Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Dekshuduph]

The second is I would have liked it more open-ended, without the ten-years-later part, since it didn't seem to add much and kind of cheapened Littlepip's decision to take the place in the SPP.

Ehhh... it's hard to cheapen the whole SPP situation, because it doesn't make any sense in the first place. They have a reliable, if unpleasant, means of travel in and out of the SPP; hooking into the SPP doesn't require any implanted electrodes or similar hardware that would preclude leaving it afterwards (and it wouldn't make sense for Dash to have commissioned a device that did); Pip isn't unique in her ability to use it, nor does she have any particular qualifications that make her the only reasonable candidate at this time. Her only objection is against leaving Celestia alone again, but if she can step out long enough to have a birthday party every year, there's no reason someone else couldn't climb back in. In short, her only reason not to make this a community effort is, "Um, just because."

It is indeed very silly when you think about it that way, but it's pretty easy to justify; we just have to call Littlepip stupid, irrational and selfishly selfless. People may think that it's not completely necessary that she, specifically, stays in the SPP, but she insists on it and she's doing a world of good anyways, so no-one's going to try to stop her. I can't help but imagine the one character from Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends; in a very early episode, he holds the door open to the Mall for an entire day and no-one stopped him because he wasn't hurting anyone. (I know that example is weak, but I barely know that show and I can't think of any other good comparisons.)

[Valikdu]

...And then we get the Enclave, who still carry all that I disliked from their human counterparts in Fallout 3 (namely that they come out of nowhere and the entirety of their philosophy can be summed up with "RAH RAH WE ARE EVIL! LET'S GO SHOOT YOUR DAD")

This.

It is indeed very silly when you think about it that way, but it's pretty easy to justify; we just have to call Littlepip stupid, irrational and selfishly selfless.

Well, I subscribe to Pannic's view of her. So it fits.

As part of their victory in the Time Cold War, the zebras ensured that Twilight never learned it.

As long as there aren't any space vampire nazis...

[Vinylshadow]

Could've sworn that you had to be descended from a Ministry Mare to enter the SPP...

[Scienza]

Nope. It's locked to Rainbow Dash, the Princesses, and maybe somebody else that I can't remember. That's why Velvet couldn't just waltz her way through the shield.

[Vinylshadow]

Alijack:

...the image of Velvet 'waltzing' facefirst into a force field made me crack up

[Silver136]

Personally, my main issue with the ending is the Enclave and how they're handled. What we had initially was the awesomely morally complex interplay between Littlepip, Red Eye, and the Goddess, three characters who arguably want what is ultimately right for the wasteland and who each represent an interesting reflection or mutation of the other two. Together, the three characters play with what exactly it means to be a hero and the meaning of good and evil in a morally ambiguous world.

And then we get the Enclave, who still carry all that I disliked from their human counterparts in Fallout 3 (namely that they come out of nowhere and the entirety of their philosophy can be summed up with "RAH RAH WE ARE EVIL! LET'S GO SHOOT YOUR DAD"). While they do make for some epic setpieces (I'll admit, I squeed when the Steel Ranger and the Applejack's Ranger had their last stand), it sucks all the delicious complexity out of the conflict and just makes it a very black-and-white "Us against Evil Sky Nazis".

God, the Enclave...the ultimate evil stereotype...

But on the note of the Goddess, Littlepip, Red Eye comparison, I completely agree. The moral dilemmas and reflective goals of all three was one of the main things that kept me interested in FoE. It was an extremely good example of parallelisms in characters and how their experiences can effect their means of attaining a goal. After the Goddess's death though, it felt to me like Red Eye became kind of diluted. He went from the all knowing mastermind, the corrupt Pip, into suddenly some evil idealist. I felt like once we got to the Citadel he underwent some random change and suddenly wasn't as coherent as he had been. My primary example for this is when he's about to jump into the IMP. He hops over the ledge, and of course, Pip levitates him back up. One of Littlepip's most well known skills is her telekinesis. There's no way, in my mind anyway, that the guy that's planned everything up to this point, and gotten all of his plans to work, can suddenly miss such a huge detail.

I also felt the Enclave's "end" was rather abrupt.

[Somber]

I really love FoE and Kkat... but I really don't like much from death of the goddess to the end.  I don't know what happened...

[Exodus Hero]

I really love FoE and Kkat... but I really don't like much from death of the goddess to the end.  I don't know what happened...

I agree categorically.

[Scienza]

I thoroughly enjoyed FoE. In terms of world-building and internal consistency, it's pretty fantabulous. Kkat really thought out exactly how the adorable pastel world of Equestria could become a desolate sepia-tone wasteland and presented it in such a way that the seemingly impossible transition made complete sense. That's why the setting has become so incredibly interesting and popular to such a wide variety of authors and readers.

That said, while Kkat's world-building and logical conceptualization is damn near flawless, I'm a lot more ambivalent about the story and characters of FoE. While there are some truly brilliant bits (the aforementioned Littlepip/Red Eye/Goddess parallel comes to mind), there's also a lot of wasted potential. The Enclave could have been a great opportunity for some really interesting philosophies or moralities (like in PH's characterization of them), especially when factoring in Calamity's perspective, but they just came out really generic and rushed. The feeling of it being rushed carries over for most of the ending as well. As for the characters, they're pretty alright, I guess. I don't feel that the relationships between some of the characters were all that well developed (I'm looking at you, Pip and Homage). And, well, I just don't really like Velvet Remedy. I get the feeling that you're really supposed to like her, but she's just so damn dislikable, and the plot's worship of her just further amplifies the issue. I'm sorry, honey, you're not the fucking Element of Kindness. Maybe you're the Element of Emotionally Crippling Your Friends or the Element of Preachiness, but not goddamn Kindness.

However, when the fic is good, it's really damn good. I ate up the lore and the memory orbs like candy. The section between them meeting Steelhooves and Maripony is just awesome. I just wish that a little bit more had been done to take the fic to its fullest potential.

Though, I guess that's where PH comes in.  

[Vergil]

I was brought into this community through my love of fallout (a friend of mine jokingly told me to read FoE and hey, I was bored). At the time, I loved the story enough to seek out more.

Now? I honestly can't read much of it. PH supplanted it for me pretty quickly after I brought myself to start it. Somber's writing has spoiled me, and BJ is best pony.

[Icy Shake]

I thoroughly enjoyed FoE. In terms of world-building and internal consistency, it's pretty fantabulous. Kkat really thought out exactly how the adorable pastel world of Equestria could become a desolate sepia-tone wasteland and presented it in such a way that the seemingly impossible transition made complete sense. That's why the setting has become so incredibly interesting and popular to such a wide variety of authors and readers.

That said, while Kkat's world-building and logical conceptualization is damn near flawless, I'm a lot more ambivalent about the story and characters of FoE. While there are some truly brilliant bits (the aforementioned Littlepip/Red Eye/Goddess parallel comes to mind), there's also a lot of wasted potential. The Enclave could have been a great opportunity for some really interesting philosophies or moralities (like in PH's characterization of them), especially when factoring in Calamity's perspective, but they just came out really generic and rushed. The feeling of it being rushed carries over for most of the ending as well. As for the characters, they're pretty alright, I guess. I don't feel that the relationships between some of the characters were all that well developed (I'm looking at you, Pip and Homage). And, well, I just don't really like Velvet Remedy. I get the feeling that you're really supposed to like her, but she's just so damn dislikable, and the plot's worship of her just further amplifies the issue. I'm sorry, honey, you're not the fucking Element of Kindness. Maybe you're the Element of Emotionally Crippling Your Friends or the Element of Preachiness, but not goddamn Kindness.

However, when the fic is good, it's really damn good. I ate up the lore and the memory orbs like candy. The section between them meeting Steelhooves and Maripony is just awesome. I just wish that a little bit more had been done to take the fic to its fullest potential.

Though, I guess that's where PH comes in.  

I agree with a lot of this, including the orbs, lore, and world building generally, plus some character elements and the plot until near the end. One area my feelings strongly parallel this is another of the reasons I don't like the ten years later afterward: it forces Littlepip to be right about Homage being the Element of Honesty, where I think it'd be more accurate to say she's something along the lines of the Element of Living a Lie on Multiple Levels for Probably-Good Reasons or the Element of Using Extremely Private Information to Shame Your Girlfriend Sexually. But yeah, there's a reason that it's fairly common for me, upon reading things that Homage does, to think "THE ELEMENT OF HONESTY" (in booming announcer voice and with a mental hand motion—palms out, hands slowly spreading apart in a sort of rainbow shape).

One aspect of the Enclave others haven't mentioned lately is how their arrival so unfortunately coincided with Calamity's sudden discovery of restraint and appetite for nonlethal methods of ending combat, to the extent that they were close to the sole beneficiaries of that change.

[O. Hinds]

One aspect of the Enclave others haven't mentioned lately is how their arrival so unfortunately coincided with Calamity's sudden discovery of restraint and appetite for nonlethal methods of ending combat, to the extent that they were close to the sole beneficiaries of that change.

...Huh. You know, I'd not noticed that before, but... yeah.

[Scienza]

One aspect of the Enclave others haven't mentioned lately is how their arrival so unfortunately coincided with Calamity's sudden discovery of restraint and appetite for nonlethal methods of ending combat, to the extent that they were close to the sole beneficiaries of that change.

...Huh.  You know, I'd not noticed that before, but... yeah.

That's actually incredibly interesting. I never thought of them as a counterpoint to Calamity's character development.

Still doesn't excuse their generic-ness though.

@Elements
To be fair, it is a bit hard to characterize the Elements of Harmony and Loyalty in FiM-related stuff since, as has been pointed out by the fanbase many times, the argument that Applejack and Rainbow Dash represent their designated Elements is shaky at best. Since they're the canon definition of what constitutes said Elements, it gets a bit complicated when you try to write characters that also embody Honesty and Loyalty.

[Guest]

@FOE
I read it 'cos it kept on updating on the front page of EQD way back when, and at some point I had nothing to read and a great deal of spare time, so I loaded it up and blasted through it. As with Fallout 3, it started out very strong just based on the world being so novel and unknown-but-familiar (sort of like the uncanny, but from the opposite end of things - something that would almost be completely alien, except for a few details). As more and more plot and central narrative came into the mix, well, I wouldn't say I stopped enjoying it, but the thing that had drawn me to it in the first place definitely had gone. What replaced it wasn't as compelling; I liked the gritty style, though, and didn't mind the fairly simplistic characters. The ending WAS kind of a problem for me, but mostly just because I'd gotten tired of action scenes and never found anything to stimulate my interest. Red Eye was not a compelling villain for me (gasp, heresy!), and the Enclave certainly weren't.

Overall, I definitely enjoyed the story, even when it dragged. It relied a lot on knowing and enjoying the Fallout source material, but it also delivered on that source material better than the games themselves did. I'll always give it props for that.

[Derpmind]

Somber's writing has spoiled me, and BJ is best pony.

This. There can't be enough good said about how Kkat built this crazy FoE world, but I've never been able to re-read much of the original because it just can't hold up against even the early parts of PH. Even before Kkat's ended I was already telling people that FoE was amazing and PH was mindblowing.

Actually, here's a nostalgia trip: I made the username Derpmind (and snagged my avatar) because I was commenting on PH back when all discussion was on the comment section on EqD. Nowadays nobody reads your comment on EqD unless you post it within the half-hour after a new site post, but back then there was tons of discussion and nowhere did I feel my silly opinions meant more than in PH's mega-comment party.

[Somber]

And you also paid my rent when I was about to be kicked out so, yeah.  ::hugs::  I haven't forgotten that.

[Derpmind]

And you also paid my rent when I was about to be kicked out so, yeah.  ::hugs::  I haven't forgotten that.

Um, it looks like you're talking about me? Since this post doesn't reference a name and is right after my previous post. Which can't be right because, well... I've never donated any money to you. Sorry. Ihavenoideawhathappenedhere.

[Somber]

I'm pretty sure it was you.  Pretty sure.  Might be mistaken.  Whomever it was, they saved my life.  I was ready to check out then and there when bills came due.

[O. Hinds]

Oh, yes, whoever it was, thank you very, very much.

[Silver136]

I'm pretty sure it was you.  Pretty sure.  Might be mistaken.  Whomever it was, they saved my life.  I was ready to check out then and there when bills came due.

You know, your writing really is amazing. Maybe you should try getting something published at some point, make a little money on the side.

And I've also got to agree greatly with Virgil, PH ruined FoE for me. After I started reading PH and I went back go FoE it just felt... lackluster.

[Vinylshadow]

They're both shining examples in their own rights, but I prefer the original over PH

As I've stated before, PH tends to drag on in some areas and tries to do too much in one volume

[Scienza]

I'm going to disagree with you on that. Personally, I feel that the pacing in PH is usually fantabulous. It's a big, epic story, and so it needs the time to reach a natural conclusion and culminate the story arcs of each character, something I felt the original was less than satisfactory at doing. There may be a few points where the story drags on a bit or gets somewhat sidetracked, but hey, I love the characters so much that I'm fine with a rest or detour.

As for trying to do too much in each volume, to be honest, the volumes don't mean much beyond marking where Blackjack is in her character development. I always organized PH by individual story arcs, since that's how Somber's writing usually flows. It's true that there are a lot of story arcs, but I never felt that they were distracting.

Alternately, if you're talking about how PH is one fic as opposed to a series, I also disagree. I don't see the point in artificially breaking up the fic to make it fit into smaller chunks with neat beginnings and endings. If it helps, think of PH more like a TV series, where individual episodes and story arcs get their resolution but the overarching story isn't over until it's goddamn over.

[Guest]

Remember when we were questioning how to build an economy off of slave labor? Looks like India has it figured out! :P

[Silver136]

Remember when we were questioning how to build an economy off of slave labor? Looks like India has it figured out! :P

That's...awful. Not at all "figured out." Maybe if they were convicts of some sort, but cutting off limbs? That just makes them less productive than they were before.

[Vinylshadow]

Although it probably encourages the others to work harder lest they also lose their limbs

at least they're not hacking off their manhoods

Say...now there's an idea...

[Somber]

Evil has standards.

[Icy Shake]

Evil has standards.

In contrast to Blackjack, whose standards extend to feeling bad afterwards and pointing out she was drunk at the time. 

[Somber]

"I cut it off huh?  Sorry about that."
"Sorry?!  You gelded me and that's all you can say?  Sorry?"
"Yep.  Pretty much.  I mean I didn't really keep it as a souvenir."  scratches her head.  "Actually, what DID I do with it?  I mean I cut it off and then..."  Pauses and frowns.  "Goddess, that's frustrating!  I mean I had it.  I cut it off.  But then... nothing!  Like how do you forget something like that?"
Said 'stallion' makes choking sounds.
"I know, right?  Oh I had a cock but I set it aside some where!  Can't quite remember where."  Looks around and huffs.  "Worse than misplacing your keys, am I right?"
"I-  You-  How-"
"Yeah.  Yeah.  Anyway.  Sorry about it.  Feel awful.  Wish I could make it all better.  Can't." takes a drink.  "Look at the bright side.  At least you got to go home to your family."
"My mare left me..."
"Oooh.  Ow.  Sorry..."
"We were gonna have a family..."
"Ow... Really...?  Um..."
"Damn thing was spectacular!  Cock ta end all cocks!  Like a monument ta the wastelands!  It was the only thing I had goin for me!"
"Ah.  That's so...ahhhh, shit.  Fine.  You want to shoot me a few times?  I hear it cheers other folks right up."

[O. Hinds]

You lot. :D

[Vergil]

This looks like a job for SCIENCE!

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