology goes to both of them, I think; the Alliance has Las Pegasus, after all. The New Enclave (or whatever they're called by others) might have a bit more tech, but I imagine that they're also less inclined to share. The only party I see possibly having a major advantage there is Hoofington, due to the refugees from Thunderhead and Shadowbolt Tower.

I also wasn't counting Geneighva, but that was more because I didn't think of it (and they've still not going to be sharing their best stuff with a foreign power, I expect).

I was thinking that one of the NCR's greatest assets here would be the Twilight Society and the knowledge they've preserved; the Applejack's Rangers might also be able to make a significant contribution.

I suppose that if the Equestrian Alliance were to become a thing, you could see new cities being conceived and integrated as "Stables", for increased resilience in case of conflict? Although this would severely drive up construction costs...

Hm, perhaps.

Although at least Rose Eye doesn't pretend to be something she's not, and as she had to live herself through what would happen to the Legion once Caesar's die, she probably has a number of contingencies plans in place for business to continue as intended when she dies.

Aye.

[Harmony Ltd.]

I was thinking that one of the NCR's greatest assets here would be the Twilight Society and the knowledge they've preserved; the Applejack's Rangers might also be able to make a significant contribution.

It's true that I remember saying somewhere (or at least alluding to) that the archives in Tenpony and other Twilight Society's hideouts (if they exist) cover the majority, if not all, of the former Ministry of Arcane Sciences' technological archives - what is lost probably probably having been lost to data corruption / archive decay after over two centuries, or the places they were stored in simply being blown up without any known backup existing =>
Basically, that'd be the case of the most up-to-date R&D of the MAS at the time the bombs fell (stored at the various R&D sites), or ultra-secret research projects (see: Gardens of Equestria).

As for the Rangers' archives, covering the findings and designs of the Ministry of Wartime Technology and associated corporations... Due to the far less centralized nature of the MWT (most of the R&D and all of the actual engineering and building being handled by the various corporations), my guess would be that they have managed to hold to less knowledge than the Twilight Society could with its centralized archives.

Most probably, due to the nature and ideology of the Steel Rangers, my first guess would be that their archives should be very rich in the weapons & military-grade technologies, but much less rich, or even lacking, in such departments as civil engineering, or more generally consumer-grade and commercial-grade technologies. I'd tend to imagine they made huge efforts to preserve medical technologies, if only because of their military applications.

Thoughts?

[O. Hinds]

That seems to make a pretty good amount of sense. And it does indeed fit with the NCR starting with more knowledge in some areas, I think. Of course, they'd still have to build up the resources needed to use that knowledge, but having it is better than nothing.

In the Alliance, for two hundred years Equestrian gems pretty much only came from salvage or underground (literally) trade with hellhounds, making a key component in most Equestrian arcane technology rare and expensive. Most of the knowledge the Alliance inherited came from the Pax Roamana; Elusive had some, but much of the knowledge of a single company's work (a lot of which you can't even use due to a shortage of vital materials) doesn't compare very well to pretty much an entire country's knowledge that you have plenty of vital resources for (albeit often other things that have to be shot off first). Gems become a lot easier to get when they can start being mined in the Peninsular territory the Miliozi claim post-SR, but the NCR still probably has at least as easy a time (and probably a significantly easier time) getting them.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Yeah. And the Alliance still has a significantly larger / better industrial base to start off with, making the whole R&D cycle easier.

Though I'm wondering if some techs (in the Alliance or the NCR), one way or another, might make prototyping easier?

Stalliongrad's technologies would be a candidate, but by the time anyone puts their hands on Stalliongrad's Fabricators, they have pretty much won the industrial race anyway.

Do you see any tech that could help reduce R&D costs?

[O. Hinds]

Yeah. And the Alliance still has a significantly larger / better industrial base to start off with, making the whole R&D cycle easier.

True, but they also have more invested in their current systems. Any new Equestrian-style arcane technology has to not just workable but better than or outside the capabilities of the already-extant alternatives. And it has to look like it might be to even get developed in the first place. The NCR, starting from scratch, doesn't have that, and they also have some incentive to deliberately do things differently than the Alliance.

Though I'm wondering if some techs (in the Alliance or the NCR), one way or another, might make prototyping easier?

Stalliongrad's technologies would be a candidate, but by the time anyone puts their hands on Stalliongrad's Fabricators, they have pretty much won the industrial race anyway.

Do you see any tech that could help reduce R&D costs?

Hm. Well, Elusive can code simulations and Profectum has its already-established R&D systems, but I'm not sure just how much better that would make them at this than the NCR. Though of course, part of that is not being sure what the NCR might have.

On another note, I happened to talk to Somber a bit more about the moonstone thing. It looks like, in PH's universe (if I'm remembering and interpreting correctly), it's definitely possible to use moonstone to substitute for Equestrian gems, and maybe even to use the moonstone straight. However, unprocessed, it would be unevenly effective; the uses a give sample would be suited for would be strongly affected by what particular sort of spiritual energy predominated in that sample. Wide use of moonstone to substitute for Equestrian gems would require either a large sorting system (and I'm not sure of the feasibility of that; I only thought of it after the conversation with Somber and so didn't ask at the time) with the possibility of shortages or an industrial reprocessing operation. The industrial reprocessing would be possible, but Somber said that shamans would consider it horrific on a "Maybe we should look into ecoterrorism" level. Even without that reprocessing, just the mass lunar mining and even the use at all could draw criticism.
Thoughts about how we might want to apply this to the shared universe?

[Harmony Ltd.]

Putting the lunar-dust sorting / reprocessing facilities on the moon itself, for starter, would look like a good way to avoid sabotage. And if you're good at bluffing / hiding your operations, when your rockets come back to Equus with their cargo holds full of gem, you can simply say you mined them on the Moon.

After all, who's to say that the process that created gems on the Equestrian peninsula couldn't also have taken place on the Moon? I mean, the whole place is MADE of magic, so to speak.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Hm. Well, Elusive can code simulations

And now I'm wondering just how much resources it'd take for the NCR / Geneighva to start mass-producing Crusader Maneframes.

I mean, given the description made of them in the story, they look like they're REALLY powerful. Or maybe the thing that made them special was simply their ability to interact in a complex way with spells / cast them?

...

Oh. Oooooh...

Nooooow I can see Elusive really wanting to get his metaphorical hooves on a Crusader mainframe.

[O. Hinds]

Putting the lunar-dust sorting / reprocessing facilities on the moon itself, for starter, would look like a good way to avoid sabotage. And if you're good at bluffing / hiding your operations, when your rockets come back to Equus with their cargo holds full of gem, you can simply say you mined them on the Moon.

After all, who's to say that the process that created gems on the Equestrian peninsula couldn't also have taken place on the Moon? I mean, the whole place is MADE of magic, so to speak.

Heh, interesting idea...
I'd already been pondering the idea of an Alliance moon colony. Of course, there's one big problem: Who runs it? Once again, Alliance internal politics rear their head. Elusive would want it to be a Company town, the Miliozi another city of their own. That problem could be solved by compromising and making it a Port-Maple-like power... but with control over the Alliance's gem supply, it would probably be on a fast track to being a third major power. Still, that might be the most likely; among other things, a less ideologically extreme power is much less likely to start throwing around non-empty threats to burn down the planet as soon as they have a fully independently viable position on the moon. And while Elusive or the Miliozi probably wouldn't do that, it's probably believable enough that they might to cause concern.

And now I'm wondering just how much resources it'd take for the NCR / Geneighva to start mass-producing Crusader Maneframes.

Given how few of them Equestria made, I imagine that they're rather expensive.

I mean, given the description made of them in the story, they look like they're REALLY powerful. Or maybe the thing that made them special was simply their ability to interact in a complex way with spells / cast them?

...

Oh. Oooooh...

Nooooow I can see Elusive really wanting to get his metaphorical hooves on a Crusader mainframe.

Yeah. Once someone has the idea of using moonstone for gems, and once it's actually confirmed that that's practical, the space program, in my current thinking, is almost certainly going to be the big activity of the Alliance for some time (barring foreign interruptions). The Alliance wants gems for computers, for reactors, for magical energy weapons, for talismans... and that's not even counting the other benefits of getting into space.
(And we know, as far as I recall, pretty much nothing at the moment about the other(?) planets in the Equus system.)

[Harmony Ltd.]

Well, at least this provides a good backdrop for a possible future expansion of the setting in space, later chronologically.

Though if people start colonizing the Moon, it's going to be interesting to see how they're going to interact with the locals (I hold on to the hope that the Astrostable survives PH and continue to thrive); and the possible intrigues that may be born around the ruins of the Lunar Palace:

- Among other things, it's possible that there's still flux there (from Tom's launching system), and given the Equestrian Wasteland was cleaned of it by the Gardens, and unless some parts of Zebrica have been contaminated with the stuff during the war, that'd make it one of the only remaining source of Taint in the world; short of finding a new God of Chaos and imprisoning them to harvest flux. And given the possible applications of the stuff by dedicated people... Yeah.

- The place is choke full of mystical energy remaining from Nightmare Moon's imprisonment. I wouldn't be surprised if the place was haunted or even literally cursed. Or if it had some potential for a number of black magic rituals to be performed. And add to that the mystical nature of the moon itself and the possibility that the ambient soul-energy could be used to boost even more any dark-magic megaspell summoned there... People could get into their head to build a successor to Horizon.

[O. Hinds]

Aye, a lot of interesting potential there (though I'm not sure just how likely it would be that the Lunar Palace site is useful), and even more if the lunar mining operation has to have its nature disguised.

But yeah, that's in the future. I'm not sure just how far along the space program is in 30 SR, but, as far as the moon goes, they might have landed a few people on it. Landing few lunar probes, maybe... a small space station (which I already have some ideas for) possibly... satellites possibly, but... yeah, it all may still be undetermined, but the Alliance pretty much definitely doesn't have any settlement on the moon yet, much less a massive mining and industrial colony.

(Sorry if there are mistakes in this; I'm pretty tired at the moment.)

[Harmony Ltd.]

I'm wondering if the emergence of Red Eye and his subsequent influence on the Wasteland (establishing trade routes as a major trading partner, bringing some amount of order to the Wasteland, dealing with the most troublesome of the Raiders in his Sphere of Influence) didn't, to some extent, prepare the terrain for the NCR; by planting the seeds of an Equestrian society larger than just a group of a few isolated communities linked together by a few caravans, in conflict with each others over limited resources (see: bandits, raiders, Steel Rangers).

Because, as disgusting as his own brand of industrialized slavery was, it did create a lot of demand for slaves, which kicked up the business of slaving communities, which in turn had to step up their own operations (see: the commercial relationship between Old Appleloosa and New Appleloosa before Littlepip). Not to mention all the (other) trades surrounding Red Eyes activities in Fillydelphia and the rest of the Wasteland.

Basically, he was successful in kickstarting the new Equestrian society / economy. It just so happens that the Day of Sunshine and Rainbows occured when it did, leaving to Gawdyna Grimfeathers the opportunity to pick up what pieces she could from the remains of his Empire to build the New Canterlot Republic.


Of course:
1 - Even if it didn't happen like that, I wouldn't be surprised if Rose Eye saw it this way
2 - And -IF- it happened like that, especially if it happened like that, I'm sure the NCR would do all it can to "not think about it"


Thoughts?

[Harmony Ltd.]

leaving to Gawdyna Grimfeathers the opportunity to pick up what pieces she could from the remains of his Empire to build the New Canterlot Republic.

Ironically enough, without the Bitter War, I doubt the NCR would have been as successful as it is in this timeline. Without such a strong catalyst forcing people on the surface to unite together against an existential threat, and pushing people to merge their communities together into larger, more easily defensible "towns" (with all the benefits this brings), I have difficulties picturing how the NCR could have managed to grow so much as to being put on the Alliance's radar as a near-peer power.

If anything, I would have expected the NCR to have been swallowed by the Alliance by now; if only because in our current timeline the Alliance wouldn't have risked being dragged into the Bitter War, whereas in an alternate-timeline where Operation Cauterize dies down but the Enclave still implode, I have no trouble imagining the Alliance just going "Fuck it" and simply straight up annexing most of the Peninsula.

[O. Hinds]

That's a definitely possibility. Probably something that plenty of academics and partisans (the politicking kind, not the irregular warfare kind), and partisan academics, have argued about in-universe. And I think a good argument can be made.
I was at one point idly pondering writing a Rose Eye Speech on this, actually: what LittlePip did, up until actually getting into the S.P.P., could be viewed as not qualitatively new. There were plenty of heroes before her. Plenty of heroes who never fell to evil, who did genuine good right up until they died in battle or were forced to retire by injuries and the like. Plenty of people Spike saw who might have been valid Bearers, though he never managed to get a full set together until LittlePip. And yet, when she came out of Stable 2, she was greeted by a bleak, dangerous, fractured Wasteland under a cloud ceiling. Those past heroes did their bits of local good, and the Wasteland smiled, patted them on the head, let them and those they protected have a few moments of happiness, and continued on past, business as usual. Now, perhaps LittlePip's success was due to various other things that had been building up over time. A slowly widening rift in the Steel Rangers. The Goddess, who would surely be pursuing her own plans without Red Eye. The GPE, which, while provoked by Red Eye, would have been present, and steadily decaying, in his absence. Even Ditzy setting up and building her business. It's possible that all these things just happened to come together for her, and that Red Eye's empire was just another component, one not strictly necessary. (This bit, of course, would probably be downplayed a bit in Rose Eye's speech.) However, with how slow the changes were (and, in Ditzy's case, given that she wasn't anywhere near the first trader in the Wasteland and hadn't made it really big yet), it's also really easy to point to the sudden, obvious, and big difference between the time of LittlePip and the times of past heroes. That being, of course, Red Eye. And his plans seemed to be pretty much working. By the time LittlePip meets him, probably the only powers (included in the original FoE) that might cause him to stumble were the Goddess and the GPE. And the former he was actually allied with, even if both expected a backstab at the first opportune moment. Now, both of those were brought down by LittlePip... but it's conceivable that, if she hadn't been there, an actual agent of Red Eye could have dealt with the Goddess the same way she did. Or just smuggled the bomb in, kept it there long enough to force the Goddess to fight the GPE, and then set it off. As for the GPE, he was preparing to fight them already, and they were only provoked to the extremes of Cauterize by LittlePip spooking them. His victory wasn't certain, but he had a definite fighting chance. He had mass industry. He had region-wide trade networks and power projection. He had active R&D proceeding straight into production and deployment. He had a public education system. These are things not seen in the Equestrian Wasteland since before the bombs, things that would have been unfamiliar, in likely often distasteful to the point of violence (if not for the things themselves than for the taxes and other freedom restrictions needed for them), to many Wastelanders before him. Would the NCR have had nearly so much success establishing its civilization if so many aspects of it had not already been forced on a recalcitrant Wasteland at gunpoint? Those under him or opposed to him may have hated parts of his methods, but it was obvious that his methods made him strong; there's a strong temptation to salvage what one can from them, if only so that others don't get to it first and strike while one's weak.
And this is kind of rambly and hopefully not too incoherent. Sorry; I'm tired.

Good point about the role of the Bitter War, too. The war forced the NCR together while at the same time keeping the Alliance out.

And yeah, I imagine that it's not very popular in the NCR to attribute the Republic's strength to Red Eye and the Bitters. :)

[Harmony Ltd.]

Btw I just realized that it stands to reason that the area seized by the Miliozi on the Peninsula after the Enclave's implosion must have come under attack from the Bitters at some point or another during the Bitter War.

Probably not as much (as the rest of the Equestrian Wasteland), far from it, but I wouldn't be surprised if a few Bitter commanders did try to "cauterize" Miliozi outposts in the area - maybe in the hope of seizing some of their hardware?

I dunno. I simply realized that even if the Alliance stayed neutral in that conflict, it's highly probable it still came under attack during the war.

I suppose the question is: what concessions did Elusive had to make to stop the Miliozi from just saying "fuck it" and going in hardcore?

[Harmony Ltd.]

Inspiration for Geneighva / Stable City:

Coober Pedy, Australia

[O. Hinds]

...Okay, see, here's the thing. The Miliozi have spent about two centuries looking up at and working out how to best fight the GPE. The Bitters are very similar to the GPE (hardware, tactics, etc.), except that they're ruthless fanatics with no civilians and a stated desire to wipe out all surface life (which of course includes the Miliozi). They can't be traded or negotiated with; they can only be fought, and fought, quite likely, until there are none left. The rules of engagement in a fight between them and the Miliozi would consist, on both side, of "Win", and the result of two heavily armed groups of extremists trying to wipe out and out-fanatic each other would likely not be pleasant for anyone else involved, or just nearby.

If the Bitters are smart, they won't attack the Miliozi, not while still fighting the NCR. If they do fight, the other Alliance powers will want to end the conflict as soon as possible (but without letting the Miliozi gain so much territory for so few losses that the Alliance's internal power balance is upset). None of the Alliance powers besides the Miliozi have holdings on the Peninsula, and the Miliozi, well, see above. Open come Profectum's vaults, and then probably on comes a three-way war with the NCR objecting to friendly Miliozi and Company strategies like "Just make the entire surface glow again, but this time turn the skies pink to cut off escape" and "Get some Cloud-treated broadcasters on Vetribus-deployed drones, and maybe even some speakers on parachute-equipped RPGs". (The hellhounds would possibly like those plans, though; the Alliance still wants gems, after all!) And, of course, the intelligence of the Bitters is perhaps not the best keystone on which to have depend the aversion of a second scorching of the Peninsula.

I can actually see Elusive making some quiet concessions to the Bitters to avoid this, hoping that the bribery will sway those immune to good sense long enough for the NCR to kill them. Don't attack Alliance territory, and if you know that some of your more suicidal comrades are going to anyway, tell Elusive so he can make sure a unit run by him just happens to be there to intercept them. Las Pegasus would probably be useful in this.
...And this might also tie in with your "Some Bitters fled to the Alliance" idea from earlier.
Of course, both the Miliozi and the NCR would no doubt be very pleased with Elusive if they learned of this and traced it to him. Though, ironically for that pairing, the Miliozi might well be annoyed at his aid to the Bitters ending up making the NCR strong enough to let him persuasively argue against just invading them. The Miliozi finding out after the end of the war would probably be when concessions would be useful to soothe them, which probably wouldn't be too hard; while they didn't get to fight the Bitters and NCR, they also didn't lose any strength to losses. And the Miliozi do recognize keeping the Alliance strong as important. If the NCR found out after the war, well, there're not likely to attack the Alliance (and, more to the point, the Miliozi), but I would expect Company business to enter a sudden and very steep decline in NCR territory.

As for concessions to the Miliozi to make them not respond to Bitter attacks... a bit hard to say. He can keep things a bit in check that way, but really, well, if the Bitters actually deliberately kill Miliozi and destroy or capture Miliozi property in Miliozi territory... Then things get difficult. The Miliozi know that they would take losses in the war, certainly; there are reasons why they're not striking first. But at the same time, a great many of them would see this war in particular as an especially pure example of their ultimate purpose. As I said above, no civilians, no negotiation, no rules of engagement, nothing but two great armies of zealots each fighting for the simple objective of the utter annihilation of the other (though if the Bitters surrendered, the Miliozi might be persuaded to be merciful). After two centuries of training every member of society for war, of telling themselves that "soldier" is the foundation of their identities and that surrender to a foreign enemy is never under any circumstances acceptable for them, well, you can probably see how it would be tempting for them to, when faced with such a "perfect" enemy, just tell Elusive and all his "I can't trade with corpses" talk to stuff it so that Miliozi can do what the Miliozi are.
...
And now I'm wondering if a rare few of those Bitters who fled to the Alliance might end up joining the exclusive club of members of the Miliozi who weren't born into it. The differences between the two groups might end up being too great for that, but there are a fair number of similarities.

Inspiration for Geneighva / Stable City:

Coober Pedy, Australia

Wow, neat; thanks for sharing that.

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