Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Scienza]

I'd just like to point out that you don't actually have evidence that Blackjack is still alive.  :D

WHAT THE OH MY GOD

[OneMoreDaySK]

Meh. Calling your bluff Hinds.
No one in the cast knows as much as Blackjack at this point about Project Horizons and is able to do anything about it / is working for a villianous character.

Besides, it's not like Blackjack hasn't died already.
Death Count: 3

[Shady]

Took some time digging trough the chapter and the following comment thread, probably going to read it again because my head feels a bit  

Not an editing matter but two personal suggestion that sounded decently in my head:

Edit: Haha Derpmind it appears we were posting a about perks at the same time

Hm, I think that those are the sorts of decision that Somber would need to make.

Of course, couldn't find a suggestion box so I dropped it here.

[OneMoreDaySK]

Disassembled? Now I'm imagining PH2, where the main character Scotch has to travel the wasteland searching for Blackjack's parts to put back together.

[FeatherDust]

Well like I commented before; I strongly believe that the death of Blackjack's mind in the computer is legit and irrevocable. However her soul is still in that blank, and shorn of the mind that Cogs identified as the source of great inner strife, she will probably be more serene and more magical than ever before.

[OneMoreDaySK]

So what attributes would you ascribe to each part of Blackjack. Body is easy enough with the physical augmentations visible. But what of her mind and soul? Methinks her mind contains all of her guilt of the shoulda-woulda-coulda's and her soul contains her virtue, if we label it perseverence / determination.

[WavemasterRyx]

I'd just like to point out that you don't actually have evidence that Blackjack is still alive. :D

]Of course she's still alive, she just flew off to stop Goldenblood.

[FeatherDust]

Hell, she's probably (physically) a virgin again.

Or in other words... a maiden?

So what attributes would you ascribe to each part of Blackjack. Body is easy enough with the physical augmentations visible. But what of her mind and soul? Methinks her mind contains all of her guilt of the shoulda-woulda-coulda's and her soul contains her virtue, if we label it perseverence / determination.

Something like that, but it's very much unclear for now.

I mean, Cogs said her soul alone would lack the thoughts and memories that make her Blackjack; that without her mind, she might "eventually" recover some of who she was before, but she wouldn't be the same person.

But on the other hand, Cogs is a literally soulless machine (and thus may consciously or subconsciously denigrate the importance of souls) who had a vested interest in Blackjack not firing the missile (and thus may have been lying).

And really, consider the evidence. Blackjack's soul has wandered outside her body at least twice before without seeming to lose her innate Blackjackness, at least to any degree we could tell from her narration.  Echo's been a soul without an attached mind for a long time, and seems to be pretty normal (though we can't say how much he resembles his previous self).  Rampage's souls, when they fully emerge, are themselves -- if anything, they're simply confused about when and where they are, but they don't seem significantly different than those same personalities when seen in memory orbs.

And finally, the rules might just be different for Blackjack. She's star-blooded (or something), and has walked with the stars herself.  She's not a normal soul, so even if Cogs's comments were both accurate and honest, they still might not entirely apply to Blackjack.

[O. Hinds]

Okay, okay, so I guess that, under the circumstances, it's not very believable. I'm trying to keep the suspense up here, though!

Of course she's still alive, she just flew off to stop Goldenblood

Because Cognitum is well known for her skill at impersonation. :)
(Applebot doesn't count.)

[OneMoreDaySK]

*imagines omake where Cog!Blackjack tries to converse with the cast and fake being Blackjack*

[FeatherDust]

Hahaha!

"Blackjack, you seem strange lately."

"IN WHAT WAY AM I STRANGE, SMALL FILLY?"

"Um, well there's that whole yelling thing."

"MY CYBORG VOICE IS MALFUNCTIONING."

"Also you don't seem to love Glory anymore."

"I ASSURE YOU THAT MY AFFECTIONS REMAIN UNCHANGED, MINISCULE EQUINE."

"And you haven't had a drink of whiskey in days."

"FOOL! I WILL DRINK ALL THE WHISKEY!"

*cue drunken Nightmare Cogs sobbing about her sister*

[Shady]

Which raises another question, is Cogjack able to enter other ponies dreams an if so in what form? That would create some awkward situations.

[Scienza]

So what attributes would you ascribe to each part of Blackjack. Body is easy enough with the physical augmentations visible. But what of her mind and soul? Methinks her mind contains all of her guilt of the shoulda-woulda-coulda's and her soul contains her virtue, if we label it perseverence / determination.

Body, about the same as what you said. Mind, I'd also include her mental clarity. She's not an egghead, but she's tactically brilliant in a crazy sort of way. She sees the easiest way from point A to point B, which is why her plans almost always give the impression of mental instability.

Now, on to her virtue. Most people might disagree with me, but I see her perseverence as a reflection of her larger virtue: strength. Her will and determination are iron, even when her mind isn't. Blackjack will do the hard things that need to be done because only she can shoulder the weight. She carries the collective burden of her guilt well beyond where any other person would break because breaking would spell doom for those who rely on her.

The other reason why I'd say Blackjack's virtue is more akin to strength rather than perseverence is that when you get down to it, perseverence is an inherently good virtue and strength isn't. There's a darkness within Blackjack, and when her mind cannot reign in that darkness, she'll tear through anything and anyone weaker than her.

[SilentCarto]

Also, will she even be able to fight now? As a fresh clone, she probably wouldn't have the same muscle mass as her old body without going into the effect of losing her augments. Ditto for tolerances for alcohol and chems.

I'm not sure about that -- I didn't get the impression that BJ worked out, so her clone probably has her "base" muscularity. The shiny new liver, you're probably right about. Heck, she'd better be careful about drinking at first just because of her perception of her own tolerances after living with a mecha-liver for a few months. Assuming, that is, that whatever mind she winds up with has the same propensity for drinking. That was probably influenced by her desire to escape from herself and not think.

Hell, she's probably (physically) a virgin again.

Star "Maiden"? It's a possibility.

Is magical knowledge and ability physical or mental? In other words, should she be able to cast the same spells now, or does she need to physically build her horn "muscles" again to be able to cast magic bullet and whatnot?

Well... Sanguine described magic as projecting one's own soul-frequency into the world to create the desired effect. Combined with Celestia's words to Twilight when she got her cutie mark, I would suppose that magical strength is a function of the soul, while control -- producing a specific result -- is mental.

Knowing what Cognitum said about the conflict between BJ's mind and soul, I could posit that this conflict was what caused her to have such poor magical skills. We know that she felt disinterested and unfulfilled in her assigned job in 99, which suggests that the conflict was already in place from a young age. Further, BJ either doesn't seem to remember why she got her cutie mark, or she avoids thinking about it, as if she's repressed it in connection to the traumatic experience of Hatches's death. In fact, she changed her name shortly afterward, as if she wanted to be someone else rather than herself -- much as Morning "Fallen" Glory did. (I start to wonder if she was particularly close to Hatches.) If that's the case, she may discover that magic comes to her much more easily now than it ever has.

Who needs a gun when you can cast hundreds of magic bullets daily?

Edit: Huh. I just noticed that the very first perk she picked up after setting hoof outside the Stable was an improvement in the precision of her magic. I wonder if that had something to do with her finally being able to actively get out there and protect those who needed protection.

Further Edit: There seems to be a certain resonance between Scoodle's death and the way Hatches got crushed. I wonder if that's significant.

[SilentCarto]

I'd just like to point out that you don't actually have evidence that Blackjack is still alive.  :D

Blackjack, perhaps not. Go Fish, I'd put money on...  

And finally, the rules might just be different for Blackjack. She's star-blooded (or something), and has walked with the stars herself.  She's not a normal soul, so even if Cogs's comments were both accurate and honest, they still might not entirely apply to Blackjack.

And kissed by Discord!

"FOOL! I WILL DRINK ALL THE WHISKEY!"

*cue drunken Nightmare Cogs sobbing about her sister*

Pfffthahahaha. I love it.   

[Scienza]

I'd just like to point out that you don't actually have evidence that Blackjack is still alive.  :D

Blackjack, perhaps not. Go Fish, I'd put money on...  

Y'know, given Discord's very, very interesting Many-Worlds theory conversation this chapter, wouldn't it be awesome if Go Fish ends up being Blackjack from show-canon or a different AU, complete with adorable musical numbers and a preference for horse-pun-based profanity.

[Scienza]

Y'know, given Discord's very, very interesting Many-Worlds theory conversation this chapter, wouldn't it be awesome if Go Fish ends up being Blackjack from show-canon or a different AU, complete with adorable musical numbers and a preference for horse-pun-based profanity.

Blackjack: Far out! So there's an infinite number of parallel universes?
Discord: No, just the two.
Blackjack: Oh, well, I'm sure that's enough.

...'cause, IIRC, Discord only really talked about vanilla MLP's universe in comparison with the one they are in. I don't remember him ever hinting at some multiverse theory.

It's not really that he's saying that there are infinite universes, just that it reflects the many-world's theory in that there are two identical universes with the exception of a single change, and the resulting consequences rising from that. Like, say, if Blackjack managed to convince Midnight and got laid rather than finding P-21.

[Scienza]

Y'know, given Discord's very, very interesting Many-Worlds theory conversation this chapter, wouldn't it be awesome if Go Fish ends up being Blackjack from show-canon or a different AU, complete with adorable musical numbers and a preference for horse-pun-based profanity.

Blackjack: Far out! So there's an infinite number of parallel universes?
Discord: No, just the two.
Blackjack: Oh, well, I'm sure that's enough.

...'cause, IIRC, Discord only really talked about vanilla MLP's universe in comparison with the one they are in. I don't remember him ever hinting at some multiverse theory.

It's not really that he's saying that there are infinite universes, just that it reflects the many-world's theory in that there are two identical universes with the exception of a single change, and the resulting consequences rising from that. Like, say, if Blackjack managed to convince Midnight and got laid rather than finding P-21.

"reflects" has nothing to do with it.
This is Back To The Future... even Doctor Who.
The future is set and proper and changes in the past mess up the future, which then is supposed to be corrected.
There are no alternate worlds. Just one long string that, occasionally, gets a little tangled when you start messing with the quantum foam.

edit:
If he was talking about multiple universes he wouldn't describe the one they're in as being "wrong" and then vaguely describe the vanilla one as being "right".
There's only one universe for the god of chaos, and Fallout Equestria isn't how that universe is "supposed to be".

Mayhaps, but it still leaves Discord in a weird position, since if the divergence point rendered his FiM-verse null, he shouldn't be aware of it at all, since his scenario never existed for him to remember. There has to be a vanilla universe for him to remember in the PH-verse. It all ties back to the good ol' grandfather paradox, which no time-travel work has ever really properly dealt with (except maybe Timelines, and that was because it involved parallel universes). If you want to get really meta, you could say that the show has continued to be produced after the point at which PH diverges.

Of course, all of the previous argument is kinda annulled by the fact that Discord is a quantum god, but DAMN IT, I WANT BLACKJACK TO PLAY BLACKJACK WITH BLACKJACK, BLACKJACK, AND BLACKJACK, TWO OF WHICH ARE DRUNK, ONE OF WHICH IS PREGNANT, AND THE LAST HAS BEEN PLAYING POKER THE ENTIRE TIME.  

[O. Hinds]

I take the view that swicked (no offense meant) is expecting far too much order out of the God of Chaos.  For all we know, the "correct" universe changes every pi*asparagus days.  If it was anyone else, sure, then I'd be bothered, but... chaos!

[Derpmind]

In fact, she changed her name shortly afterward, as if she wanted to be someone else rather than herself -- much as Morning "Fallen" Glory did.

Is it said anywhere when exactly BJ changed her name from the one her mother gave her? She might have just changed it because she liked the game of Blackjack better and Go Fish is a card game that's kinda childish. I don't really think the name "Go Fish" is supposed to be anything but a joke because it's a terrible name for an adult pony who's into card games.

@Future: I prefer to interpret it as the nebulous and maleable future has a few prophecies and such that Discord and immortal friends (+Pinkie) could know about a bit, but all that got kicked in the head because the EoS and friends were able to nudge things toward a completely different direction. (Surprise! War is bad!)

You don't need time travel or alternate universes, all you really need is some kind of way to see big landmarks through the mist of future possibilities.

(Also I kinda hate multiverse "Everything that's possible exists" settings. When literally everything exists somewhere that you can actually travel to, than the only way anything matters is by ignoring everything that doesn't exist in your slice of the pie. It's the ultimate example of sticking your head in the mud.)

[Silver136]

In fact, she changed her name shortly afterward, as if she wanted to be someone else rather than herself -- much as Morning "Fallen" Glory did.

Is it said anywhere when exactly BJ changed her name from the one her mother gave her? She might have just changed it because she liked the game of Blackjack better and Go Fish is a card game that's kinda childish. I don't really think the name "Go Fish" is supposed to be anything but a joke because it's a terrible name for an adult pony who's into card games.

If I'm remembering correctly, didn't BJ get her cutie mark playing blackjack with Rivets and co.? Something about meager math skills and some other stuff...

[Scienza]

I was just suddenly overwhelmed by the irony that John de Lancie has to read the script in order to play Discord.

In fact, she changed her name shortly afterward, as if she wanted to be someone else rather than herself -- much as Morning "Fallen" Glory did.

Is it said anywhere when exactly BJ changed her name from the one her mother gave her? She might have just changed it because she liked the game of Blackjack better and Go Fish is a card game that's kinda childish. I don't really think the name "Go Fish" is supposed to be anything but a joke because it's a terrible name for an adult pony who's into card games.

If I'm remembering correctly, didn't BJ get her cutie mark playing blackjack with Rivets and co.? Something about meager math skills and some other stuff...

She evidently changed it around the time she first met P-21 (at least, according to that one dream so it's more than a little suspect). It is pretty weird, given Stable 99's obsession with maintaining the status quo.

[SilentCarto]

...'cause, IIRC, Discord only really talked about vanilla MLP's universe in comparison with the one they are in. I don't remember him ever hinting at some multiverse theory.

There's at least one other world in play -- the Equestria Girls world. And if you count the comics, there's apparently an additonal Mirror Mirror world.

Don't you think it's kind of silly to assume that there are ONLY two or three worlds out there, rather than uncountable permutations on the theme?

[SilentCarto]

If he was talking about multiple universes he wouldn't describe the one they're in as being "wrong" and then vaguely describe the vanilla one (something about Fluttershy reforming him, I believe) as being "right".
There's only one universe for the god of chaos, and Fallout Equestria isn't how that universe is "supposed to be".

But that's not quite what he said, was it? He said he had a script, and the universe had gone off-script at some point. If alternate worlds exist -- and they do, in the canon universe -- then he's unaware of them, or at least unable to peek between them. So we're left with two possibilities: FOE represents an alternate future for the one and only Equestria, or it represents a permutation that can exist side by side with the world we know in the show. I prefer the latter interpretation, but there's no "right" or "wong" to it. It's whatever you want to believe about the meta-cosmology of a fictional world.

[SilentCarto]

Is it said anywhere when exactly BJ changed her name from the one her mother gave her? She might have just changed it because she liked the game of Blackjack better and Go Fish is a card game that's kinda childish. I don't really think the name "Go Fish" is supposed to be anything but a joke because it's a terrible name for an adult pony who's into card games.

A children's card game!

But seriously, BJ is terribly vague about that whole event, which is why I sort of suspect she's trying to avoid thinking about it at all. The only scene we get of her changing her name is a semi-dream encounter with a young P-21 which may or may not have actually happened, but I expect she repeatedly had similar conversations even if this particular one was something she dreamed up.

You're right; it's entirely possible that she just plain didn't like her name. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. But what fun would that be?

[SilentCarto]

Given I don't go for multiverse theory, no.
I'd be more willing to believe those other worlds were created with magical artifacts whose intent was to create parallel worlds using the original as a base and, again, the Fallout Equestria world doesn't exist in parallel with the vanilla MLP:FIM world. It overwrites it, which is why Discord feels it is "wrong" instead of just "different".
He describes it as things that were supposed to happen, didn't. Supposed to.
Discord feels a sense of fate and that that fate has been corrupted and screwed in some way... not that merely different choices were made than those that led to the vanilla MLP world.

You seem to think that he would necessarily be aware of other worlds or timelines, if they existed. Let's assume he has no knowledge of anything beyond the bounds of this one universe, whether there's a multiverse out there or not, and has no particular insight into the future. Discord was given a "script" -- a projected course of events -- by some higher power when he entered Equestria. He was tasked to play the villain in order to teach lessons to certain ponies. And for some reason that he's unable to explain, some of those events failed to happen. That fully accounts for his comments about how it's "wrong" without requiring any alternative timelines, universes, or wibbly-wobbly balls of timey-wimey stuff. Events simply didn't follow the schedule he was given at the outset.

Now, given that his comments about what should have happened can be plausibly explained without any anachronistic or extra-universal insight, can we agree that the question of multiverse vs. single timeline is entirely a matter of opinion?

[neoaustin]

are you all seriously having a debate about the existence of the multiverse? i love this fandom.  

anyways i agree with SilentCarto. Discord was given the script for the Vanilla Timeline, however since we have derived from the intended course (pretty majorly at that) it didn't match up in any way with how he was told it would work out, Discord also said that he was enjoying the Chaos being made at first so he didn't think anything of it, he said it himself that chaos IS change. It wasn't until things took a darker turn that he started to see that he was the only one still following the script at all. Discord didn't like how things where going even before the Project Chimera,so naturally he would consider this version "wrong" since its so much darker than the script said. Discord's brand of chaos is more childish and lighthearted, so naturally he would follow the script that would allow that. This world's chaos is the opposite of what he's about.

i probably could have structured that better but im not good at this stuff... kinda fun though 

[neoaustin]

Now, given that his comments about what should have happened can be plausibly explained without any anachronistic or extra-universal insight, can we agree that the question of multiverse vs. single timeline is entirely a matter of opinion?

...well, I kinda know what Somber had to say on this matter and what Discord was intended to have meant, but if you feel there's enough wiggle-room to call my statements an "opinion", sure.

Swicked also, unless somber writes his thoughts on this into the fic somehow, then it would be just as non-canon as Kkat's blog posts. also i don't think that last question was talking about the fic.

[Scienza]

...'cause, IIRC, Discord only really talked about vanilla MLP's universe in comparison with the one they are in. I don't remember him ever hinting at some multiverse theory.

There's at least one other world in play -- the Equestria Girls world. And if you count the comics, there's apparently an additonal Mirror Mirror world.

Don't you think it's kind of silly to assume that there are ONLY two or three worlds out there, rather than uncountable permutations on the theme?

Given I don't go for multiverse theory, no.
I'd be more willing to believe those other worlds were created with magical artifacts whose intent was to create parallel worlds using the original as a base and, again, the Fallout Equestria world doesn't exist in parallel with the vanilla MLP:FIM world. It overwrites it, which is why Discord feels it is "wrong" instead of just "different".
He describes it as things that were supposed to happen, didn't. Supposed to.
Discord feels a sense of fate and that that fate has been corrupted and screwed in some way... not that merely different choices were made than those that led to the vanilla MLP world.

Regardless of how they were created, the Equestria Girls and Mirrorverse still exist parallel to the main continuity (time progresses in Equestria Girls outside of the main 'verse).

It doesn't necessarily take overwriting to make a universe feel wrong. Imagine you had a device which allowed you to jump universes. When you did so, you found yourself in a world where the pacifistic society in which you lived is now locked in a brutal war of attrition. All the people you knew are now the untouchable heads of a new government with powers far beyond the stipulations of laws or ethics. Oh, and Goldenblood is having sex with your roommate. And then you get sealed in a silver suit and have your intestines liquified for two centuries. That's going to elicit a feeling of wrongness no matter how you slice it.

Still, to each to his own, I guess.

[OneMoreDaySK]

On the multiverse theory, methinks it's more like there are several paths at a universe can progress. The 'main' storyline we take as a straight path, parallel universe such as the EqG and Mirror Mirror are branches that follow the same direction, and FO:E branches off and heads in an entirely new direction unreleated to the main storyline.
Horrible attempt at illustrating:
----------------------------->[Main]
        |    \______________>[Parallel]
        |
        |
        |
        |
        v [Alternate Universe]

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