Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Vinylshadow]

Well, as a reward for her efforts of stopping Project Horizons from wiping Equestria off the map...

Well, she's already got a flesh and blood body back, doesn't she?

What more could she need? She's got Glory...

BJ doesn't seem like the kind of pony who needs much...

A lifetime supply of Wild Pegasus, probably, that would be nice

[Guest]

To be fair BJ kinda did get a refund. As big one she could get without someone erasing her traumas and sticking them into memory orbs. Not that that would work.

Somber, it sounds like you're second guessing yourself. Not going to tell you whatever you're worried about if anything is nothing but in case you are it's probably not as bad as you think it is.

Feel free to ignore that if I'm completely off base though.

[WavemasterRyx]

Ultra competence.

I honestly don't think Blackjack has this problem, sir...  If she had started this way back in the first chapter, then yes, but she didn't.  Blackjack has had 67 chapters worth of experiences that have shaped who she is; she's learned a lot, and she has paid dearly for where she's gotten...

I'm very sorry you're feeling so bad about it, sir...  I hope you'll be able to find a way to keep going, and still be okay with the direction you take...

And... I offer my deepest apologies for contributing to the "need" for characters to survive.  It was selfish, and I'm sorry, sir.

[Vinylshadow]

One that that bothers me in some series is that characters never seem to learn from previous encounters

That, and the fact there's always that 'evil villain monologue' moment where they idiotically give the main character the chance to defeat them

Granted, having a raider press a gun to BJ's head and liquefy it might make for a rather short story, it would be rather realistic, especially if she wasn't prepared and jumped in without thinking, like she's done on more than one occasion and still managing to beat the odds, usually while drunk

[Borsuq]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Blackjack fought while drunk only twice, I believe: first time in Mall with Deus, then in the museum... or did I miss something?

Also, getting back to the topic of her getting flesh back as a refund: I don't think it can be called as such, as she had lost her baby in the process, and while I am pro abortion and think that all those people who protest against it are religious nutjobs, woman-haters and overall people who nobody would want to f*** at all, Blackjack wanted to keep that baby, so Cogs will burn in robot hell, and Blackjack should get a double refund :)

[Guest]

Losing something and being apart from it in this case is not the same thing.

[Vinylshadow]

She'll be blessed with twins, then

Although I do see a rather obvious trap here

"Come any closer and I'll kill your baby"

Pretty sure Cogjack wouldn't hesitate to perform one heck of an impromptu abortion to keep Blackjack away from...whatever could stop Horizons

[Borsuq]

I don't think she would. You saw how she reacted when Steel Rain (haha, he's dead) tried suggesting something similar. Maybe it's due to her (or rather, Luna) feeling guilty over being practically responsible for Fluttershy's miscarriage, maybe it's just that she has a soft spot for children (like here), or maybe something else...

[Vinylshadow]

Never underestimate the lengths a cornered animal will go to to escape

[Dutcher]

Maybe there is some shred of morality inside her.

[Silver136]

Never underestimate the lengths a cornered animal will go to to escape

I don't think she's that much of an animal. She was appealed by Dawn's actions, enraged by Steel Rain's, and honestly wants to help. I don't think she'd go that far.

[Dutcher]

Never underestimate the lengths a cornered animal will go to to escape

I don't think she's that much of an animal. She was appealed by Dawn's actions, enraged by Steel Rain's, and honestly wants to help. I don't think she'd go that far.

Like any good Villain she believes that she is doing the right thing.

[Silver136]

Never underestimate the lengths a cornered animal will go to to escape

I don't think she's that much of an animal. She was appealed by Dawn's actions, enraged by Steel Rain's, and honestly wants to help. I don't think she'd go that far.

Like any good Villain she believes that she is doing the right thing.

Dang it, meant to write "appalled" here. Auto correct strikes again. And she knows using a baby as a hostage isn't the right thing. Her actions towards Steel Rain and towards the baby itself show that.

[Vinylshadow]

Cogjack has Luna/Eclipse's mind, am I remembering that correctly?

Hm...if you consider Duo Cartoonist's "Children of the Night" short canon to the whole of MLP, then yeah, she would have a soft spot for foals...

Rrrgh, I am not good with words

[Silver136]

Cogjack has Luna/Eclipse's mind, am I remembering that correctly?

Hm...if you consider Duo Cartoonist's "Children of the Night" short canon to the whole of MLP, then yeah, she would have a soft spot for foals...

Rrrgh, I am not good with words

The Crusader made an exact copy of her mind, yes. However without the soul the mind supposedly lacks any morality, effectively making them a machine with a body. However, Luna's soul was thrown in, so I'm optimistic (which rarely happens. Ever.).

[Dutcher]

Cogjack has Luna/Eclipse's mind, am I remembering that correctly?

Hm...if you consider Duo Cartoonist's "Children of the Night" short canon to the whole of MLP, then yeah, she would have a soft spot for foals...

Rrrgh, I am not good with words

The Crusader made an exact copy of her mind, yes. However without the sole the mind supposedly lacks any morality, effectively making them a machine with a body. However, Luna's soul was thrown in, so I'm optimistic (which rarely happens. Ever.).

Was the baby thing before or after Luna soul?
Anyway its interesting to see that she became a different person after the separation from Luna.
Much more cynical (?), Cruel and also without knowledge about events such as Gb survival.

[Vinylshadow]

You'd think after touring the Wasteland, Luna would change

I highly doubt this is what she expected to happen to Equestria

Unless she's also using it as a chance to look for her sister?

[Silver136]

You'd think after touring the Wasteland, Luna would change

I highly doubt this is what she expected to happen to Equestria

Unless she's also using it as a chance to look for her sister?

Luna died in Canterlot, only her "mind" has seen the Wasteland. Her soul is only still around because her closeness with the Eater drew her soul to it rather than the Everafter.

[Vinylshadow]

Cue wonky mind and soul unification ritual that does something bad

[Silver136]

Cue wonky mind and soul unification ritual that does something bad

Discord got Cogs to unify herself with Luna's soul already. Amadi was super frustrated that Discord was screwing with his plans again. Here's to hoping Luna's soul takes over. (Yay, optimism!)

[RoboRed]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Blackjack fought while drunk only twice, I believe: first time in Mall with Deus, then in the museum... or did I miss something?

You forgot about ch34 when she was with Littlepip.

(HAIL QUEEN WHISKEY!!!)

[Vinylshadow]

I'd ship LittlePip with BJ, but I'm also tempted to ship LP with Murky, even though LP seems to find no interest in bucks, which is probably going to cause Murk to snap...unless he gets together with Unity, buuuuuuut, that has nothing to do with PH, sooooo....

Did someone mention Whiskey?:

Luna's explosive what?:

[Borsuq]

Ah yes, how could I forget that.

Also

[Vinylshadow]

God forbid Murk meets Blackjack, she'd give him worse nightmares than Barb, Wildcard and Shackles combined

Who doesn't love eye-tentacle shlongs though?

[Derpmind]

I'd think that Goldenblood's plot armor has some damn good justification: The manipulations of the EoS. As for Blackjack, not having her die at the end of 33 does mean that readers won't worry about if she's going to die as often. However, I'd say that PH has boatloads of suspense in addition to the unknowns of Blackjack's likelihood to die in some situation. In fiction where the main character happens to be in lots of combat rarely actually kill that character, at least not before the end of the story. And 33 wasn't the end of the story.

Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if BJ had died at 33. I know that whatever happened it would be written brilliantly. I don't know if there would be fewer detractors or not, but I do know the story that would be written would still be fantastic. But it still wouldn't be perfect, and I don't know if it would be better. Somber chose to keep BJ alive because Somber wanted to keep writing her. Was it a mistake? Hell, how much of the story would have been written better, with the benefit of hindsight? I don't think the lessons learned are as simple as a list of mistakes, things to not do again. Just... I don't even know what I'm saying anymore. Gah!

Somber, every time you talk about things you would have done, I wish you were able to write it. And I'm glad you actually talk about this stuff with us. Bla bla bla forging ahead with the future because we can't change the past and all aside, you will finish PH. And it will be the amazing, flawed, incomprehensible-to-the-mortal-mind Elder Being that we've all hoped and feared for. But as much as I've enjoyed re-reading PH occasionally, I will always look forward to what you write next more. Not because I think that the future will be more free of flaws and bad stuff, but because your writing is alive to me.  It's always powerful, and deep, and it's oftentimes great fun. And I do also like it when you piece apart elements of the story, though I wish you weren't so hard on yourself. (Not talking about it would be way worse, really. Though I wish some posters were a little more interested in talking about the writing process sometimes.) After reading your post, I do wish that you had BJ's friends enter the core, but that just means you'll have to make them twice as baddass the next time to make up for it.

I'm gonna post this before I read any of what I wrote and spend forever picking apart all the stupid things I said for the smart versions of each statement (Mostly because I suck at that, to be honest.)

[Vinylshadow]

Or else spend a few months going back and re-writing bits and pieces of it so it flows better

Every friend ever:

[SilentCarto]

If you're not familiar with Preston and Child, they write excellent contemporary thrillers with just enough science thrown in to keep things interesting.  They started out with Relic, and had a slew of mostly mundane characters trying to tackle a monster in their museum.  Along came a mysterious FBI agent with the guns and knowledge to give a little nudge here and there.  Aloysius Xingu Leng Pendergast.  It wasn't that notable.  In the movie, he doesn't appear at all.  And in the sequel, he makes another appearance at the middle, but it's largely left up to the less competant Officer Degusta.

Then Pendgergast took over the series.  The man can do anything.  Knows everything.  Let me acknowledge that Preston and Child have a knowledge of high culture that, if true, is staggering, and if made up, feels legitimate.  The problem is that it's everywhere.  He speaks a dozen languages, has the ability to manipulate anyone and everyone, and is always right in the end.  The later novels go from 'if' Pendergast will solve the case to 'how' and we're largely left wondering how many secondary characters will be affected.  Now he's made all of his secondary characters ultra competant too.  

It's funny you express it this way, because I read Relic and then gave up on the series because I felt Pendergast was already just too good at, well, everything. Even in just that book, he's ridiculously calm and collected for a guy facing a murderous monster. He knows as much about native cultures as a museum expert, he can interrogate people with a glare, and he doesn't bat an eye at discovering horribly mutilated bodies. He just waltzes in and solves the problem, as opposed to a character like Harry Dresden, who is also highly competent in his sphere, but you get to see him struggle for his victory across the whole book. I just didn't like how that makes Pendergast come off. If it got even worse in later books, I'm glad I quit.

Uggggghhhhh...

I just realized where Goldenblood and Blackjack came from...

I read a lot of different stories.  Lord of the Rings, of course.  Wheel of Time (To a point).  Dresden files.  RA Salvadore's dark elf line.  But I also read a lot of non-fantasy fiction and am a big fan of Douglas Preston and Lincoln Child team ups.  I'm also a fan of Clive Cussler's work.

Mix this together and what do you get?

Ultra competence.

Well, this is where I don't quite follow. BJ is highly competent in her particular skill set, but that's not a crime. She's useless at sneaking, hacking, and medicine. She's okay at convincing people with her sincerity, but a political animal like Lighthooves will talk rings around her. The kind of ultra-competence you're referring to implies that she's an expert at so many skills that one of her talents always applies, and that's not really the case.

Goldenblood is similar in that he's highly competent in his sphere. He's an ambush predator of politics -- tricky, stealthy, and deadly when he decides to strike. In most flashbacks, we see him in his native environment, so of course he's extremely competent there. But my response comes in two parts.

First, he's not universally competent. He's good at this one thing, which is fine. If you challenged him to single combat or a trivia contest, he'd be sunk. But he uses his political acumen to see to it that A) you never got the chance to challenge him, and B) you never knew who to challenge anyway. A lot of what he got away with was thanks to his relative obscurity. He uses his skills to make sure his opponents stay in the arena where his skills apply.

Second, if he was the hero of the story, you're right that his level of manipulation might be unacceptable. But this kind of behavior is perfectly fine in a villain. Xanatos, Palpatine, Light Yagami... well, just see the "Magnificent Bastard" entry on TVTropes, really. (And yet, even Goldie isn't perfect -- he was being played the whole time.)

AKA, Mary Sue characters.  I generally don't like that term, as it is horribly sexist, but it's the one most people can relate too.  Ultra Competence.

You can use the term "Marty Stu" or "Gary Stu" for males if you prefer. But "ultra competent" is not what "Mary Sue" means. A Mary Sue waltzes through the story without having to expend effort to overcome challenges. That is absolutely not the case for BJ, of course, but that's not what you're worried about, so I'll set it aside. Just be aware that "Mary Sue" implies traits you didn't actually mean.

One of the staples of writing is suspense.  'If' a character will succeed or not.  GG Martin's the master of this with Game of Thrones.  We seriously and sincerely have no clue who will 'win' at the end, or if there will be a 'win' at all.  (Seriously, at this point, I think I'd enjoy it if the world was frozen solid due to all the bickering.)  It takes a very brave writer to do this, because the vast majority of our dramas end in triumph.  Imagine how we all would have felt if Voldemort had killed Harry and won?  Looking at it from the outside, it's a pretty safe bet that Harry will win.  If Harry had died by Goblet of Fire, maybe she could have started towards a downer ending, but at the end?  No.

I guess I follow, but that's not really the point. You can usually assume that the hero will manage to save the world, rescue the princess, resolve whatever the overarching conflict of the story is. You're exactly right that the question isn't whether he'll succeed, but how much it will cost him. Sure, BJ will stop the world from blowing up. But will Glory survive? What about BJ? Her baby? And what's to be done about Rampage? Will Hoofington make it, or will the final conflict wreck the city? And will BJ be able to hang onto her ideals in the process? There's plenty of suspense to be found without the largest-scale conflict being in doubt.

There was a study I heard about a few months ago. The psychologists took two groups of people and had them watch a short film with a twist ending. The control group went in cold. The experimental group was told the twist ahead of time. Each group was then asked to rate their enjoyment of the film. The group that had been spoiled actually rated their enjoyment higher than the controls; apparently, the enjoyment derived from the dramatic irony of knowing the secret and the suspense of wondering how and why the reveal will happen was greater than the enjoyment of having the rest of the movie turned on its head by the reveal.

I think all storytelling is like that, in a way. You know the hero's going to win, and that's fine -- that knowledge doesn't do anything to soften the blows he takes along the way, and the joy is ultimately in the journey, not the destination.

Also... I realized I screwed up.  I should have had BJ's friends find her in the Core.  This is what happens when characters are ultra competant, but secondary characters aren't.  Since Maripony, the story's been largely keeping BJ away from her friends.  It seemed like the only thing I could do because I don't want them to die.  They didn't have BJ's victory talent protecting them.

I really wouldn't call BJ "ultra competent", in the final analysis. She had protection against conditions that none of her friends did, sure, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. She is (was) ultimately just good at not dying from physical violence and from Enervation. I'll grant that the first-person perspective makes it hard to split the party like "Return of the Jedi", with Luke facing the Emperor alone while his friends fight in space and on the surface of Endor. But I think you've played it well so far. I'm not sure how the encounter with Cogs could have played out if her friends were all there -- I enjoyed the sacrifice of the Broken Monsters to keep her going. And while I'm not privy to exactly what situation has you worried at this point, I'm just going to say: trust yourself. You're on the "how the hamburger is made" side of things, and it all looks way tastier by the time it's been grilled up and served on a bun.

[Silver136]

"If you challenged him to single combat, or a trivia contest...

I dunno, I think Goldie would be pretty darn good at a trivia contest... 

[SilentCarto]

I dunno, I think Goldie would be pretty darn good at a trivia contest... 

Maybe if it focused on history, Zebra culture, geology, or the secret lives of government officials. I rather doubt he follows the latest trends in music or fashion, and Twilight would beat him hooves-down at facts and figures. He probably couldn't tell you how the Hoofington Reapers did last year, nor produce the relevant statistics to estimate the odds of the next Wonderbolts Derby. He'd know who to ask, certainly, but I don't get the impression that he collects random factoids for the fun of it.

[Silver136]

I dunno, I think Goldie would be pretty darn good at a trivia contest... 

Maybe if it focused on history, Zebra culture, geology, or the secret lives of government officials. I rather doubt he follows the latest trends in music or fashion, and Twilight would beat him hooves-down at facts and figures. He probably couldn't tell you how the Hoofington Reapers did last year, nor produce the relevant statistics to estimate the odds of the next Wonderbolts Derby. He'd know who to ask, certainly, but I don't get the impression that he collects random factoids for the fun of it.

Yeah, but honestly, who could beat Twilight? That's her own game.

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