Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Guest]

I put it on pastebin for a day if you need it. http://pastebin.com/EjGUQbYL

Thank you very much. But I'm still on 61, I've been trying to get GDocs to work for the last couple days. I appreciate the thought.

[Guest]

I put it on pastebin for a day if you need it. http://pastebin.com/EjGUQbYL

Thank you very much. But I'm still on 61, I've been trying to get GDocs to work for the last couple days. I appreciate the thought.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/57571524/PH/FoEPHch61.docx
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/57571524/PH/FoEPHch62a.docx
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/57571524/PH/FoEPHch62b.docx

If you'd prefer a different format, just say so. The files take up very little space on my dropbox.

Damn, looks like my tablet can't read those files. No idea what it can read... Thanks for trying though Swicked.

[Guest]

There we go. Thank you swicked.

[RoboRed]

Spoiler:

[Aonee]

Spoiler:

[WavemasterRyx]

Well I don't know if I'll be able to read all of it tonight, but I have my copy downloaded and I'm really looking forward to reading it when I can.

[Somber]

Spoiler:

[RoboRed]

More Boo fodder, Ryx. That's all you need to know.

[StoneSlinger88]

Okay, chapter's read. I'm almost out of cheese and the float's been digesting for a good while now. Oh, and for who said I forgot them, I had a few condoms in the drawer here. They make great balloon animals.

Spoiler:

[Moodyman90]

Still reading, made it to that one point where Blackjack has to make a big decisions.

Spoiler:

Keep at it Somber! Even with this pause in reading, I've been enjoying the chapter and can't wait to see how the rest of it goes. And how the next chapter, whenever you and the brushing team gets the time to write and edit it of course and no rush on that, goes as well.

[Derpmind]

So, first off, I don't know what's up with Somber's post above. When I quote it I get absolutely nothing, so I don't know why it's not in a spoiler thingy like it should be.

Anyways, I'm just gonna copypaste this from Notepad. Since it's Notepad, there's probably going to be tons of spelling errors, so I apologize for those.

Ch. Table Flip 9001:

[Derpmind]

So even though it's late and all, we've got a few people in the teamspeak server. I don't know how long everyone's going to hang around for, but if anyone wants to join it's easy. Download page is here, install teamspeak (but don't install Overwolf, that's optional and a huge file), connect to this server: 8.9.36.41:9207 The password is phcc

You don't need a microphone to join in btw. There's a textchat window and meanwhile you get to talk to people with silly voices. Silly people with voices. Something like that.

[Derpmind]

Right, well, if anyone's still around here now still and you decided not to join the teamspeak server, hurry up and join the teamspeak server already. There's five of us here and we're not sleeping any time soon.

[Moodyman90]

And finally finished the chapter.

I would love to see Blackjack's plan in an animated form. If done properly and true to what happened in story, it would be one of the most awe inspiring and fear inducing things ever created.

Reply to Blackjack's question at the end.:

[Exodus Hero]

Spoiler:

[Derpmind]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

[Train Dodger]

Wow, that was... wild. 

Spoilery Impressions:

Oh, and for the editors:

Chapter 62b Proofing:

And finally finished the chapter.

I would love to see Blackjack's plan in an animated form. If done properly and true to what happened in story, it would be one of the most awe inspiring and fear inducing things ever created.

Reply to Blackjack's question at the end.:

Yeah, I second that. PH is a very visual story, almost better suited to sequential art than prose. Don't get me wrong, despite the rough patches, I like it just fine as it is. It's just such an over-the-top spectacle that it seems like a waste to not depict scenes like these in a visual medium.

[Exodus Hero]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

[O. Hinds]

@Derpmind:

Wow, that was... wild. 

Spoilery Impressions:

Oh, and for the editors:

Chapter 62b Proofing:

And finally finished the chapter.

I would love to see Blackjack's plan in an animated form. If done properly and true to what happened in story, it would be one of the most awe inspiring and fear inducing things ever created.

Reply to Blackjack's question at the end.:

Yeah, I second that. PH is a very visual story, almost better suited to sequential art than prose. Don't get me wrong, despite the rough patches, I like it just fine as it is. It's just such an over-the-top spectacle that it seems like a waste to not depict scenes like these in a visual medium.

Ah, thank you.

Grammar: Intended what, now?

No, that's a valid usage.

Grammar: Delete the comma after the "and" highlighted in bold.

Hm…  It might be able to work without the comma, but I'm not sure; since I know that it works with the comma, I'm leaving it.  Sorry.

Prose: Heh, did she actually say prawn, or is that a typo? We got some District 9 up in here.

Not a typo.  :)

[Icy Shake]

And here's Part Two!
So much awesome.  :D  It’s a long one, too: fifty pages.

However, I'm afraid that I have some bad news for Icy Shake: Somber has decreed that "Raptor", "Thunderhead" (the ship class, not the city), and "Vertibuck" are now to be lowercase.  Very, very sorry.

Well, that took a long time to get through. As for your apology, for what? I have always been at war with Eastasia.

Chapter Sixty Two Part Two Running Thoughts:

Chapter Sixty Two Part Two Editing Matters:

I'll get to other stuff tomorrow, including more comprehensive thoughts on the whole. For now I'll just say this:

Spoiler:

[WavemasterRyx]

*hugs Somber gently*

That was a really incredible chapter, sir.

I really want to say something more moving and deep, but now that I'm not reading, I'm struggling to stay awake... and to not break down in tears when I think about that scene...  It was really very well done though.

I'm glad your job finally went through, I just hope you'll be okay through December until it starts.  Try to take care, sir, and thank you.

[CD]

I'm gonna have to stock up on snacks and drinks for tonight in order to properly savor this. Adding in another MLP episode, this is looking to be a good and deserved weekend.

[Kippershy]

I'm gonna say something, and I don't give a fuck who it offends.
Somber.
You have literally morphed Blackjack into the literal Mary Sue everyone has been calling her for a while now.
You once spoke about good OC's and yet your main character has now become the very definition of a shit MLP OC.
The only difference? Yours is popular and didn't start that way.
That is the only difference between your shitty OC and every other shitty cyber-alicorn OC.

[Vergil]

Congrats on the job, Somber!

@Kipper BJ lives in a warhammer universe. Everyone is op to the point that it just balances everything out. (There is, of course, also the matter of her ridiculous power draw now, which is an obvious weakness.) I'm not stepping any further into that discussion than that.

As for myself,

Spoiler:

In other news, thanks to this chapter for getting the following stuck in my head:




That is all.

[Kippershy]

@Kipper BJ lives in a warhammer universe. Everyone is op to the point that it just balances everything out. (There is, of course, also the matter of her ridiculous power draw now, which is an obvious weakness.) I'm not stepping any further into that discussion than that.

That made me laugh, thank you.
Yeah, in Warhammer everyone is OP as all fuck, but that's the setting and if you're not OP as all fuck, you're Imperial Guardsman #154484231548562541548

[Downloaded Skill]

I knew this was coming the moment I read the chapter, so lets just get this out of the way now. First off let me say that yes, there are classic Mary Sue traits. Being an Alicorn and being powerful are probably two of the most common Mary Sue Traits in MLP fanfics. However simply having a few of these traits does not make you a Mary Sue. What makes you a Mary Sue is how those abilities and characteristics interact with the plot and other characters. If these augmentations did turn BJ into a Mary Sue BJ would have been just fine after the process and proceed to stomp Lighthooves / the Core with absolutely no problems whatsoever. What really happened was anything but that. A true Mary Sue exists to be served by the plot of the story, and as a result tend not to undergo character development, while regular characters serve purposes in the plot. 

Lets just look at all the set up that went into the process that shows that this wasn't an attempt to make BJ all powerful.

1. She spent a good page and a half talking with friendlies that this process is terrible and ultimately not worth it. The short term benefits are outweighed by long term health deterioration and it is very likely BJ will suffer for this once she gets out of the Core. She really only considered the new augments because she wouldn't have enough time otherwise. She was desperate and nothing more.

2. The process was so invasive that BJ could barely recognize herself after the process, causing her to go into a berserk rage. By getting these augments BJ violated one of her principles. Not becoming a living weapon. She cut off her built in energy weapons to get further away from becoming this in her eyes. If she was becoming an all powerful Mary sue, wouldn't she have kept them? 

3. Her new abilities are impractical since they draw too much power to be used consistently. BJ only flew for a few minutes before becoming so drained she almost froze to death on a rooftop. Yes she has new abilities that are extremely rare, but the drawbacks are made plain as day and legitimate. This isn't something like "I'm so beautiful its a curse" where the drawbacks aren't drawbacks. 

4. It doesn't shore up her other weaknesses. BJ is still a magically inept unicorn, she just now as more armor plating and wings. A single teleport, albeit under stress, and a few magic bullets and BJ's magic is out of the picture. She may be more durable, but her opponents now are also augmented with powerful weapons so BJ's extra defense is kind of irrelevant right now. Her enemies are just as powerful as her now, and thats just the enemies we know of. Whats in the core could be more powerful than her, and there is still the Legate with his enhanced troops.

5. The surgery was explicitly compared to her rape.

6. This was foreshadowed. I distinctly remember at one point that BJ joked that the goddess was going to turn BJ into a cyber alicorn. It just didn't happen the way she expected.

[OneMoreDaySK]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

[Somber]

Forgive me for being rude, Kippershy, but you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

If Blackjack had started this story as she is now, you would be correct.  Many OC's make the mistake of beginning the story as 'powerful' under the attempt of making their characters interesting.  Blackjack has undergone more than a million words of character growth.  Was Harry Potter a bad OC because at the end of the series he was fighting at war against Death Eaters and defeating the most powerful dark wizard of history?  Is Harry Dresden a bad OC because he (at my knowledge) is carrying around two holy swords, a magic skull chock full of arcane knowledge, and has ridden around on reanimated dinosaurs?  Or Aragorn for commanding armies before the black gate?  (In fact, you could argue that MANY Tolkiens characters in LOTR are "bad OC's" by your logic).

Blackjack is growing to face threats where, were she flesh and blood, she would liquify before she even reached her enemies, let alone confronted them.  She has opponents who are every bit as powerful, intelligent, and a good deal more ruthless than she is.  What's more, her augmentation isn't that big a deal because at this point there are few places LEFT for her to go.  Cyber wings in chapter 1 would have been a really big deal for the story.  Cyberwings at the end is so she can reach and do the last things she needs to.  The end of this story is massive in scope.  It's Lonesome Road launching nukes at one or both faction you don't like massive.  It's blowing up a mobile crawling base massive.

Blackjack's physical arc started at "Normal".  She weakened to "Broken."  Now she's strengthened to "Mighty".  There's only one place to go from here.  So either trust me to know what I'm doing, or stop reading.  I hate to lose any reader for any reason, but if it's cause you and others so much grief then stop.  Otherwise, you can disagree with the choices I've made, but please keep in mind the context of everything that Blackjack has been through.  If she'd stayed the same as she was at the start, she'd been a corpse.  And if you think it would be better if she had died, you're better off not reading any more.

[Icy Shake]

Chapter Sixty Two Part Two Overall Thoughts:

And now I'll contribute my bit to what I consider the tempest in a teapot for the chapter: Blackjack's upgrade to the Eclipse model, unspoilered because that ship has sailed (again, in a teapot), and didn't even have the decency to land on Blackjack's face.

First of all, I'll say that I didn't expect that this would never happen; it seemed like something that might occur, but wouldn't necessarily. So far it's been handled well.

Next, it's important to bear in mind that powerful characters are not synonymous with bad characters, especially when the context is such that their power does not allow them to solve all their problems without difficulty. To get an idea of why "alicorn," "powerful," and "Mary Sue" (if the term is meant to have any proscriptive meaning, rather than just a descriptor for any powerful character), I suggest a look at at Horizon's excellent—no matter what he repeatedly says to the contrary—My Harshwhinnial, or listen to the first seven parts (about eighteen minutes) here. Note how the entire world was warped around the OC, among other things transforming the other characters to mere props, all without any justification as proceeding from a logical series of events. Note how there is no meaningful conflict, and nothing requires thought or effort for the character, and certainly no personal costs. I hardly think that this could be further from the case for Blackjack, either in general or regarding this latest change in particular. This line of thought, to my mind, paints not only Blackjack as a Mary Sue, but also Princess Cadence (I think it was a mistake for her to be an alicorn, but for other reasons I won't go into now) and, now (and quite possibly for quite a while, given her obvious capabilities that repeatedly require idiocy on her part or, sometimes, others' to keep the plot from lacking any sense of tension (e.g. forgetting she can teleport or levitate massive objects)), Twilight. It's one that encompasses most superheroes, notably Batman and Superman; and while I can't say that they are never Sues, that's a feature of a long shared universe with a broad range of writers of differing abilities: to say that the Superman of All Star Superman or Superman for All Seasons or the Batman of Kingdom Come or Rock of Ages are bad characters is something I'd find hard to support, yet each is in their own way extremely—perhaps uniquely—capable.

Now, I'd argue that the plot does exist to serve Blackjack, but not in the sense Downloaded Skill was talking about. To me, it seems that the plot exists to allow the story of Blackjack's character, her understanding of herself, and her relationships with the people and world around her to unfold. Because I see this as a story about who she is and how she changes, I tend to think about the plot in terms of how it affects her; this is not a bug but a feature, and it is certainly not the case that the plot exists so that she can simply become a beautiful snowflake for her own sake.

I'd like to expand on what I said last night/this morning, and DS's first enumerated point. Although Blackjack's choice to undergo the increased augmentation is in conflict with her statements to Twister and the others there, it is consistent with her established characterization and indicative not of self-serving hypocrisy, but of nuance and generosity of spirit: it's simply another case in which she insists on taking the costs upon herself instead of placing them on others, and is actually better supported in this case than in certain others because the incremental cost to herself was less than it would have been to any other pony and she was in a better position to use the upgrades effectively, having already been used to cyberization. And yet even that was not enough on its own to prevent her breakdown.

Which brings me to the second point: I agree with Skill here, and would labor the point that yes, this is a cost that she is paying in order to achieve something that principally benefits others, not a benefit she's receiving and denying those around her; it's been one of the defining threads of the chapters since her resurrection that there is a real and powerful alienation to being a cyberpony, and it's taken even more than just friendship to carry her though it.

Nothing to add to the third point, other than that even before considering the limited flight time, she's not an impressive flyer, far less capable than a typical pegasus soldier in powered flight armor—and while her aerial skill could improve, there's no reason to believe that her top speed could, absent further modifications, and it's far from clear that an increase would be achievable even given them.

On the fourth, I'd just make a semantic quibble that the enhanced endurance is relevant, but only in the sense that as a result of it she's made up ground in the arms race.

On the fifth, I agree, but would go further. It was also implicitly similar to her rape in many ways, from the parallel motivation (now, though, less personal and more global than protecting Scotch Tape) to that it happens in an island of peace surrounded by a great battle, to similarities in how she couldn't control aspects of her body (then the physical responses to rape, here the inability to stop seeing the process), to the insistence that she take the process through to the end, to the uncontrollable rage and violence she exhibited as a result (then, with considerable time lag and directed at males getting close to her or touching her, now at the world, since her whole existence is reminding her of her pain and loss). I'm sure there's more, but frankly I think the explicit comparison was only a part of the ties to the Seahorse.

And there was more foreshadowing than that remark; personally I think that the key foreshadowing is related to her (presumed) role as the Maiden of Stars, successor to Nightmare Moon. I think it would have been better if the remark about it being the Eclipse model waited until after we saw how much the basics of her new form resembled Nightmare Moon, but that it was meant for Luna is entirely appropriate. Also, I wonder if some form of the Goddess still lives on in Blackjack's mind, given the popcorn.

Largely with you, Somber, but I think that there's one key factor, to me, that makes Aragorn dodge some of the issues that otherwise might have reflected poorly on his characterization, beyond the fact that he exists in the world he does, where he isn't that special: I think the story isn't about him, but primarily the hobbits. As such, the fact that he starts out as he does and doesn't face all that much difficulty, comparatively speaking, in achieving his arc of reuniting the Men of the western parts of Middle Earth in defiance of Sauron and reclaiming the throne of his forebears, isn't such an issue because it's the backdrop to the story of the far more modest heroes, whose triumphs are all the greater for their limited stature and actually embody the themes of the work.

[InLucidReverie]

For the record I think the two biggest weaknesses in PH are actually...

1: the fact that Blackjack doesn't feel pain from her cybernetics.

Think about it... the big thing about BJ turning into a monster to defeat monsters... a parody of Deus. Yet she is better off than he was and the whole effect is lost. She doesn't suffer from her upgrades.

2: The fact that her friends take the back seat far too much despite the fact they get more powerful also... They need to stay relevant to keep her in line. If she can fight the trials on her own without fault then she tiptoes into the Mary Sue zone, which she really shouldn't be doing.

/2 cents

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