Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

[Harmony Ltd.]

On an unrelated note, I don't know if I've brought this up before, but I was thinking there may be a rivalry between the Twilight Society (TS) and the New Canterlot Institute of Technology (NCIT).

Mostly competing for R&D funds, but also over licensing stuff:

While the TS is funded in large part from a constellation of corporations owned by members of the Society which are selling products conceived through TS R&D ; most of the products are only in a sellable state because the NCIT has gone over the highly theoretical and mostly arcane research made by the TS and refined it enough to be manufactured and marketed from and for the NCR's industrial infrastructure. And the NCIT being a non-profit academy, they live through grants, patents, royalties and licensing rights.

So basically, while they need each others to survive in their symbiotic relationship, they're also pretty much constantly at each others throats in order to try and squeeze the last possible bits out of every contracts / agreements.


Which is a dynamic I'm sure some enterprising soul could come to try and exploit.

[Harmony Ltd.]

New Canterlot Academy, my bad. NCIT was the old,(un) original name.

More info in the Wasteland Companion linked in my signature, as one of the NCR's "sub-faction".

[Harmony Ltd.]

The relevant quote:

New Canterlot Academy

While the Twilight Society descend from the old Ministry of Arcane Science, the New Canterlot Academy was founded by Applejack Ranger scribes, and is tasked with the practical applications of science and technology. While the Twilight Society works in the realm of spells and abstract magic, the New Canterlot Academy works on applying the theoretical discoveries of the Twilight Society and other research groups.

It is, among other things, responsible for the NCR’s research and development efforts on talismans, working to rebuild the industrial infrastructure necessary to mass-produce the most-complex pieces of arcano-technologic equipment.

It is also at the forefront of the NCR’s research efforts on cybernetics, be it from building more and more elaborate maneframes with domestic, non Stable-Tec technologies, or by building cybernetic body prosthetics or outright augmentations.

Contrary to the Twilight Society, though, the New Canterlot Academy is a purely academic structure, and enjoy neither its political or economic power. On the other hand, it lives through the royalties it earn from its designs.

As such, the New Canterlot Academy takes a dim view of industrial espionage or counterfeiters.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Also, I've been saying for a whike now that I think that there's very little unemployement for pegasi in the NCR; and re-reading my notes (the Wasteland Companion), this might in-fact be because a large portion of the Volunteers might have been hired by Ditzy Doo's "Absolutely Everything Shipping Company" during or after the war.

Plus, the fact that the Volunteers were by far the most educated demographic in the NCR and got to turn that to their advantage both during and after the war.

I expect they represent a large part of the upper echelons in the AESC and the Followers. Also there's probably quite a bit of them in the New Canterlot Academy, which might have interesting implications (ex: one of the characters of a derivative fic from this setting I have on the backburner being an old Ex-Volunteer veteran from the Battle of Manehatten now working as a researcher / professor at the University of Manehatten.).

This would also give the post-SR world another reason to dislike Pegasi, thinking about it. (Class Warfare~~).

[O. Hinds]

Disclaimer: I got about four hours of sleep again, so sorry about any typos I missed.

As for the consequence in the setting, it's obvious there at least one being which is going to be very interested in the concept.

Yes.  :)
Among other things, it probably means that the Alliance got cast megaspells working rather earlier than we were thinking (particularly since, IIRC, we were thinking that they might not have gotten them practical at all yet).  And the fact that Elusive would be the one with the most control over such powerful strategic weapons seems likely to have some effect on the internal dynamics.

One interesting question would be to know if enchanted code would have a recognizable imprint that "mundane" info / cybernetic system can recognize, or if it is totally transparent until activated / triggered.

Because if it's the later, this could actually be one way to bring down one of the most important player on the board...

And that, of course, is indeed the potential flipside.  I don't think that anyone ever tried scanning the EC-1101 program for the EC-1101 megaspell that we heard of; either the possibility didn't occur to them at all or they already knew.  There's also the question of whether a filter system can be built that can recognize it even if the fully "mundane" systems can't.

Hm.  I'd be inclined to suspect that Equestrian-style computer hardware, at least, could recognize it if it was looking for it, though.  There's already a lot of magic involved there.  If so, you wouldn't be able to completely destroy Elusive with this, but you'd still be able to potentially do a lot of damage if filters weren't workable and in place (and you didn't manage to get around them).

Though there's also the question of whether the magical effects can be triggered at all by running the code through a nonmagical (normalized to the world) computer.

regarding the TS/NCA rivalry:
Interesting.

Which is a dynamic I'm sure some enterprising soul could come to try and exploit.

Yes.  :)

Plus, the fact that the Volunteers were by far the most educated demographic in the NCR and got to turn that to their advantage both during and after the war.

Hm, good point.  They're probably not quite the most educated individuals, but their numbers are far larger than those of the few (some of the elite of the Twilight Society, probably some ghouls, perhaps some alicorns, etc.) above them.

I expect they represent a large part of the upper echelons in the AESC and the Followers. Also there's probably quite a bit of them in the New Canterlot Academy, which might have interesting implications

Aye.  Especially since some of those pegasi might have family or old friends who joined groups other than the NCR, and perhaps their old loyalties are a bit more real than their new ones.  Even if there isn't even one single pegasus actually doing that, the fact that I thought of it just now so quickly probably means that a lot of people in-universe, on multiple sides, have thought about it as well.

This would also give the post-SR world another reason to dislike Pegasi, thinking about it. (Class Warfare~~).

And another good point!  And probably tied into the above, since it's sort of attractive to think that those pegasi who still manage to be above you, even after the skies were supposed to be opened and all that, aren't really on your side...
Which of course just intensifies the welcoming atmosphere towards pegasi in the NCR and could in no way be a self-fulfilling prophecy.  :D

But yeah, given the education, the number of people in the NCR who want pegasi for one reason or another, and the number of pegasi who've left, probably not hard to find a job.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Re magical code:

The question is: how does copy-pasting influence the magic? Is magic conserved but shared between both new halves, or does only one carry the whole spell?

If it's the former... maybe a way to sneak magical code in could be to cut it in so many different parts that the magic becomes so weak as to get below detectable thresholds, and then re-assemble it. Or let it fester in the host system, slowly but surely altering it.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Also, the pegasi discussion just inspired me more plot points regarding the character I talked about.

Spoiler:

[O. Hinds]

The question is: how does copy-pasting influence the magic? Is magic conserved but shared between both new halves, or does only one carry the whole spell?

Good question.

If it's the former... maybe a way to sneak magical code in could be to cut it in so many different parts that the magic becomes so weak as to get below detectable thresholds, and then re-assemble it. Or let it fester in the host system, slowly but surely altering it.

Hm, possibly. That probably wouldn't work in a system that was constantly on alert for that sort of thing, but it might be able to get through a filter to an area without appropriate internal protections.

Also, the pegasi discussion just inspired me more plot points regarding the character I talked about.

Spoiler:

The other squadmates being non-pegasi? Could be interesting, yes.

[Harmony Ltd.]

I can see some interesting dialog options between him and the protagonist (one of the squadmates that aren't dead).[/spoiler]

The other squadmates being non-pegasi?  Could be interesting, yes.

It was the Diversity Squad Fire-Team :v

Spoiler:

[O. Hinds]

Ah. Was that deliberate? In-universe, I mean.

If so, I imagine the idea of a "Where are they now?" piece would make politicians cough uncomfortably.
"See how good people in the NCR are at working together! See how, um, the pegasus gets a nice upper-middle-class life while all the non-pegasi wallow in poverty and/or die? Um, okay, maybe don't see that bit?"

[Harmony Ltd.]

Nah, it wasn't a PR move or exceptional. Way I see it, the NCRAF made a conscious effort in its early day to mix as much ass possible people from various background in order to avoid a possible fragmentation of the forces from racial, tribal, ideological or whatever tensions. And as a way to build cohesion between the conscript / citizens of the NCR.

Though they've kind of gone back from that in a certain measure these days, as mixing flyers with non-flyers down at the squad level has proved to be less than optimal on the field.

[O. Hinds]

Ah, that makes sense; thanks.

[Harmony Ltd.]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%C3%A9rotrain

Using cloud technology, I could see something like that being used by the NCR for inter-city high-speed / high cadence commute; especially with the added benefit that it doesnt require scarce metal to build the line itself, only concrete or similar material.

I need to study that a bit, but I like the idea of the "Aerobus" actually being that, and not as I first envisioned a literally flying bus skywagon.

[O. Hinds]

I've not heard "high cadence" in the context of transportation before, nor was the research I've done just now fruitful. What do you mean?

Regarding the actual idea, though, interesting! Of course, it would add yet another advantage to pegasi (and griffins) in the NCR. :)

Also, are you proposing that they'd not restore the rail lines at all, even for freight, or that they'd just not restore/upgrade them to high speed capability?

[Harmony Ltd.]

"High cadence": there's very often a train arriving at or departing from the station. Cadence = frequency. Frenchism.

As for your question, while my first impulse would be to say it's the later (using classic rail line for fret and the aerobus lines for passengers), a quick thought about the basic motive behind the technology (saving resources by -not- having to rebuild the old lines, and being able to recycle them as they're probably damaged beyond repair anyway), I think they'd try to find a way to make it work for freight transport anyway.

It'd probably look like something midway between actual rail freight, and road truck freight. With relatively short trains carrying only a (relatively to normal trains) limited load, but with more frequency.

As for the technology used, I guess in the very beginning they'd just be on road-wheels (relatively limited speed, around 80-100km/h, but still far better than what they'd do on the mostly destroyed roads), while later evolving to use either cloud-levitation or levitation talismans, whichever is cheaper.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Another reason for usibg road wheels first (making thel basically a mix between trucks and trains):

Let's remember what the NCR' technological and industrial basis is. The "trains" would probably be steam powered (either ala old-timey fashion, or through steam turbines driving an electric transmission system for the biggest / fastest models of engine).

[O. Hinds]

"High cadence": there's very often a train arriving at or departing from the station. Cadence = frequency. Frenchism.

Ah, thanks.

s for your question, while my first impulse would be to say it's the later (using classic rail line for fret and the aerobus lines for passengers), a quick thought about the basic motive behind the technology (saving resources by -not- having to rebuild the old lines, and being able to recycle them as they're probably damaged beyond repair anyway), I think they'd try to find a way to make it work for freight transport anyway.

It'd probably look like something midway between actual rail freight, and road truck freight. With relatively short trains carrying only a (relatively to normal trains) limited load, but with more frequency.

Ah, neat. And driven by alcohol-fueled steam engines. :)

I'm wondering how this would affect the operation of NETC (the New Equestria Transportation Company, a subsidiary of the Elusive Company), though. Of course, that's possibly another reason the NCR decided on the new system: it cuts away a lot of the competitive edge the Alliance would have (and could even serve as an even more dramatic version of a strategic break of gauge in the event of war).

As for the technology used, I guess in the very beginning they'd just be on road-wheels (relatively limited speed, around 80-100km/h, but still far better than what they'd do on the mostly destroyed roads)

Pneumatic tires on concrete guideways, you mean? Would the cloud/levitation system be a planned upgrade or an unplanned one?
And would the guideways be mostly elevated, or would that only be over certain places such as roads? Full elevation would be more expensive but make things easier for ground traffic and animals (and reduce the risk of collisions).

Let's remember what the NCR' technological and industrial basis is. The "trains" would probably be steam powered (either ala old-timey fashion, or through steam turbines driving an electric transmission system for the biggest / fastest models of engine).

...Yes, but how would that favor road wheels?

[Harmony Ltd.]

"How would that favor road wheels": direct traction on the concrete instead of having to use propellers to generate thrust. When your energy source is steam, that seems more efficient.

As for the tracks, I'm thinking sort of U shape instead of an inverted T one, kind of like the Japanese maglev.

I think the levitation idea would be a long-term vision for the network, kept in reserve for the future once the NCR has resources to spend on such a project, with the tracks already being built that idea in the back of their mind.

As for surelevation, way I see it, in the country the tracks would be a ground level, only being elevated when approaching crossings (or even just having the road go over the train track and not the reverse); and elevating the tracks in urbanized area. Still in the idea of saving up resources during construction.

[O. Hinds]

"How would that favor road wheels": direct traction on the concrete instead of having to use propellers to generate thrust. When your energy source is steam, that seems more efficient.

Oh, you mean as opposed to starting with the hover system, not as opposed to steel-on-steel. That makes sense, at least for the early engines.

As for the tracks, I'm thinking sort of U shape instead of an inverted T one, kind of like the Japanese maglev.

I think the levitation idea would be a long-term vision for the network, kept in reserve for the future once the NCR has resources to spend on such a project, with the tracks already being built that idea in the back of their mind.

Those make sense.

surelevation

My dictionary and I do not appear to be familiar with that word.

As for surelevation, way I see it, in the country the tracks would be a ground level, only being elevated when approaching crossings (or even just having the road go over the train track and not the reverse); and elevating the tracks in urbanized area. Still in the idea of saving up resources during construction.

That makes sense.
Of course, there are some unintended (or "unintended") side effects. That scheme would make things difficult for railroads (such as the Alliance might use, for instance) and, depending on where the crossings are placed, for small caravan companies who aren't on the new system (such as competitors the people running the system would rather get rid of, for instance).

[Harmony Ltd.]

By the way, once PH is over, I'm probably going to want to "reboot" this headcanon.

By which I mean rebuilding it from the ground up on a clean foundation.

Some things may be lost in translation (maybe, we just don't know yet), but I think it's worth it to have everything just naturally flowing and evolving without needing to shoehorn retcons here and there.


What I have in mind is: let's keep everything Pre-SR as it is, and only change things Post-SR, in accordance with what happens in PH (or at least what parts of it we choose to assimilate).


Thoughts?

[O. Hinds]

...Hm. Not sure about that. I mean, a lot of things, yeah, no problem, but, for instance, the Moojave and Rose Banner stuff are mostly post-SR and probably wouldn't be affected by PH anyway. There's a fair bit of bias towards the old stuff that could be significantly difficult to fight. And I'm worried about how to file the old and new stuff.
Also, isn't this a bit premature now? We don't know what we'll need/want to accommodate; oughtn't we to make this decision once we have that information, rather than committing ourselves now?

[Harmony Ltd.]

I didn't mean to say "erase everything, start anew", but simply going back over everything to see if it stays internally consistent.

And I know it's premature, which is why I'm using the conditionnal mode ("I may..."). Raising the idea to see if it's popular or not, so to speak.

[O. Hinds]

Oh, yeah, that's fine; we'd probably have done it anyway even without an explicit proposal like that. I just read it as "erase everything, start anew", more or less. :)

[Harmony Ltd.]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIM-10_Bomarc

Did this thing inspire the SAC-II?

[Harmony Ltd.]

Random notes before I forget:

- We should maybe make a list at the end of PH of the named characters from FoE and PH who are still alive then. Maybe Silentcarto could help?

- Latest chapter reminded me that Sasha (the cyber-hellhound / Frank Horrigan expy) as a hellhound should be able to tunnel and use tactics such as those displayed in the chapter during combat. Dunno if the fact she wasn't raised by hellhounds or dogs may have had a consequence on her capability to master this ability.

- The current force structure of the NCR is pretty much that of a Middle-Eastern country (three-tiered, with a lot of barely competent mooks). It's most probably going to be slaughtered in a straight-up fight with a peer power with a modern and well-trained force (I'd look at the Miliozi there, but they aren't even -peers-...). The NCRAF leadership is probably aware of it. And this probably causes them to be even more on the lookout for megaspells, special weapons, and other Trump Cards to avoid straight-up, open battle fights.

[Harmony Ltd.]

RE weaving magic into computer code...

Thinking about the issue of magically-infused code, I'm inclined to think of it like enchanted parchments:

The final magical effect on a parchment (of the ready-to-use kind like you have in some videogames and D&D) is dependent on the runes written on it, the way they are written and maybe also sometimes the materials (ink, etc...) with which the runes are written.

To transpose this to our present setting, I would think that the code itself is what code the magic. Maybe through the use of some sort of literally magical programming language? I don't know.

Anyway, the effect would be that splitting the code would have for effect of simply breaking the magic - kind of like would happen with real code if you just cut it.

... Could even have unintended effects, depending on how it's written. Would certainly be interesting to see how a magical spell could bug out at runtime.


Inversely, combining effects wouldn't be as simple as "adding" the two bits of code. Depending on how the magical code is written, some parts may be uncompatible, or the whole thing may need to be rewritten for it to work.


... And now I'm starting to think about the structure and models of magical programming languages, object-oriented versus procedural approaches, and my mind is getting full of fucks.

[O. Hinds]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIM-10_Bomarc

Did this thing inspire the SAC-II?

No, though there do seem to be some similarities. The SAC-II was mostly inspired by the Regulus II.

We should maybe make a list at the end of PH of the named characters from FoE and PH who are still alive then. Maybe Silentcarto could help?

Maybe, though for PH, at least, there's also Icy Shake's doc.

Latest chapter reminded me that Sasha (the cyber-hellhound / Frank Horrigan expy) as a hellhound should be able to tunnel and use tactics such as those displayed in the chapter during combat. Dunno if the fact she wasn't raised by hellhounds or dogs may have had a consequence on her capability to master this ability.

Aye.

The current force structure of the NCR is pretty much that of a Middle-Eastern country (three-tiered, with a lot of barely competent mooks).

What exactly does the three-tiered structure mean, please? I tried to do a small bit of research but didn't have much luck.

It's most probably going to be slaughtered in a straight-up fight with a peer power with a modern and well-trained force (I'd look at the Miliozi there, but they aren't even -peers-...). The NCRAF leadership is probably aware of it. And this probably causes them to be even more on the lookout for megaspells, special weapons, and other Trump Cards to avoid straight-up, open battle fights.

That makes sense, yeah.
Of course, there would probably also be people pointing out that racing to get operational megaspells, and thus spurring the Alliance to race to get its own operational megaspells, sounds a bit worryingly familiar. Sure, there's no hot war going on at the moment, but...
For both political and strategic (since the Alliance might win a race to get cast megaspells and already has strategic missile designs) reasons, I'd imagine that megaspell development is at least kept quiet. Special conventional weapons and the like, though, could probably, for reasons of military morale and national pride, be talked up as much as possible without releasing classified information.

regarding magical programming:
Well, that sounds interesting, but... If the programs themselves are magic, without any necessary magical input, this, it seems to me, is utterly ridiculously overpowered. Oh, for mortal, fleshy programmers it's probably fine... but we have at least two computers who a: want to take over the world and b: have had two centuries they could have been working on this. Maybe Cognitum has hampered by being at least partially an unmodified upload, but still.
...Mind you, now that I think about it, a setting where duelling supercomputers can directly rewrite reality and are duking it out with each other while the mortals just try to survive could be interesting. :)
I don't think that it's what we want here, though.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Just letting you know I'll answer all that, just that it'll be in a few days most probably.

[O. Hinds]

No problem. Though I'm not sure how much I'll be able to be on the forum during EFNW.

[Harmony Ltd.]

We should maybe make a list at the end of PH of the named characters from FoE and PH who are still alive then. Maybe Silentcarto could help?

Maybe, though for PH, at least, there's also Icy Shake's doc.

... Yeah, right, I had completely forgotten that this document existed, now that you remind me of it.

The current force structure of the NCR is pretty much that of a Middle-Eastern country (three-tiered, with a lot of barely competent mooks).

What exactly does the three-tiered structure mean, please?  I tried to do a small bit of research but didn't have much luck.

Saddam Hussein's Irak had the National Guard, which was the elite force of the military and personally loyal to Saddam himself. They got the best gear and the best training, and the rest of the armed forces where basically a disorganized mess.

Same deal for Al-Assad's Syria, AFAIK.

Basically, regimes that need the -number- of troops, but can only afford a portion of them to get the best gear & training, for various reasons (political or logistical). They generally tend to get their asses handed to them in a fair fight.

It is also often a -symptom- of regime who doesn't trust its own people. Though I don't think it applies to the NCR.

It's most probably going to be slaughtered in a straight-up fight with a peer power with a modern and well-trained force (I'd look at the Miliozi there, but they aren't even -peers-...). The NCRAF leadership is probably aware of it. And this probably causes them to be even more on the lookout for megaspells, special weapons, and other Trump Cards to avoid straight-up, open battle fights.

That makes sense, yeah.
Of course, there would probably also be people pointing out that racing to get operational megaspells, and thus spurring the Alliance to race to get its own operational megaspells, sounds a bit worryingly familiar.  Sure, there's no hot war going on at the moment, but...
For both political and strategic (since the Alliance might win a race to get cast megaspells and already has strategic missile designs) reasons, I'd imagine that megaspell development is at least kept quiet.  Special conventional weapons and the like, though, could probably, for reasons of military morale and national pride, be talked up as much as possible without releasing classified information.

Probably, yeah. The NCR walks a fine line anyway, as there remains little un-organized opposition to it on the Equestrian Peninsula, most of the raiders having either been slaughtered or more commonly brought into the fold / rehabilitated (*), and its force structure nowadays being mostly geared toward such kind of asymmetrical warfare / peace-keeping operations (they would need to mobilize the Citizen Force and the Reserve for any serious war, and that would cripple them economically to the breaking point).

regarding magical programming:
Well, that sounds interesting, but...  If the programs themselves are magic, without any necessary magical input, this, it seems to me, is utterly ridiculously overpowered.  Oh, for mortal, fleshy programmers it's probably fine... but we have at least two computers who a: want to take over the world and b: have had two centuries they could have been working on this.  Maybe Cognitum has hampered by being at least partially an unmodified upload, but still.
...Mind you, now that I think about it, a setting where duelling supercomputers can directly rewrite reality and are duking it out with each other while the mortals just try to survive could be interesting.  :)
I don't think that it's what we want here, though.

Yeah, good point. Still, I like the idea that the code can't be triffled with lest it become inactive, or worse, bad things happen.

I suppose you could say it's the computer that write these "electronic runes" that needs to be magical itself? I dunno. I'll think about that later.


-------

(*):

You know, when you look at it not through the lense of Littlepip's prejudice or as the crazed psychos of Hoofington who were literally mad-sick, raiders are mostly just ponies who have had no other options for survival than to band as roving hordes of, well, raiders, to survives. We have enough examples in both stories to show that raiders aren't -inherently- bad persons, but may have simply led to this kind of life through the circumstances.

Now, shake the landscape of the Wasteland enough, with on one side a genocidal power bent on exterminating everyone on the surface, and on the other side a power fighting against these genocidal bastards, and offering amnesty, food and protection to anyone joining it to fight against the people wanting to kill everyone (Hoofington at the end of PH, the NCR during the Bitter War...)

I think the choice would have been easy to make for a lot of the raider population in the Wasteland (and indeed we already see it in PH, to some degree).

Would remain only the most hardcore bands of raiders, or those led by charismatic enough leaders (see the background of Sasha and the Defilers). Which basically would be less "bands of raiders" and more "extremely minor powers led by one or several warlords" (see: Rose Eye, with her being probably the most successful and famous example).

Thus I posit that by 30 SR, the Raider Problem is "mostly" solved in the Equestrian Wasteland, by sheer virtue of the Raider, as it existed before, to be an endangered species at this point.


Also and by the way, this also mean that a large part of the NCR's population is made up of ex-raiders and or descendants of ex-raiders.

THUS, the importance of the Commissars in the NCR's armed forces and even in its civil society...

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