Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Loud_Taffy]

@Overlong
I have to agree with you on one thing, it does lack soul.

[Scienza]

Hey guys, I think BJ just got a new ball gown...

For Whom the Sweetie Belle Toils spoilers:

Most villains have some redeeming qualities that make them relatable, or at least something that makes them worth some form of respect. Sometimes villains are even the most interesting characters to read about. But Steel Rain... does he have any good qualities, and I am just not seeing them? The only instance where he had something that could make me like him was at his introduction when he came to Stronghoof's rescue... and then I began to dislike him like half a page later.

Steel Rain strikes me as someone with good ideals, but he's completely off base as to how to get there. He's been seduced by Cognitum's promises of peace through technology and superior firepower, though he seems to be regretting that by now. And worse, he's a pragmatist; unlike Stronghoof, he lacks a sense of honor that would prevent him from doing a little evil for the greater good.

But I think he really does want the best for the Wasteland. It's just that as a Steel Ranger, presumably from birth, he tends to think that every problem looks like three inches of case-hardened steel. He seems to take the idea of "better life for ponykind" seriously, but like most Rangers, he tends to look down on Wastelanders as violent barbarians (which isn't entirely incorrect...) who need to be swept aside to make the land safe rather than the very ponies who need to be taught a better way of life.

I think he's capable of enlightenment, if he chose to take off the blood-colored glasses he's wearing, but I don't think he's going to. Even if you took him for a walk down the middle of Chapel, with everypony working together and living in peace, he would still sneer at it as a bunch of ramshackle huts just waiting for a raider band rather than a group of good ponies doing the best they can with what little they have.

That's the impression I get from him, anyway.

Aye. Steel Rain's an idealist. He doesn't follow Steel Ranger orthodoxy that techology is to be hoarded, rather he believes that it must be used to enact change. However, he believes that force is the only means with which change truly occurs and so he won't hesitate to whatever it takes. He's kind of like the Red Eye of the piece.

[Scienza]

I don't know that Steel Rain is an idealist. He always struck me as someone just attempting to thrive within his environment. To lead the steel rangers and finish their enemies for good, then to not just survive the coming of cognitum but to finish out on top. He's Sanguine minus the family. He's Horse minus the inferiority complex. He's a jerk who wants to thrive, not unlike most of the wasteland. He's just got better allies and a skillset that places him near the top of the heap.

He is an opportunistic jerk, but there's more to him than just wanting to be the wasteland king. Steel Rain despises stagnation, wanting to disrupt the status quo because the status is not quo. Even if he doesn't want the kingdom of pious inebriation desired by Blackjack, he's still striving towards his ideal wasteland, one in which strength is power and the paradigm can shift at any moment. Arguably his most defining quote is “Do you really think that a gun like this should be left in a weapons locker to collect dust?” because he believes that power is to be used rather than hoarded.

[OneMoreDaySK]

Technically the phrase can be extended to Steel Rangers as a whole. Why have ponies in power armor and not do anything with them? Then his 'Might Makes Right' kicks in along with a visible opportunity provided by Blackjack, and he is where he is in the story because of that.

[FeatherDust]

Technically the phrase can be extended to Steel Rangers as a whole. Why have ponies in power armor and not do anything with them?

I'm not sure what you mean -- Do you mean most rangers share that idea of not leaving weapons to sit (which is actually counter to their whole philosophy) or did you mean Steel Rain would feel the same way about the rangers as about leaving Folly in a locker?

[Loud_Taffy]

I just finished reading Silent Ponyville. I was like WTF Twilight has a Silent Hill spell!?

Could you imagine that in Final Fantasy?

 

Cloud- cast Silent Hill

Sephiroth- got the f#&k out of there and lost

Cloud- wins at the cost of his soul

[OneMoreDaySK]

Taffy, if you want to discuss other stories, might I recommend posting in <a href="https://cloudsville.rpg-board.net/t1037p30-fanfic-recs-what-are-you-reading#211915">this thread</a> instead?

[Dekshuduph]

To add to the Steel Rain discussion:
I only really saw him as a villain on the Celestia where he had obvious power over Blackjack, but more recently he seemed like more of a gag character. We next see him in Dawn's introduction, where he seemed to be posing as a wimpy sidekick played off as a joke. So when he started to do an important thing in Perceptions, it felt like Blackjack would see him as an ‘enemy of your enemy’ because that's what I thought he was brought back for. Since all that did was help Cog towards getting Blackjack (in that a hindrance has been deterred), Cog then put him in Dawn's role to mindlessly help her capture Blackjack. It's going to be very easy for Blackjack to talk him out of this, I believe, since he's all about power and yet he isn't in a position of power. Doesn't anyone else find that situation funny?

Taffy: To understand SK's point, ever since the general chat thread was started this topic has been meant to discuss Project Horizons and not much else, so posting other things here makes you look out of place. If you have nothing to add to the discussion of this story, please quit derailing the topic and post somewhere else.

[Loud_Taffy]

Taffy: To understand SK's point, ever since the general chat thread was started this topic has been meant to discuss Project Horizons and not much else, so posting other things here makes you look out of place.  If you have nothing to add to the discussion of this story, please quit derailing the topic and post somewhere else.

oh... ok sorry.

[LunarWaltz]

Mwahahaha! I come from the cesspool of 4chan to insult PH and call it a failure to no end and to tell everybody to go die in a train accident. Mahayana my evil plan is perfect! Oh wait, one problem with that plan. I actually like PH still! :P

Anyways, good day everybody in here. Pleasure to meet all of you. Apologies for the rude introduction, I just know individual's option of 4chan and couldn't help playing with it. Alrighty then... So yeah, I came in here to hop on the ride that never ends that is coming to an end. Yeah a bit of a mind trip but still. Well, my computers were damaged due to unfortunate events so I haven't been able to do much. Instead, I got hooked onto reading FoE, then PH, then MN7, then Gardener, then Junk Pony, then Stablequest, and then some heroes. Anyways, I decided to re-read PH (started 3 days ago and only on ch19 need to stop slacking!)

Anyways, cause the author seems to be overly critical, I must say this. By no means is it perfect. Admittedly things are subjective but I could easily rant about Goldenblood, the portrayal of the princesses, Psalm, and many other things, but those are rather minor. Really the largest gripe I have with this series is a sense of power creep. Now, I know that some of you all are rolling your eyes at me around this point but hold on! Probably the biggest charm for me was the character interaction. That was what sold it particularly the odd love/hate relationship that BJ and P-21 had. But, as item advanced, the ante kept on scaling upwards and BJ was upgraded to counter it at each stage. The problem, as likely mentioned before, was this continuously diminished the roles of other characters. Besides Rampage and Psalm, P-21, Scotch, and Glory were just outclassed meaning you had to push the, away lest they die horridly. Another critique is it feels like it tried to grab too many plot hooks and they all just dragged the story to a slow process and now it feels like it is a rush to finish all the plot points.

Now, I criticize it but the important point is every writer is imperfect, every book flawed. There are stupid things in A game of thrones, stupid things in Harry Potter, and stupid things in LoTR. There will always be flaws with everything so I'm just admitting that. Besides that, I must thank you for a fun ride. Sure, I rolled my eyes at certain things, sure, my eye tweaked at certain details... But gosh darn it I wouldn't demand to trade back all that time reading it. Heck, I certainly like this more than FoE. I rather liked Rampage, enjoyed the whiskey queen, and, honestly, P-21 is one of my favorite characters in all of the Foe and Fallout material I have read. Along with that, some people joke about the angst but I always felt it fitting. Maybe it is because I have a few screws loose in the head but I could feel for the characters, feel for P-21 and BJ how they stupidly blamed the self for things, how BJ angsting over death struggling between the moments of adrenaline fun and then somber regret.

Only a few chapters left and I stand, if you don't mind a bad joke, nervousited for the conclusion to this behemoth of a story. Yeah, I'll say it. I'm a bit nervous. Conclusions can really make or break things. How can the other friends help? What else will happen? I can't help but hope that BJ doesn't sacrifice herself but that is more because it feels like the lesson is that sacrifice isn't always good. And admittedly Kip leaked some things that get me antsy about it all and my mind thinks too much. At the same tie though, I am rather excited to see how everything gets tied up.

Well then, it was a pleasure meeting all of you. Now then, I have a couple dozen chapters to devour for whatever reason that I feel compelled to do such. Good luck and hope everybody's day is going well.

-BJ out (my initials are BJ. No joke, people laugh at it all the time)

[Icy Shake]

On Steel Rain, I don't think I've ever picked up too much on any underlying motivation. It's seemed to me like he wants to take over because . . . he didn't like the fact that Crunchy Carrots was taking over? It never felt to me like he had a particular end game or agenda for after he's in charge of Hoofington or the Wasteland.

LunarWaltz: Welcome! I hope you aren't doing all that reading on a smart phone, but apparently that's fairly common among this group.

If it's the kind of thing people are interested in, One Man's Pony Ramblings has a review of Somber's "What's Eating Rainbow Dash?" up today.

[O. Hinds]

Welcome to the forum, LunarWaltz!

[SilentCarto]

Aye. Steel Rain's an idealist. He doesn't follow Steel Ranger orthodoxy that techology is to be hoarded, rather he believes that it must be used to enact change. However, he believes that force is the only means with which change truly occurs and so he won't hesitate to whatever it takes. He's kind of like the Red Eye of the piece.

I don't think he's an idealist. That implies that he cherishes and pursues ideals of nobility and honor, in some form. Stronghooves is an idealist. Steel Rain, rather, has shown a strong pragmatic streak. That's what makes him dangerous; you can't count on him to avoid taking innocent life, or to "fight fair" by any definition, or to speak the truth and live by his word. He's clearly got something that he's working for, but he's shown every willingness to kill, mislead, and betray to get to it. That's not to say he's a snake with no morals or honor at all -- he clearly takes debts seriously, at least -- and he doesn't preferentially choose underhanded methods over others, like Goldenblood did. He simply finds the shortest route from A to B and shoots whatever's in the way. Combined with his rather narrow definition of who's worthy to share in his new world, that makes him hard to predict and hard to understand.

Don't ask me where Dawn lies on that idealism spectrum. I think she started out on the idealist side, but the wasteland beat all the nice out of her along the way.

[Loud_Taffy]

 I hope you aren't doing all that reading on a smart phone, but apparently that's fairly common among this group.

Hey, was that a shot!?

[Silver136]

 I hope you aren't doing all that reading on a smart phone, but apparently that's fairly common among this group.

Hey, was that a shot!?

I may have to declare war on you for that one...

[LunarWaltz]

@Icy Shake actually on the iPad of all things. Still probably not good on the eyes but I already wear glasses anyways :P (not used to forum or iPad so apologies if messages are a bit odd)

[Loud_Taffy]

 I hope you aren't doing all that reading on a smart phone, but apparently that's fairly common among this group.

Hey, was that a shot!?

I may have to declare war on you for that one...

*laughs nervously*

[Vergil]

One of these days I'll finish my great big essay post I've been working on. Till then, still stuck using my phone to be here...makes it annoyingly complicated to keep up with everything!

[geekladd]

I'm just saying, sometimes phones are more convenient. I've read every chapter after 60 on my smart phone just because they wouldn't let me bring my computer into work

[Evilgidgit]

I've read a few chapters on my phone too, and it can be surprisingly easier to navigate.

[OneMoreDaySK]

@New folks
Welcome to the crazy train, where the ride never ends. Wait, no. That's the chat thread. Either way, welcome aboard.

@Dawn on the spectrum
She's a basket case. Actually, from reading the comic sequels of Avatar, I'm drawing parallels between her and Azula. Both thinks they deserve more than what they have, and though at one point talented, they choose to go down dark paths even with family still caring (which I think they still do to a degree, but not stupid enough to insta-forgive in this wasteland setting).

[Meleagridis]

Question for the editing team about Chapter 62B. Blackjack gets a mook named Flame Pinion to watch her after her breakdown. He follows her for a while, and just before BJ makes the tower climb she tells him to cover her. So in theory he is right there, following behind, while she has that power crisis at the top of the tower. He is never explicitly stated to stay behind or have fallen in battle. He just kinda vanishes.

Is there a mention I'm missing that explains why he isn't there or can't help Blackjack up?

[SilentCarto]

@Dawn on the spectrum
She's a basket case. Actually, from reading the comic sequels of Avatar, I'm drawing parallels between her and Azula. Both thinks they deserve more than what they have, and though at one point talented, they choose to go down dark paths even with family still caring (which I think they still do to a degree, but not stupid enough to insta-forgive in this wasteland setting).

Huh. That's an interesting parallel to draw, but I'm not sure how valid it is. As far as we can tell, Azula was always cracked. "My own mother thought I was a monster. She was right, of course, but it still hurt!" Dawn seems to have undergone a more explicit shift into the "dark paths" you mentioned.

They aren't really motivated by the same things, either. Azula is a sadistic, power-hungry megalomaniac. Dawn is more of a "Utopia justifies the means" idealist. I think she just hit so many discouragements in her search for a better life for everyone that she became willing to accept terrible acts to reach that goal. "Necessity is the mother of atrocity," to quote Lacunae.

"Cover me" means "stay behind me"?
I always see the term used when one guy is staying behind and providing covering fire while the other moves forward outside of cover. I figured that's what he was doing... staying put and shooting at anyone that looked ready to attack BJ.

You are correct. About what "cover me" means, I mean. I would assume he covered her against the running battle, which was far below the roof of the tower.

[Loud_Taffy]

[Meleagridis]

"Cover me" means "stay behind me"?
I always see the term used when one guy is staying behind and providing covering fire while the other moves forward outside of cover. I figured that's what he was doing... staying put and shooting at anyone that looked ready to attack BJ.

Oh. Alright. I kind of assumed the implication was 'Make sure people don't shoot me as I fly to the top of this massive tower' so I figured he'd follow behind. I misunderstood.

As for Steel Rain, I've got to say I'm impressed by his refusal to take implants. It could be out of fear of being controlled or maybe some kind of basic integrity (maybe both) but either way it actually makes him stand out to stay normal among all these other villains. Wouldn't it be interesting if, after all these immortal warriors and elder evils and corrupt super AIs and other freakish villains, the single unmodified pink pony was the only one left standing when the dust fell?

He's clever. Maybe not clever enough to outsmart a kill implant. Or maybe he is. I'm really looking forward to some personal villain time to get a real look at him- I can't remember getting a right proper speech from him yet.

[SilentCarto]

Oh. Alright. I kind of assumed the implication was 'Make sure people don't shoot me as I fly to the top of this massive tower' so I figured he'd follow behind. I misunderstood.

Well... it was. The people who wanted to shoot her were several thousand feet below her destination, though.

As for Steel Rain, I've got to say I'm impressed by his refusal to take implants. It could be out of fear of being controlled or maybe some kind of basic integrity (maybe both) but either way it actually makes him stand out to stay normal among all these other villains. Wouldn't it be interesting if, after all these immortal warriors and elder evils and corrupt super AIs and other freakish villains, the single unmodified pink pony was the only one left standing when the dust fell?

I noticed that too. I was surprised how adamant he was about that. I wonder whether he really believes that strongly in the distinction between flesh and steel, or if that's to ensure that he can turn on Cognitum when necessary...

[Luminous Lead]

I noticed that too. I was surprised how adamant he was about that. I wonder whether he really believes that strongly in the distinction between flesh and steel, or if that's to ensure that he can turn on Cognitum when necessary...

He was saying this while Dawn was literally helpless in front of him, and if he has any info from above the clouds then he'll know how that turned out for all the modified units as well. Steel Rain is smart, he knows how easily the winds change, and what it would mean to be weighed down when they do. Might as well not become dependant on sucking down crystals if food will do the job, especially if you're being tracked by a sociopathic computer.

[OneMoreDaySK]

@Dawn on the spectrum
She's a basket case. Actually, from reading the comic sequels of Avatar, I'm drawing parallels between her and Azula. Both thinks they deserve more than what they have, and though at one point talented, they choose to go down dark paths even with family still caring (which I think they still do to a degree, but not stupid enough to insta-forgive in this wasteland setting).

Huh. That's an interesting parallel to draw, but I'm not sure how valid it is. As far as we can tell, Azula was always cracked. "My own mother thought I was a monster. She was right, of course, but it still hurt!" Dawn seems to have undergone a more explicit shift into the "dark paths" you mentioned.

They aren't really motivated by the same things, either. Azula is a sadistic, power-hungry megalomaniac. Dawn is more of a "Utopia justifies the means" idealist. I think she just hit so many discouragements in her search for a better life for everyone that she became willing to accept terrible acts to reach that goal. "Necessity is the mother of atrocity," to quote Lacunae.

Don't really think Azula always was, despite her claims. Seems to be as more of trying to gain approval from her parents. Ursa was always more focused on the less talented Zuko, and Ozai... Well, he's definitely in the "might makes right" camp with Steel Rain. Eventually not getting TLC, at least in her mind, makes her crack and be the 'monster' she is by the end of the show.

Now on to Dawn. Got to question her "Utopia Justifies the Means". Yes she gets hit with everything going wrong time after time, much like Blackjack. But I think what broke her was when Cogitum specifically pointed out that Blackjack was the chosen one, not Dawn. If she were truly on board with the 'Utopia' idea, she'd have not interfered. But instead, much like Azula being envious of all the attention Zuko gets, (good from Ursa, bad from Ozai), Dawn similarly takes it out on Blackjack, who has taken the spotlight in Hoofington.

[Scienza]

@Dawn

Dawn represents a conflict that Blackjack has always struggled with and worked to repress which is the difference between working to do the right thing and working to do the right thing because it makes you feel better. Dawn's doesn't believe in her utopia, she believes that she will bring about the utopia. Just look at her "My cutie mark means that I'm wasteland Jesus" lines from the fifties.

[OneMoreDaySK]

Wait, so you're saying Dawn is suffering from CMFIS?
Still sticking with my Azula parallel. Girl tries to do things not for Fire Nation. Or even for her dad for the sake of being her dad, but more like so her dad would at least acknowledge her, which would make her feel better than when she was being unintentionally ignored by her mom.

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