Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[OneMoreDaySK]

Wow, what a gross oversimplification of a religion. Just... not touching this subject.

@Last
I believe we can tie the discussion to possible ramifications and 'what ifs' inside the Project Horizons story. Besides, not like there's any interesting prompts or chapters lately.

[Vinylshadow]

Aye, LittlePip (Littlepip?) is the spark that unites the elements (And the reason she's got a PipBuck Cutie Mark)

...Since Blackjack is Twi's descendant, isn't there a possibility she might be the Element of Magic?

I feel like ANY other character can beat Jesus at Resurrections

Blackjack's got 2 or 3, Goku and Krillen have got, what, four each?

And don't get me started on Kenny...

[Vinylshadow]

Seems like a lot of FoE protags end up like Jesus, sacrificing themselves so others can have a better life

and that is why my FoE character doesn't do that sort of thing

He/she just tries to survive, one day at a time and if she/he needs to kill innocents to do so, then he/she gladly will

[Vinylshadow]

Ah yes, silly me

[Borsuq]

Wow, what a gross oversimplification of a religion. Just... not touching this subject.

...it's not really an "oversimplification", it's just a joke.
I mean, Optimist wins at "sounds like" because Jesus sounds "probably like a hippy".

I'm just curious if Borsuq is asking for an actual point-by-point Blackjack vs. Jesus comparison, or if he just wants something saying Jesus is pathetic and ineffective like the image does.

  
You know, I may be an atheist (more like deist, but whatever), but that doesn't mean I want to see Jesus being portrayed as pathetic or something. For all accounts he seems to have been a good person. Now, I wish he would have left behind much better records of his work, so that his followers wouldn't become... well, to not offend anyone, lets say "wouldn't become what they had become", and leave it at that.

I meant an actual comparison.

[Scienza]

Jesus was a human, Blackjack is a horse.

[Moodyman90]

I'll try to go more in depth when I'm at my computer and not on a phone, but Blackjack is suppose to be a deconstruction of the messiah archetype which Jesus is theres known example.

[Vinylshadow]

You mean the whole 'tries to save ponies and occasionally succeeds but usually ends up getting shot for the effort" kind of deconstruction?

[Scienza]

She's a deconstruction in that she has the characteristics normally exhibited by messiah/martyr-type characters in other works but her tale illustrates just how flawed those ideals can ultimately be. Instead of just accepting that "she means good, so everything she does is justified", Blackjack demonstrates how over-the-top sacrifice and blind following of certain ideals can lead an individual to be ultimately self-destructive (as well as just normal destructive). She even questions whether her actions are ultimately self-serving, whether her desire to help other ponies stems from wanting to make herself feel better by helping the "victims".

What Project Horizons does is take the messiah archetype and put them into a brutally realist setting where good intents don't necessarily excuse the corpses strewn behind you.

[Vinylshadow]

Ah yes, religion never seems to account for 'the real world'

Some people aren't gonna listen to you, no matter what you do

[MSCA]

Unless you're talking about actually before the war rather than just before the apocalypse.  FoE used "prewar" for "preapocalypse" because that's what Fallout did.  The problem is that it was fine in Fallout because the last war both started and ended with the apocalypse; in FoE, unfortunately, the apocalypse was just the end of a continuous twenty-year-long war.  Though you probably know this already, I thought that I'd just elucidate the somewhat confused meaning of that word/phrase.

That's... not entirely accurate. The nuclear exchange in Fallout came at the end of a war that started as a conflict between China and the US over oil reserves in Alaska and escalated into something approaching a world war. The development of power armor gave US forces a decisive advantage, so when their unstoppable advance approached Beijing, the desperate Chinese government launched a simultaneous nuclear strike against the US army on Chinese soil and the mainland United States itself. And the rest, as they say, is history.

Just a small point, canon says that we don't know who actually launched the first nuclear missiles.  While your timeline is very plausible, remember that the early Enclave exerted a huge amount of power in the US government at the time, and actually wanted a nuclear war, because they knew that it would basically wipe out everyone except themselves.  It's just as plausible that they saw the war's end coming up, and went nuclear while they still had the chance.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Great_War

[Dutcher]

Unless you're talking about actually before the war rather than just before the apocalypse.  FoE used "prewar" for "preapocalypse" because that's what Fallout did.  The problem is that it was fine in Fallout because the last war both started and ended with the apocalypse; in FoE, unfortunately, the apocalypse was just the end of a continuous twenty-year-long war.  Though you probably know this already, I thought that I'd just elucidate the somewhat confused meaning of that word/phrase.

That's... not entirely accurate. The nuclear exchange in Fallout came at the end of a war that started as a conflict between China and the US over oil reserves in Alaska and escalated into something approaching a world war. The development of power armor gave US forces a decisive advantage, so when their unstoppable advance approached Beijing, the desperate Chinese government launched a simultaneous nuclear strike against the US army on Chinese soil and the mainland United States itself. And the rest, as they say, is history.

Just a small point, canon says that we don't know who actually launched the first nuclear missiles.  While your timeline is very plausible, remember that the early Enclave exerted a huge amount of power in the US government at the time, and actually wanted a nuclear war, because they knew that it would basically wipe out everyone except themselves.  It's just as plausible that they saw the war's end coming up, and went nuclear while they still had the chance.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Great_War

The president said that China launched first, maybe he lied though.
For those of you that didnt play Zeta
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Reid_Underwood%27s_terminal

[O. Hinds]

For most of the series, the only appropriate term would be chaotic evil, since the Reapers operated by motivations that nobody could comprehend or possibly understand. They had their own objectives and motivation, they were just beyond human comprehension, like Cthulhu.

Wouldn't that still either be LE (the fact that most people don't know their motivations doesn't change the alignment of their motivations) or NA (human concepts of morality do not apply to Cthulhu)? And oh dear, we seem to have slipped into an alignment argument. :D

FO:E's the only one that got famous and spawned its own side-stories. Not sure about any others.

I've seen a few that draw from PH to one degree or another. One is actually set in Chapel, but it has three chapters and last updated in February of 2012. Word of Cascadejackal is that PH is canon to Wasteland Bouquet (WHICH STILL SOMEHOW ONLY HAS 50 THUMBS UP HINT HINT), but regarding Hoofinton, the characters "haven't been there yet".

And I'm still in the firm belief that that particular episode was actually a fanfic by Dash.

Same. :D

and on another note, after seeing the Tree of Harmony, I imagine Spike's Crusader Maneframe that he's got set aside for Gardens of Equestria to be the Tree of Harmony, magically transplanted to a remote cave to keep it from Zebras or something

I just don't include the Tree of Harmony in my FoE headcanon.

Guys, you're kinda getting a bit off topic. This thread is for PH general discussion goes in the official.

Ah, yes, sorry...

[Stringtheory]

FO:E's the only one that got famous and spawned its own side-stories. Not sure about any others.

I've seen a few that draw from PH to one degree or another.

(Vinylshadow and) I meant crossover fics of different source material along the lines of FO:E. The last one I heard of was Harmony, a Bioshock crossover, but its apparently dead/on hiatus.

[O. Hinds]

Oh.  I can only think of one at the moment, Vision, but it is very good.  The author's made some interesting blog posts on architecture, among other things.  (Though we're probably getting offtopic here.)

edit: Oh, and, IIRC, these types of crossovers are called fusion fics. I'm not entirely sure, though.

[Stringtheory]

Oh, and, IIRC, these types of crossovers are called fusion fics.  I'm not entirely sure, though.

Heh, heh, I was going to use that term but then decided against it, guess I was right the first time...

[SilentCarto]

I meant crossover fics of different source material along the lines of FO:E. The last one I heard of was Harmony, a Bioshock crossover, but its apparently dead/on hiatus.

If you like Firefly, psychciscubadiver (of Dresden Fillies fame) is working on one for that...

[Silver136]

I wanna see a good Star Trek crossover, or maybe Dark Souls. "The Chosen Equestrian!"

[Derpmind]

So normally I'd just ask everyone to drop the religious discussion, but I believe I can explain this. The discussion (kinda) started with Blackjack, the subversion of the messiah/savior archetype, and Jesus, practically the definition of the archetype. However, there are many different Jesuses. There's the Biblical story Jesus, there is the historical Jesus whose name wasn't literally "Jesus Christ", there is the Jesus of religious faith, (or whoever ya phrase that one,) there's the Jesus of popular culture, there's the Jesus of internet culture, all the many movie Jesuses, and don't forget Jesus the Space Hipster... and the thing is, if everyone's not on the same page, someone's going to misinterpret something and get offended.

And really, everyone here already accepts Blackjack as our Lady and Savior.  

[Vinylshadow]

Well, between controlling the weather and EC-1101, I feel that LittlePip abd Blackjack could start fixing the Wasteland.

...watch EC have the power to fire Gardens even without all the Elements of Harmony.

I also hope Discord isn't really dead and gone; a world with chaos? 

Scary

I for one accept our Lord and Savior Discord   Dash will have to do because I can't find good ol 'Cordio

[Exodus Hero]

So normally I'd just ask everyone to drop the religious discussion, but I believe I can explain this. The discussion (kinda) started with Blackjack, the subversion of the messiah/savior archetype, and Jesus, practically the definition of the archetype.  However, there are many different Jesuses. There's the Biblical story Jesus, there is the historical Jesus whose name wasn't literally "Jesus Christ", there is the Jesus of religious faith, (or whoever ya phrase that one,) there's the Jesus of popular culture, there's the Jesus of internet culture, all the many movie Jesuses, and don't forget Jesus the Space Hipster... and the thing is, if everyone's not on the same page, someone's going to misinterpret something and get offended.

And really, everyone here already accepts Blackjack as our Lady and Savior.  

[Somber]

Blackjack as the Messiah archetype is a growth of her from idiot hero.  For example, she no longer thinks of herself as a stupid pony.  What she's learning the hard way is that being a messiah isn't easy.  Dying for others is just dying.  Fighting for others, giving them a chance at a future, matters far more than just taking a bullet.  It's not enough to just die.  If it were, Blackjack would have gone a whole long while ago.

But the world needs martyrs.  They're symbols of selflessness.  Without selflessness, there can be no community.  No family.  Parents give of themselves so their offspring survive.  Communities pool resources so that they can do in unity what they can not do individually.  So that is what Blackjack is becoming.  She started out as just trying to do better, and has now realized that's not enough.  Eventually, you break.  And it's more than just simply trying to kill enough bad so there's a majority of good.  She has to foster and build up the good.  Give them a chance.  Make the effort.  And if it costs her her life, so be it.  But she's learned that saving the world is hard.  It comes with a price in pain and blood and self.  The Blackjack that emerged from 99 wouldn't recognize the Blackjack now.  She probably would resent the hell out of her future self.

And the price for saving the world hasn't been paid in full yet.

(also, in my atheist headcanon, there was a flesh and blood human Jesus, and he really stirred up shit and pissed off corrupt jewish authorities... but that's just my headcanon.  I have no idea if its true or not.)

[Silver136]

Well present day Blackjack has learned a lot, thinks about things, and is trying to change the status quo. This goes against older Blackjack's "Don't think about it, just do your job and everything will be fine. Keep everything the same because it works for me." Plus new Blackjack is 90% machine now. So I could see old Blackjack resenting the new.

[Scienza]

@Somber:
...what? Fresh from the stable Blackjack would resent present-day Blackjack?
I'm not sure I understand why. I can understand the other way around, but yeah...

"NO NO NO, YOU CAN'T JUST HAVE SEX WITH HIM!"

"Fucking buzzkill..."

[Vinylshadow]

Why is it that I can never say what I'm trying to say correctly...

I kinda get that "Stable Blackjack" would hate "Wasteland Blackjack", I just can't explain it in a way that makes sense to anyone other than me

Wasn't there a little part where Blackjack faced herself while she was getting mental help?
And that part of her scared her even after being in the Wasteland, what she could become, maybe even already HAD become

[Silver136]

Well present day Blackjack has learned a lot, thinks about things, and is trying to change the status quo. This goes against older Blackjack's "Don't think about it, just do your job and everything will be fine. Keep everything the same because it works for me." Plus new Blackjack is 90% machine now. So I could see old Blackjack resenting the new.

Well, for one, she's got no machine in her anymore.
For two, though, I don't understand what you are saying. For Blackjack, not thinking about stuff meant doing as little as possible and just surviving. She lived as lazy a life as she could manage, mostly just waiting for said life to eventually end.
She would look at the present-day Blackjack as crazy, mostly, going around saving people. Security saves ponies, sure, but not towns. Populations. Particularly not the world. That's stuff better left to the Vault Dweller. Hero-types with their super powers that allow them to accomplish the impossible while normal ponies like herself just get on with their day-by-day.
Present-day Blackjack would see her past as shortsighted and immature, but past Blackjack would just think the idea that she could ever turn into the mythical Security is absurd. All she wants is to go back to bed, with or without a pony to keep her company.

Edit:
I mean, that was the source of her fantasies regarding what the Vault Dweller had to look like. That's what a hero is supposed to be, in her mind... all big and amazing, capable of doing anything they wanted. Indomitable and unstoppable. It's one of the reasons she subconsciously couldn't accept Little Pip as being the Vault Dweller until BJ had lost pretty much all those romantic aspirations of what heroes are supposed to be.

Exactly. Old Blackjack did the bare minimum, where as new Blackjack does all she can to help. Old Blackjack would see new BJ as a hero, which I think is part of why she'd resent herself. She never wanted to be a hero, it just happened as a result of what she was doing. New Blackjack is extremely active, doing things to help wherever she can. Old Blackjack wouldn't want to do that, like you said she just wanted to survive. Leave hero stuff to heroes like the Stable Dweller. She wouldn't look at new BJ and think, "Wow that's me! I'm a hero!" She would look and think something more like, "What am I doing? There's no way I can accomplish that! Leave it to some hero like the Stable Dweller."

Edit: I'm basically trying to say that BJ didn't want to be a hero originally. She didn't want publicity, she didn't want people looking up to her, she just wanted to be. And new BJ, as a hero, has all of that. Everyone recognizes her. People want to help her because of her actions. People remember and are affected by what she does. Old BJ saw herself as an idiot, so she wouldn't want that.

[Vinylshadow]

I also think 'old' Blackjack would be disappointed in 'hero' Blackjack

"Huh...thought she'd be taller"

Didn't LittlePip also have some delusions about what made a hero? And here she is, a smaller-than-average unicorn doing things to save the Wasteland

Also very disappointed at lack of BlackjackxLittlePip lesbian tomfoolery

[Borsuq]

Am I the only one that thinks that the old Blackjack would want to sleep with the new Blackjack?

[Vinylshadow]

Which 'new' Blackjack are we talking about in terms of sleepage?


Although, now that BJ's once again full-on flesh and blood, this is a tad outdated...

[Dutcher]

The only thing I can see happening is one big Blackjack orgy.

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