Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[WavemasterRyx]

Now, on the side note... I've been playing Fallout 2 some time ago, and one of it's mechanics made me wonder: what is Blackjack Charisma? Or her other statistics, for that matter?

Well I had a notepad sitting around that is titled "Blackjack's stats"...  I think Somber posted them at some time in the past, and that's where I got them, probably...

Str: 4, Per: 6, End: 5, Cha: 6, Int: 4, Agi: 6, Luck: 9; Traits: Fast shot, Kamakaze

[OneMoreDaySK]

Alicorn Blackjack would have a lot more STR and END due to being cyborg, PER would be augmented eyes & EFS, Not sure about CHA or INT, but she is learning. AGL would take a bit of a drop and LUK would be maxed. Funny how she pretty much got reset except for CHA INT and LUK.

[SilentCarto]

But in the end, she still felt sorry for Brass. The whole reason her freakout with Brass happened was because she's been guilting herself over practically every named enemy.

Feeling sorry for being forced to kill someone is a little different from them being "sympathetic". When you can sympathize with a villain, it means you can understand why they did what they did and you're not sure you wouldn't have done the same. Brass was not sympathetic in the least, even if BJ wasn't cheering and posing over the body.

So, Somber, I understand you'll eventually be writing (already wrote?) a chapter of The Sweetie Belle Chronicles...   

[Somber]

I am?

[O. Hinds]

I'm a bit curious about that hint too, actually. I was planning to just wait and see what happened, but since it's been brought up...

[Icy Shake]

But in the end, she still felt sorry for Brass. The whole reason her freakout with Brass happened was because she's been guilting herself over practically every named enemy.

Feeling sorry for being forced to kill someone is a little different from them being "sympathetic". When you can sympathize with a villain, it means you can understand why they did what they did and you're not sure you wouldn't have done the same. Brass was not sympathetic in the least, even if BJ wasn't cheering and posing over the body.

So, Somber, I understand you'll eventually be writing (already wrote?) a chapter of The Sweetie Belle Chronicles...   

Can you link to source?

[O. Hinds]

But in the end, she still felt sorry for Brass. The whole reason her freakout with Brass happened was because she's been guilting herself over practically every named enemy.

Feeling sorry for being forced to kill someone is a little different from them being "sympathetic". When you can sympathize with a villain, it means you can understand why they did what they did and you're not sure you wouldn't have done the same. Brass was not sympathetic in the least, even if BJ wasn't cheering and posing over the body.

So, Somber, I understand you'll eventually be writing (already wrote?) a chapter of The Sweetie Belle Chronicles...   

Can you link to source?

WARNING: Link is directly to chapter
On average I like The Sweetie Chronicles, but my instantaneous feelings are rather uneven as a natural result of me getting so much of my enjoyment of stories from the worlds and The Sweetie Chronicles being all about going from one dramatically different world to another.  I'm slightly miffed that the story chose to visit Pink Eyes, but then, I suppose that there is an argument to be made for pretty much any other FoE story traumatizing Sweetie Belle even more.

edit:
Oh, and it looks like the next story in line changed from The End of Ponies (which I tried but couldn't seem to get in to; I was actually waiting to see if The Sweetie Chronicles gave me a stronger interest in it) to Backwards Through the Mirror, which I seem to recall reading at least some of prior to it being on FIMFiction... except not. Oddly, some parts of the description seem very familiar while others I have no memory of at all. Eh.

[RoboRed]

I love End of Ponies and I was so disappointed when WandererD announced that he was going to be dropping that crossover and instead cross over with Backwards Through the Mirror. I swear, EoP and anything related to it is just cursed now...  

Thankfully, I've already read Backwards. It's....weird. But, it's entertaining.

[SilentCarto]

I am?

Uh... aren't you? In the Pink Eye chapter of The Sweetie Chronicles...

Spoiler:

[OneMoreDaySK]

Thought I asked this about TSC a couple of threads ago with the same response from Somber. Huh. I was saying there's no way that this is going to happen unless you get a sanitized portion of the story, like following Xanthe around. Way too much for the filly to handle,  I'd think.

*scrunchy face*

Yeah I do remember asking this a long time ago.

[SilentCarto]

Thought I asked this about TSC a couple of threads ago with the same response from Somber. Huh. I was saying there's no way that this is going to happen unless you get a sanitized portion of the story, like following Xanthe around. Way too much for the filly to handle,  I'd think.

You may want to hold off on that assessment for a chapter or two. It sounds like Sweetie's metaplot is about to skew rather darker than you'd expect.

[OneMoreDaySK]

Meh, still don't think it can get Blackjack levels of dark, or- hmmm. Which do you think is more grimdark, for lack of a better term at the moment, Blackjack's or Murky's story?

[Somber]

The problem is I don't read it, so I don't know how I could write it.

[FeatherDust]

It only takes fifty people, IIRC, to block editing access.

Only if they're in edit mode. If you changed the links from the main document and/or the forum post links to =preview, you could have as many watchers as desired without impacting edit mode.

[FeatherDust]

Are there any unsympathetic villains in this story?

I think it depends what you mean by sympathetic. Does that mean they have an understandable and even admirable motivation? A tragic villain who knows they're doing bad things but can't stop, either because they literally can't or believe their evil is still the best possible method? A villain who is evil through ignorance or misinformation?

Does a villain with an admirable goal become unsympathetic if he's sufficiently unprincipled, vicious, or sadistic? Do they become sympathetic again if they're sufficiently humbled by later circumstance?

Somber likes to give his (major) villains realistic reasons to be villains. Very few of them are simply pants-on-head insane, sociopathically selfish, or actively evil 'for the lulz'. Rather, people who do evil are doing it because they think it's the best way to accomplish their goal.


* Just about every named villain in PH (and usually in FoE in general) has a stated reason for what they're doing. You rarely have a villain whose reasons are unexplored or incomprehensible.

But Gorgon is one, I think. He's sympathetic in that he's a tragic monster who was transformed against his will, but he had a choice; nobody forced him to become an enforcer and murder people who wouldn't toe the line. He intentionally harmed innocents, chose to be a monster -- and for that reason I don't find him very sympathetic. His writing suggests he was brain damaged by the transformation, possibly, but he's highly functional, so I have to think he still has a moral compass. Even if it's bent, I can't imagine how that would justify what he was doing. We never really understand what his mindset is.

Amadi is another, actually. We still can't tell what he's really up to (and I expect at least one more betrayal -- of Cogs, this time -- out of him before things wrap up). Nothing we know about his background seems to indicate he's a good person forced to do terrible things by circumstance, or anything of the like. At best, he's a puppet or dupe who's being manipulated (directly or indirectly, respectively) by the Eater of Souls, and all the other options are downhill from there, with possibilities that include delusions of godhood and omnicidal maniac.


* Many villains have ultimately admirable motives, but some don't.

Brass was just sadistic and sociopathic. She enjoyed hurting others -- having power over others and using that power for her own enjoyment. I don't recall any redeeming value to her.

Charm is similar. She is, to me, unsympathetic. Her age and (now) current humbling circumstances help, but the only sympathy I can muster is a sort of head-shaking sense of "she's a lost cause, and so young -- she could've done better, what happened to make her this way?" She's vicious, which children commonly are, but she seems more vicious and less empathetic than your average kid. She has the wherewithal and willingness to do almost anything, and not just to get what she wants, but to make anyone who crosses her hurt.

Sanguine is also in this category. Wanting to save his family is certainly understandable, but knowing what he knows about stasis and about what he'll have to do to give them new bodies, it's not an admirable goal. It's selfish to cling to them when it's obvious he needs to let them go. He's crazy; and while I understand his reasons, didn't feel bad when he got offed.

Deus was one of these, apparently doing everything he did just to immerse himself in drugs, sex, and violence. While I feel bad for what happened to him, like Gorgon, he chose to become a monster. He might be getting better now, I guess. I still have a hard time feeling much sympathy for Deus, however much I might have felt for Doof.


* And then there's the Knight Templar style of villain, who has an ultimately admirable goal (usually "fix the world") but goes about it with horrible methods (and often has a twisted idea of what constitutes a fix). Some Knights Templar have the whole "I'm creating a paradise that has no place for me in it" thing, accepting that they're doing evil for the greater good, while others just consider that the end justifies the means and seem to think everyone should be totally on-board with that.

This covers almost every other villain in the piece. Just as a few examples, Steel Rain has a reasonable goal (peace in the wasteland) but his methods and even how he defines victory are somewhere between horrible and insane. Dawn is the same thing, only her vision of the future has become a nightmare. No objective outsider looking at what she (now) wants could be in favor of it. She wants to fix the wasteland by making people not be people any more.

[Silver136]

Are there any unsympathetic villains in this story?

Amadi is another, actually.  We still can't tell what he's really up to (and I expect at least one more betrayal -- of Cogs, this time -- out of him before things wrap up).  Nothing we know about his background seems to indicate he's a good person forced to do terrible things by circumstance, or anything of the like.  At best, he's a puppet or dupe who's being manipulated (directly or indirectly, respectively) by the Eater of Souls, and all the other options are downhill from there, with possibilities that include delusions of godhood and omnicidal maniac.

Deus was one of these, apparently doing everything he did just to immerse himself in drugs, sex, and violence.  While I feel bad for what happened to him, like Gorgon, he chose to become a monster.  He might be getting better now, I guess.  I still have a hard time feeling much sympathy for Deus, however much I might have felt for Doof.

I do see Amadi betraying Cogs at some point as well. It seems to me that with the soul of Luna back in, she's going to try and assert herself as a goddess and Amadi probably wouldn't like that.

And actually, Deus was forced to act the way he was. Sanguine had the super med-x that Deus needed to numb his augments. Without it he was constantly hurting, and Sanguine had the recipe.

[O. Hinds]

Only if they're in edit mode. If you changed the links from the main document and/or the forum post links to =preview, you could have as many watchers as desired without impacting edit mode.

Hey, good idea! It won't work for people who get to the hub page via other means, but hopefully it will help at least a bit.

[SilentCarto]

Meh, still don't think it can get Blackjack levels of dark, or- hmmm. Which do you think is more grimdark, for lack of a better term at the moment, Blackjack's or Murky's story?

Not every chapter is "Black", you know. Sometimes, entire chapters go by without people getting horribly mutilated or fed through rock crushers. Certainly, PH on a bad day is something to behold. But not every day is like that.

[Icy Shake]

Are there any unsympathetic villains in this story?

Amadi is another, actually.  We still can't tell what he's really up to (and I expect at least one more betrayal -- of Cogs, this time -- out of him before things wrap up).  Nothing we know about his background seems to indicate he's a good person forced to do terrible things by circumstance, or anything of the like.  At best, he's a puppet or dupe who's being manipulated (directly or indirectly, respectively) by the Eater of Souls, and all the other options are downhill from there, with possibilities that include delusions of godhood and omnicidal maniac.

Deus was one of these, apparently doing everything he did just to immerse himself in drugs, sex, and violence.  While I feel bad for what happened to him, like Gorgon, he chose to become a monster.  He might be getting better now, I guess.  I still have a hard time feeling much sympathy for Deus, however much I might have felt for Doof.

I do see Amadi betraying Cogs at some point as well. It seems to me that with the soul of Luna back in, she's going to try and assert herself as a goddess and Amadi probably wouldn't like that.

And actually, Deus was forced to act the way he was. Sanguine had the super med-x that Deus needed to numb his augments. Without it he was constantly hurting, and Sanguine had the recipe.

I disagree here: while it's true that his job as Sanguine's enforcer was essentially based on extortion, the ultraviolence and serial rape were all Deus. That's not to say that he can't be seen as something of a sympathetic character—that's how I felt even before his return as a tank—but you can't cover all his actions under the same "[unwillingly] following orders" excuse.

Meh, still don't think it can get Blackjack levels of dark, or- hmmm. Which do you think is more grimdark, for lack of a better term at the moment, Blackjack's or Murky's story?

True fact. You've got "Birthday," "A Good Day," most of the Society and Thunderbolt arcs, and at least a chapter or two after Brimstone's Fall that are relatively light. It probably won't hurt that by the point Sweetie's pretty formidable herself, likely even more so when she shows up than currently.
Not every chapter is "Black", you know. Sometimes, entire chapters go by without people getting horribly mutilated or fed through rock crushers. Certainly, PH on a bad day is something to behold. But not every day is like that.

True fact. You've got "Birthday," "A Good Day," most of the Society and Thunderbolt arcs, and at least a chapter or two after Brimstone's Fall that are relatively light. It probably won't hurt that by the point Sweetie's pretty formidable herself, likely even more so when she shows up than currently.

[Guest]

Icy, out of curiosity, are you changing people's quotes intentionally?

I notice you do it every so often, and if I scroll up I can clearly see Silent didn't post that. It's none of my business really, but if you are doing it intentionally, why?

[Somber]

I don't understand.  Am I supposed to write the next chapter of Sweetie Belle Chronicles?  I don't read it so I don't know how it works.  I understand it's a cross over fic but I don't understand more than that.

[Icy Shake]

Icy, out of curiosity, are you changing people's quotes intentionally?

I notice you do it every so often, and if I scroll up I can clearly see Silent didn't post that. It's none of my business really, but if you are doing it intentionally, why?

Sometimes it's intentional: that's mostly just cutting out sections unrelated to what I'm responding to in an attempt at greater clarity and less space taken up. Sometimes I embolden or italicize specific sections (which upon further reflection I should probably mark as my formatting) when they are more relevant than the rest. In this case it was a formatting error.

[Guest]

Thanks, that was making me scratch my head a bit. Cutting out the unrelated bits I understand. I was just confused why you'd add stuff.

[O. Hinds]

@Icy Shake:
Ah, that confused me, too.

@Somber:
Not the next chapter, at least. As for a later chapter, if the author hasn't contacted you yet, probably not. Though that does make me wonder what the foreshadowing was supposed to be.

[Downloaded Skill]

Just found out FO:E is being printed again and I'm curious. Are there any plans to have PH printed? It's separated into books already and I wouldn't mind having the set on my shelf.

[Scienza]

Just found out FO:E is being printed again and I'm curious. Are there any plans to have PH printed? It's separated into books already and I wouldn't mind having the set on my shelf.

That would be an entire rainforest.

[neoaustin]

Just found out FO:E is being printed again and I'm curious. Are there any plans to have PH printed? It's separated into books already and I wouldn't mind having the set on my shelf.

That would be an entire rainforest.

 
and it would be totally worth it.

[SilentCarto]

I don't understand.  Am I supposed to write the next chapter of Sweetie Belle Chronicles?  I don't read it so I don't know how it works.  I understand it's a cross over fic but I don't understand more than that.

Well no, not unless Wanderer D asks. Like I said, I'd just sort of assumed that he'd asked already.

I guess it's entirely possible that I misinterpreted the hints, but... *shrug* I'm flummoxed.

[Derpmind]

*Facehoof*

The Sweetie Chronicles crossover chapter with Pink Eyes is from November 9th, 2012. (You can see the date of each chapter next to its link on the fic's main page.) And it's been over seven months since the last update to the fic. I'd guess that, whatever the author planned, he probably never even got around to starting on a PH crossover. I guess someone should PM the author to ask about it, so since SilentCarto's confuzzled everyone I elect him for the deed.

[SilentCarto]

*Facehoof*

The Sweetie Chronicles crossover chapter with Pink Eyes is from November 9th, 2012. (You can see the date of each chapter next to its link on the fic's main page.) And it's been over seven months since the last update to the fic. I'd guess that, whatever the author planned, he probably never even got around to starting on a PH crossover. I guess someone should PM the author to ask about it, so since SilentCarto's confuzzled everyone I elect him for the deed.

Well, you see, I got into reading it because I've been asked to edit a chapter. So it's apparently still active.

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