Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Valikdu]

Wow, Pannic is so negative about everything on his blog. His blog is just a page of negativity followed by a paragraph of cynicism with more negativity.

Is the entire purpose of his liveblog to trash other people's work...?

I'd say that it's the style he's using. I've seen it used by multiple people who are reviewing things; it rubs others the wrong way sometimes, but I kind of like it more than the alternative (which is what Seraphem's doing).

[Harmony Ltd.]

As long as there's substance behind it, I like my criticism scathing. At least it gets people's attention.

[Valikdu]

It's just the first chapter. I think that he's not focusing on one story at a time for now, after finishing the original.

[SilentCarto]

How far is he in MN7? It has its share of weaknesses (the worst of which being its pacing, at times, due to the author sometimes making things take longer because he wants them to take longer, repeating himself multiple times to do so) but, so as long as you're not squeemish, it really is written too well to hate.

My main comment on MN7, not really a criticism per se, is that his chapters need chapters.  

[CD]

Well... yeah, but you can only really get angry at that if you're simultaniously the type to refuse to stop reading before you've finished the chapter, while also hating reading really long chapters.
I dislike reading a ton in one session, myself, but I can find plenty of fairly natural breakpoints throughout that I am more than happy to pause at and pick up again a day or two later.

 I follow completely, and yet I find MN7 to be one hell of a read, and not the positive hell. I was under the impression this story pleases the sadistic reader, not the masochistic.

[CD]

Well... yeah, but you can only really get angry at that if you're simultaniously the type to refuse to stop reading before you've finished the chapter, while also hating reading really long chapters.
I dislike reading a ton in one session, myself, but I can find plenty of fairly natural breakpoints throughout that I am more than happy to pause at and pick up again a day or two later.

 I follow completely, and yet I find MN7 to be one hell of a read, and not the positive hell. I was under the impression this story pleases the sadistic reader, not the masochistic.

Not sure I understand what you're saying, here, to be honest...

I mean that MN7 is a chore to read through. Project Horizons has some very long chapters, but they all pale in comparison to a single chapter from Murky Number 7, which seems to have an average of 70 pages. This makes it tiring to sit through, and almost destroys my enjoyment if I can't find a good point to stop reading. I do prefer some brevity in my stories.

On the other hand, I do find it enjoyable as a grimdark fic. I said sadistic because it really puts the protagonist through the wringer, as he is almost everything considered pathetic in the Equestrian Wasteland. And to see him repeatedly fail as he swings between despair and hope is an interesting cocktail.

[FeatherDust]

As long as there's substance behind it, I like my criticism scathing. At least it gets people's attention.

I don't because it makes it much too easy to dismiss the person's entire opinion as "well he's just a hater". A more moderated voice can still communicate all the things you thought were wrong without allowing the audience to say, "Oh, he hates everything about everything, don't listen to what he's saying."

[Icy Shake]

I thought that the liveblog was a really fun read. I don't agree with everything, of course, but he raised some good points and even on some of his more debatable claims I could understand where he was coming from, even if I don't think it was all necessarily fair. But Velvet is annoying (and the story is made so she never really can be right), Littlepip is not an especially deep character, and the Wasteland "did" pretty much everything it ever "did to her" in just a couple of days, and honestly those probably amounted to the bulk of his gripes. And it was nice that in the end he acknowledged some of the good things, like the world and the descriptions. I was a little sad he didn't want to do Project Horizons, but perhaps it's for the best.

As for Murky Number Seven, all this talk about it (and the fact that only seven chapters have been published since I stopped reading last September) has made me consider starting to follow it again. As for the chapter length thing, I agree that the chapters should be shorter—because I've always felt that it seems fairly padded-out (which it doesn't need: it has plenty going on, and it's not like he needs to hit 34k words per chapter like movies need to hit 80 minutes)—though identifying stopping points within chapters and splitting them wouldn't hurt, either.

Anyway, I also read chapter seventeen today, and man is the end of that wearying (in a good way). Tying together the pain of others' fear and rejection with her start in the stable, and making it the cost of seeing the world as more like it really is was just hit me kind of hard, and it being the followup to the Roses/Thorn rescue didn't help. On the lighter side to that ending, Blackjack's parting shot to Caprice, while fitting with the tone of its surroundings, was just brutal.

I wasn't a huge fan of Caprice calling prostitution a "trap," but I might have been missing something there, or have misjudged her character. Also, eggs are pretty large compared to shot glasses, so "The Price" has ruined by ability to believe in the reality of this story for ever and ever.

Running:

Chapter 17 Editing:

(Mostly) Other Editing:

[ARoundCorner]

Yea, when he referred to Velvet Remedy as Prissy Whine and Calamity as Hat..erm...something every time he talked about them,  I stopped reading.

Maybe using the nicknames occasionally to emphasize a point would have been better, because as of now he really does come across as a "hater".

Although some of his views may have validity, his delivery does attract the tag of "hater".

[Icy Shake]

"Hat Accent." And while I understand why you feel that way, he came across as a hater . . . because he is a hater. That's his schtick, and it's why, for his target audience, it's entertaining. And it's fine that plenty of people don't go in for that genre, just like any other. But on that note, one thing that did bother me a bit about his delivery was that it seemed like he never said why he found so many of the action scenes boring, or why he liked the ones that he did find interesting.

[O. Hinds]

Anyway, I also read chapter seventeen today, and man is the end of that wearying (in a good way). Tying together the pain of others' fear and rejection with her start in the stable, and making it the cost of seeing the world as more like it really is was just hit me kind of hard, and it being the followup to the Roses/Thorn rescue didn't help. On the lighter side to that ending, Blackjack's parting shot to Caprice, while fitting with the tone of its surroundings, was just brutal.

I wasn't a huge fan of Caprice calling prostitution a "trap," but I might have been missing something there, or have misjudged her character. Also, eggs are pretty large compared to shot glasses, so "The Price" has ruined by ability to believe in the reality of this story for ever and ever.

Running:

Chapter 17 Editing:

(Mostly) Other Editing:

Ah, thank you very much, as usual.

I don't think that stars actually reflect colors.

You've misread, sorry; the simile is comparing the reflections, not the reflecting, to stars.

[Icy Shake]

Huh. I guess that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.

[WavemasterRyx]

My apologies for interrupting anything, but I finally finished this, and I'm sure some people have been waiting.

Spoiler:

http://wavemasterryx.tumblr.com/post/56756289350

[FeatherDust]

http://wavemasterryx.tumblr.com/post/56756289350

Eeeee!

It's so tiny, though! It's tiny and I can't enlarge it!

[WavemasterRyx]

Eeeee!

It's so tiny, though!  It's tiny and I can't enlarge it!

Ah, sorry about that... Unfortunately I can't really help what size my drawings turn out, some are larger, some just end up being smaller. And if I try to resize one that ended up being small, most of the time I just can't get it to turn out right at the larger size, as was the case with this one.

That... is a lot of sugar.

I like to call it "pink to death".

[O. Hinds]

My apologies for interrupting anything, but I finally finished this, and I'm sure some people have been waiting.

Spoiler:

http://wavemasterryx.tumblr.com/post/56756289350

Very cute, as usual. :)

[WavemasterRyx]

Very cute, as usual.  :)

Thank you, Hinds, I'm happy that you like it.

[RoboRed]

My apologies for interrupting anything, but I finally finished this, and I'm sure some people have been waiting.

Spoiler:

http://wavemasterryx.tumblr.com/post/56756289350

Cakehat. 

[SilentCarto]

My apologies for interrupting anything, but I finally finished this, and I'm sure some people have been waiting.

Spoiler:

http://wavemasterryx.tumblr.com/post/56756289350

Teehee! Is that the bite, right over her ear?

[Somber]

She's adorable, Ryx!  Thank you!

[WavemasterRyx]

Cakehat. 

Heh, cakehat is always a good hat.

Teehee! Is that the bite, right over her ear?

Yes it is. It was just too cute of a detail to leave out, even at that size.

She's adorable, Ryx!  Thank you!

I'm very happy that you like it, sir. Thank you, too.

[Technowolf]

So I was doing a reread, and came across some more evidence that might support my theory of Rampage being at least Twist's daughter, either through surrogacy, adoption, or as a result of Doof's rape.

She [Rampage] started to pace.  “I don’t know if my childhood was growing up as a filly in Ponyville with a crush on Applebloom, living as a zebra tribal near Shattered Hoof Ridge, being beaten by my mother in a filthy apartment in Manehattan, or growing up on a military base with a mare who always had better things to do than be my mother!

The bolded part doesn't seem to fit with any of the personalities in Rampage.  Twist is probably the first part, Shujaa could easily be the second, while the third is either Razorwire or the Angel.  As far as I know, most of the other souls were from wealthy aristoponies who bought the Phoenix Core off the black market after Officer Softheart (#3) killed herself/was killed be the Angel.  I don't think any of them were young enough to have been born or lived on a military base; three of the unknown souls even mistake Boo for their daughters, which, given Boo's size, would make the souls at least middle age.

“Fine.  Everything’s fine.”  She glanced back over her shoulder and then at the zebra.  “She doesn’t know.  I hate telling her goodbye.  I feel like, if I do, I won’t be coming back.”
“You should tell her next time,” Shujaa said as they parted in their embrace, and the Proditor zebra looked up in time to catch a curtain in Twist’s room swaying back and forth.

This confirms that someone was living with Twist at the base, and later comments indicate that this person is young enough to need taking care of should Twist die.

So yeah, if I had money, I'd be willing to bet some on this theory.

[Downloaded Skill]

@Ryx: You're going to give me a heart attack one day with your adorable art. I'll die happy.

@Techno: Would that mean Rampage is technically her own mother?

[Technowolf]

@Techno: Would that mean Rampage is technically her own mother?

 More like Twist is the ultimate helicopter parent.  You think its bad that your mom calls you every day and tries to set up dates for you?  Imagine if she shared your body and knew everything(and everyone) you did.

[Downloaded Skill]

Twist was also a military hand to hand specialist IIRC. She would probably criticize Rampage's style.

 "Rampage! What are you doing out there?"

"What is it Mom? We killed those guys so I don't see what the problem is."

"Yes but you got shot six times and got your right leg severed! When I was in the army they taught me to fight with finesse and with regard for my own safety! You're just using brute force because you're invincible!"

"So, it works doesn't it?"

"Sweep the leg next time. It'll do wonders."

"But we're-"

"SWEEP THE LEG OR YOU'RE GROUNDED MISSY!"

"Yes Mom...."

[Technowolf]

@skill

You're not thinking big enough.  There are 11 (mostly) sane ponies trapped inside Rampage.  There's a good chance that at least one, if not more, of the ponies she's time-sharing a body with had some experience with whatever she's doing at any time.

At ANY time.

"You know, you really should eat more fiber.  I mean, look how much effort you're having to put in to do this simple task.  Really, you should take better care of yourself."

"I'm -erf- just -hrk- fine!"

[RoboRed]

...she must be made into filly rampage.:

[SilentCarto]

She [Rampage] started to pace.  “I don’t know if my childhood was growing up as a filly in Ponyville with a crush on Applebloom, living as a zebra tribal near Shattered Hoof Ridge, being beaten by my mother in a filthy apartment in Manehattan, or growing up on a military base with a mare who always had better things to do than be my mother!

The bolded part doesn't seem to fit with any of the personalities in Rampage.  Twist is probably the first part, Shujaa could easily be the second, while the third is either Razorwire or the Angel.

As far as I know, most of the other souls were from wealthy aristoponies who bought the Phoenix Core off the black market after Officer Softheart (#3) killed herself/was killed be the Angel.  I don't think any of them were young enough to have been born or lived on a military base; three of the unknown souls even mistake Boo for their daughters, which, given Boo's size, would make the souls at least middle age.

I had assumed the abused Manehattanite was Candy, and the military brat was Razorwire. But the scene in front of Twist's house is definitely telling.

Before, I had taken Rampage's stripes as some artifact of Shujaa's presence, like they were some kind of indelible mark or curse on the soul. I had assumed that the curly red hair was an unambiguous sign that Rampage's body is Twist. But these details are starting to form a different picture now.

What happens if you provide a mixed sample to the cloning tree? Does it pick one cell and clone that, rejecting all other material? Or does it mingle the genetic codes and produce, essentially, a daughter? Or perhaps it replicates both codes to create a chimera, in the medical sense of the word. Given that this is "Project Chimera", I suspect the latter. A fully-grown chimera with no soul and no mind. Except... sometimes you get a Boo. It feels odd to refer to a child as a "pet", even in jest. But it doesn't feel odd to refer to Boo as a pet, does it? And "feral" might not be a bad description, either. (Boo, just what the heck are you?)

So that's my working theory, now. Rampage is Peppermint, and Peppermint is a chimera of Twist and Shujaa with Boo's mentality. Maybe the Phoenix Talisman works so efficiently now because there's no "native" soul getting in the way. That also might explain Rampage's willingness to go along with the ghouls that found her and whoever they sold her to, until her personality developed far enough to choose independence.

So how did Peppermint get the Phoenix Talisman? Well. It requires me to rethink several assumptions I had made based on the photos Twist had in the tank where she died and Shujaa's last memory.

One of her in the hospital, looking hurt, but Vanity, Echo, and Applesnack are with her.  Three out of eight friends; her eyes show far more pain than joy.

I had assumed that Twist was in the hospital to recover from her near-death on the battlefield, either physically or psychologically.

She wasn’t smiling in the last picture.  Oh, her lips were curled at the edges, but there was no mirth in her eyes as she stood alone on a tank, sergeant stripes on her uniform.  She had the eyes of a ghoul: flat and lifeless and eager to die.

I had assumed that her hollow-eyed look was due to psychological damage.

Then the pheonix talisman came into view along with a torrent of blood.  The knife tumbled from her hooves as she screamed and tore it from her own flesh.  The pain vanished, replaced by a terrible numbness.  Shujaa trembled as she cradled the little pink stone, moving it closer to the limp earth pony.  With her last ounce of strength, she shoved it into the hole.  Then she collapsed on her side in the mud.

I had assumed that removing the Phoenix Talisman, and your soul, would kill you.

But what if it didn't? We all saw what happened when Snips's spell separated BJ's soul from her body, but perhaps the Phoenix Talisman doesn't work like that. Maybe it just snips off enough of an anchor to keep the soul in place while the body is rebuilt. Shujaa didn't collapse like a string-cut puppet the instant she removed the talisman. Her self-inflicted wound was obviously enough to kill her without its healing, so perhaps that was the cause of death rather than the loss of the talisman. Perhaps removing the talisman carefully -- say, having surgery to remove some "shrapnel" -- would leave the body alive and well, with muted emotions and a dead-eyed stare.

On the other hoof, Shujaa's body was recovered uninjured (Ch. 42), as if it hadn't quite died when Twist woke up and administered some powerful healing potions, but like Rumble (Ch. 43), there was nobody home. Perhaps the talisman doesn't entirely slurp up its host's soul until it's placed in the next host. Shujaa... faded... as soon as it began healing Twist, after all.

Thoughts?

...she must be made into filly rampage.:

I endorse this project!

[Guest]

...she must be made into filly rampage.:

Why is she yellow?

I think it's the lighting or a color issue with the toy - Twist is supposed to be sort of cream colored.

[ARoundCorner]

That looks like cream to me .____.

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