Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[neoaustin]

... holy fuck i just realized something. my head has Kkat pegged to look like a humanized Little Pip... damnit brain     

[neoaustin]

so, random question for all except O.hinds (cause pony creator) is your account picture something you made?

Wrong thread for that question mate, try the chat thread. But I will answer your question: no my avatar was simply one of the first pictures that came up when I googled 'string theory' and its suitably awesome.

well you guys seem to chat on hear occasionally, and it's not always about Horizons.

[Stringtheory]

so, random question for all except O.hinds (cause pony creator) is your account picture something you made?

Wrong thread for that question mate, try the chat thread. But I will answer your question: no my avatar was simply one of the first pictures that came up when I googled 'string theory' and its suitably awesome.

well you guys seem to chat on here occasionally, and it's not always about Horizons.

Well, most of those discussions either seem to stem from Somber's comments or usually something FO:E/PH related... The reason why we split off the chat thread was because people were complaining about the amount of random chatting (multipage pun wars for instance) they had to read through to actually find out stuff about PH. Depends on whose definition of 'chatting' you use, but we've agreed to keep topics such as yours to the chat thread.

[O. Hinds]

Probably better Kkat doesn't say. Might result in her/him unintentionally making ammo for the people who do just hate the story for the sake of it.

Ah, good point.

[SilentCarto]

I just found it too.  Thanks.  There don't seem to be any details regarding why she stopped...

As I understand it, it's because PH conflicts too heavily with her own headcanon on aspects of the wasteland beyond the scope of FoE. And she admits it IS headcanon -- she has certain ideas in her head that she never wrote down, or which she elaborated in her local tabletop RPG campaign. So instead of trying to hold two canons in her head at the same time, she just doesn't read other FoE fics in general.

[O. Hinds]

Ah, thanks. I can certainly understand getting attached to one's headcanon. :)

[Caoimhe]

Popping in from my internet presence hiatus to say that Maud Pie is actually Somber. We don't see her cutie mark in the last episode for this reason. Knew it all along.

[O. Hinds]

Also AWESOME episode. I give it a 9.75. Maud Pie is me.

Hopefully he doesn't mind me posting that. :)

[O. Hinds]

In other news, while we're not getting the chapter out this weekend (things keep coming up for us, unfortunately), I can tell you that, at least to me, the first twenty pages seem pretty awesome. :)

[O. Hinds]

Oh, and Somber said that he was hoping to make this one extra long to make up for the delay in getting it out.

[Dekshuduph]

Oh, and Somber said that he was hoping to make this one extra long to make up for the delay in getting it out.

Nice triple post :P Sounds great, very much looking forward to it.

I don't know if this has been brought up before, but is the number ‘21’ recurring at all in this story? I only remember it having some significance, if any, to the first chapter where it's in both of the main characters' names—for Blackjack it's a lucky number but for P-21 it's an unlucky number.

[O. Hinds]

Ah, sorry.

Regarding 21, I'm not entirely sure. It's seven times three, though, and I believe that it's a significant number in the card game blackjack.

[Evilgidgit]

Extra long, eh? The document Somber writes PH in must be enormous!

[Scienza]

Ah, sorry.

Regarding 21, I'm not entirely sure.  It's seven times three, though, and I believe that it's a significant number in the card game blackjack.

[mind explodes]

[Somber]

It's extra long and extra terrible... u.u

Anyway, that was the relationship at the start.  P-21 and Blackjack.  They're together till the very end.

[Harmony Ltd.]

A song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2xg9o7-MCc

[Stringtheory]

It's extra long and extra terrible... u.u

You say that every chapter and it's never true.  

[SilentCarto]

Also AWESOME episode.  I give it a 9.75.  Maud Pie is me.

Hopefully he doesn't mind me posting that.  :)

I must be badly out of sync with the rest of the fandom, because I really liked the Breezy episode, but I didn't like Maud Pie at all -- I felt the whole ep consisted of "X tries to connect with Maud. Maud stares blankly and rebuffs them. Repeat." Half the time, I wanted to slap her in the face and yell, "Can you possibly manage to be even remotely polite and not shut down every conversation someone tries to start with you?!" It got a few laughs out of me, but it seemed like Maud just brought the action to a screeching halt every time she came on screen.

I hasten to add that it wasn't anywhere near the face-imploding levels of stupidity in Pinkie Keen or the 20 minutes of intense discomfort that was Over a Barrel. It was just... meh. I don't think I'll be rewatching it soon, anyway.

Oh, and Somber said that he was hoping to make this one extra long to make up for the delay in getting it out.

I'll be squeeing in the corner over here while I try not to point out that extra length probably translates to even longer before it's done.
(Yeah, yeah, I know there's no interval shorter than a week here, so it really doesn't matter whether it's finished on Monday or Friday.)

I don't know if this has been brought up before, but is the number ‘21’ recurring at all in this story?  I only remember it having some significance, if any, to the first chapter where it's in both of the main characters' names—for Blackjack it's a lucky number but for P-21 it's an unlucky number.

I would rather say that it's not that the number 21 is specifically significant, but the story in general uses a lot of gambling imagery, and Blackjack and P-21 deliberately reference the same game.

I was under the impression P-21 and Scotch had now essentially left the story now.

Only until Glory works out how to counteract Enervation...  

[Icy Shake]

Also AWESOME episode.  I give it a 9.75.  Maud Pie is me.

Hopefully he doesn't mind me posting that.  :)

I'll take his (and Caoihme's) word for it, merely noting that I had no idea that Maud was a big fan of the Equestrian equivalent of shounen anime. Unless . . . is that rock poetry?  

Ah, sorry.

Regarding 21, I'm not entirely sure.  It's seven times three, though, and I believe that it's a significant number in the card game blackjack.

I can't tell if you're serious.
At any rate, a fun connection is that a blackjack is kind of like a critical hit, since it's an automatic win against anything but a dealer's blackjack and traditionally pays out three-to-two instead of one-to-one for any other winning hand.

Also AWESOME episode.  I give it a 9.75.  Maud Pie is me.

Hopefully he doesn't mind me posting that.  :)

I must be badly out of sync with the rest of the fandom, because I really liked the Breezy episode, but I didn't like Maud Pie at all -- I felt the whole ep consisted of "X tries to connect with Maud. Maud stares blankly and rebuffs them. Repeat." Half the time, I wanted to slap her in the face and yell, "Can you possibly manage to be even remotely polite and not shut down every conversation someone tries to start with you?!" It got a few laughs out of me, but it seemed like Maud just brought the action to a screeching halt every time she came on screen.

I hasten to add that it wasn't anywhere near the face-imploding levels of stupidity in Pinkie Keen or the 20 minutes of intense discomfort that was Over a Barrel. It was just... meh. I don't think I'll be rewatching it soon, anyway.

I felt that going through the mane six one by one wasn't really enough to carry twenty minutes, and I really wish that Spike had been involved, as I think that he was the one with the best chance of at least having something with her, since I think that their personalities would mesh better than hers with the rest. He's still kind of the snarky, sarcastic sidekick, after all. Also, there's their shared interest in rocks. The biggest issue I had with the episode, though, was the ending, and how by doing the necklace exchange without some exposition to set up that it didn't mean the same thing to them as it did Pinkie they devastated the moral (just because someone is friends with your friend doesn't mean that you'll be their friend too, and that's okay) by effectively claiming to be best friends on the sole basis that they all care about Pinkie. Granted, because I did enjoy Maud's interactions with everyone, I liked the episode better than at least the last few weeks', and far better than the last episode to torpedo this moral, "A Friend in Deed."

I was under the impression P-21 and Scotch had now essentially left the story now.

Only until Glory works out how to counteract Enervation...  

This.

Chapter Forty Running Thoughts:

Chapter Forty Overall Thoughts:

Chapter Forty Editing:

Other Chapter Editing:

[O. Hinds]

I can't tell if you're serious.

What here would I be being not serious about?

re corrections:
Ah, thank you very much as always.

After Blackjack emerges, we learn from files by the bed she wakes up in that on the day the bombs fell, before he was assassinated as part of Partypooper, Chief Justice Fairheart was looking into options for what to do after the war, including deposing or limiting Luna and prosecuting the ministry mares for a laundry list of crimes. Blackjack considers, and decides that yes, they did need to be punished, or at the least thrown out of government.

…You know, I wonder: would that have actually worked? Even if Equestria had won instead of the bombs falling (and there weren't any world-ending difficulties with the Eater or the like), there'd be a generation of teenagers who grew up in a constant war and, for most of their lives, with Image's propaganda and Morale's intrusive loyalty enforcement. If the war continued longer before Equestria's victory, there might very well be a generation of fighting age who'd been surrounded since birth by the work of the Ministries. The government finally bringing victory would only increase support, and it would result in a lot of soldiers and war support industries with a lot more time on their hooves. Even if we don't consider the O.I.A., the alicorns, and the like, would an attempt to prosecute the Ministry Mares and decrease Luna's power have worked… or would it have resulted in the removal of the would-be prosecutors at best and full civil war at worst?

[neoaustin]

…You know, I wonder: would that have actually worked?  Even if Equestria had won instead of the bombs falling (and there weren't any world-ending difficulties with the Eater or the like), there'd be a generation of teenagers who grew up in a constant war and, for most of their lives, with Image's propaganda and Morale's intrusive loyalty enforcement.  If the war continued longer before Equestria's victory, there might very well be a generation of fighting age who'd been surrounded since birth by the work of the Ministries.  The government finally bringing victory would only increase support, and it would result in a lot of soldiers and war support industries with a lot more time on their hooves.  Even if we don't consider the O.I.A., the alicorns, and the like, would an attempt to prosecute the Ministry Mares and decrease Luna's power have worked… or would it have resulted in the removal of the would-be prosecutors at best and full civil war at worst?

 you know its bad when the apocalypse becomes the best outcome.....

[Guest]

Finished reading 63. I actually enjoyed this chapter a lot more than I thought I would. Particularly liked Glory in this one.

Not much to say on editing. Did find one thing, but that's it. Probably nothing though.

possible 63 editing:

[Scienza]

…You know, I wonder: would that have actually worked? Even if Equestria had won instead of the bombs falling (and there weren't any world-ending difficulties with the Eater or the like), there'd be a generation of teenagers who grew up in a constant war and, for most of their lives, with Image's propaganda and Morale's intrusive loyalty enforcement. If the war continued longer before Equestria's victory, there might very well be a generation of fighting age who'd been surrounded since birth by the work of the Ministries. The government finally bringing victory would only increase support, and it would result in a lot of soldiers and war support industries with a lot more time on their hooves. Even if we don't consider the O.I.A., the alicorns, and the like, would an attempt to prosecute the Ministry Mares and decrease Luna's power have worked… or would it have resulted in the removal of the would-be prosecutors at best and full civil war at worst?

Ponies also had a thousand years of Celestia's rule, but they were able to adapt to the new government relatively quickly. So, I think that ponies would be able to transition from Luna's government to a new system.

Now, would the new system fall apart? Yes, it probably would. The pegasus isolationists who formed the Enclave would probably secede as soon as they could, and I can't see the dirtsiders getting along with one another much better. Along with remaining Royalists, ponies would probably start falling under city and even Ministry divisions. Even with the war over, there would probably be a lot of lingering bad feelings towards Zebras and other non-ponies, which would lead to further divisions and more conflict.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Not to mention this begs the question of -how- exactly the war could end.

Given the stage seemed set for a good ol' genocide against the Zebra...

[O. Hinds]

Finished reading 63. I actually enjoyed this chapter a lot more than I thought I would. Particularly liked Glory in this one.

Not much to say on editing. Did find one thing, but that's it. Probably nothing though.

possible 63 editing:

Yes, I don't see any reason to change it. Sorry.

Ponies also had a thousand years of Celestia's rule, but they were able to adapt to the new government relatively quickly. So, I think that ponies would be able to transition from Luna's government to a new system.

Hm, I disagree. Celestia, if she ever used propaganda, secret police, public loyalty enforcement, etc., stopped centuries ago, and Celestia's rule was one of peace that was ended when she abdicated on her own initiative. I don't think that it can be compared to Luna's reign and an attempt to end it (or at least radically change its nature) by force.

Now, would the new system fall apart? Yes, it probably would. The pegasus isolationists who formed the Enclave would probably secede as soon as they could, and I can't see the dirtsiders getting along with one another much better. Along with remaining Royalists, ponies would probably start falling under city and even Ministry divisions. Even with the war over, there would probably be a lot of lingering bad feelings towards Zebras and other non-ponies, which would lead to further divisions and more conflict.

I agree, and this is probably another reason why the government wouldn't be legally removed from power. The people who support the status quo know exactly what they want and are united behind it. The people who want change are united by not wanting the status quo, and beyond that they break into different and often mutually hostile blocs.

Not to mention this begs the question of -how- exactly the war could end.

Aye; that's one of the things I left out for purposes of this discussion, given how unlikely it seems that the war, given how it was developing, would have ended in a clear victory for either side (I'm of the view that the zebras won, though, since "pyrric victory" still includes the word "victory".). Possibly the zebras waited too long to fire their megaspells, enabling Equestria to get its defenses working?

Given the stage seemed set for a good ol' genocide against the Zebra...

Hm, no, I'd say, or at least only a partial genocide, unless the way to end the war was a megaspell to wipe them all out in one stroke. I think making them a slave species would be more likely.

[Guest]

@Hinds
Technically, partial genocide is still genocide, at least under our definitions. Nobody even has to die for a genocide to happen, IIRC. To quote Article 6 of the Rome Statute of the ICC:

For the purpose of this Statute, "genocide" means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring
about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

[O. Hinds]

Ah, thank you; I did not know that.

[SilentCarto]

Regarding 21, I'm not entirely sure.  It's seven times three, though, and I believe that it's a significant number in the card game blackjack.

I can't tell if you're serious.

A facetious answer isn't necessarily incorrect.   

…You know, I wonder: would that have actually worked?  Even if Equestria had won instead of the bombs falling (and there weren't any world-ending difficulties with the Eater or the like), there'd be a generation of teenagers who grew up in a constant war and, for most of their lives, with Image's propaganda and Morale's intrusive loyalty enforcement.  If the war continued longer before Equestria's victory, there might very well be a generation of fighting age who'd been surrounded since birth by the work of the Ministries.  The government finally bringing victory would only increase support, and it would result in a lot of soldiers and war support industries with a lot more time on their hooves.  Even if we don't consider the O.I.A., the alicorns, and the like, would an attempt to prosecute the Ministry Mares and decrease Luna's power have worked… or would it have resulted in the removal of the would-be prosecutors at best and full civil war at worst?

*cough*
“Don’t you understand?  The bombs falling are the best chance for us.  In two hundred years, there will be another chance for other ponies to do better.  To make this world right again!  LittlePip will be the first.  Then Blackjack.  Then others!  It’s the slimmest of slim chances, but it’s the only chance there is.  But I can’t do what needs to be done because I’ll be dead in Manehattan!”

From the rest of that section, I gather that there were very few outcomes that didn't involve a full megaspell exchange, and if there were, they were too horrifying to consider.

[Icy Shake]

I can't tell if you're serious.

What here would I be being not serious about?

Oh, it's all correct, of course. But the phrasing seemed, to me, to be a little humorous, in that it was a mathematical fact without any context presented to connect it to the story,"I believe that it's a significant number in the card game blackjack" seems to have either a certain lack of confidence or a heavy dose of irony.
@Silent: I wrote this hours ago but only got to somewhere with reliable enough internet to post now, but your point is well taken.

After Blackjack emerges, we learn from files by the bed she wakes up in that on the day the bombs fell, before he was assassinated as part of Partypooper, Chief Justice Fairheart was looking into options for what to do after the war, including deposing or limiting Luna and prosecuting the ministry mares for a laundry list of crimes. Blackjack considers, and decides that yes, they did need to be punished, or at the least thrown out of government.

…You know, I wonder: would that have actually worked? Even if Equestria had won instead of the bombs falling (and there weren't any world-ending difficulties with the Eater or the like), there'd be a generation of teenagers who grew up in a constant war and, for most of their lives, with Image's propaganda and Morale's intrusive loyalty enforcement. If the war continued longer before Equestria's victory, there might very well be a generation of fighting age who'd been surrounded since birth by the work of the Ministries. The government finally bringing victory would only increase support, and it would result in a lot of soldiers and war support industries with a lot more time on their hooves. Even if we don't consider the O.I.A., the alicorns, and the like, would an attempt to prosecute the Ministry Mares and decrease Luna's power have worked… or would it have resulted in the removal of the would-be prosecutors at best and full civil war at worst?

Well, the alicorns wouldn't be an issue, at least not as they existed in FoE, since the Goddess wouldn't have been formed. So at least there's that. As for a civil war, I'd expect that at least there would be an attempted secession by a faction of the pegasi, since Fairheart was also looking into the laws related to that. I wouldn't be surprised, of course, if there was a multi-level civil war, with many or even most pegasi siding with Equestria. But in the end, I do expect that the government would stay in place, rather than undergoing a constitutional revolution.

Given the stage seemed set for a good ol' genocide against the Zebra...

Hm, no, I'd say, or at least only a partial genocide, unless the way to end the war was a megaspell to wipe them all out in one stroke. I think making them a slave species would be more likely.

Maybe I'm just playing the starry-eyed optimist here, but I'd like to think that we'd be looking at a West German de-Nazification or the postwar Japanese experience where, yes, the government was right out and there were even some executions, but on the whole the people were treated pretty well and recovered comparably to the continental Allies.

[SilentCarto]

Maybe I'm just playing the starry-eyed optimist here, but I'd like to think that we'd be looking at a West German de-Nazification or the postwar Japanese experience where, yes, the government was right out and there were even some executions, but on the whole the people were treated pretty well and recovered comparably to the continental Allies.

I don't know... I think Hinds' point is well-founded. In a single generation, you have a shift from the Sugar Bowl world of Equestria to government-sanctioned hatred and a might-makes-right ethos that's completely foreign to the ponies in power and the structures through which they exercise that power. Even if Luna said, "Stop, that's enough," what could she do to stop their own alicorn super-soliders if they decided it wasn't over until Zebrica was glowing dust? Not that I'm at all confident that Luna would say that.

I think civil war isn't unlikely when people raised to hate are suddenly deprived of their common foe.

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