Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[O. Hinds]

Reposting here so that Somber will see it.

I've found something really interesting.

This is a liveblog on TVTropes which is basically a Let's Read for the original FoE. The author is a (very) caustic critic, but raises a lot of valid points.

...good. It isn't  that good, particularly on its own.
What it really sells is a world; the rest is average to sub-par.

I definitely agree with that. Kkat (there are a lot of "Kat"s around) did manage to join the worlds of Fallout and MLP much better than anyone imagined was possible, but the story itself isn't as good. Its the recursive fanfiction that really makes Fo:E worth the read; as good as PH, MN7, and All that Remains are, they all need knowledge of the war and the wasteland. PH could probably stand on its own, but a lot of the details of the ministries (and the Stable Dweller jokes) would have to be inferred, and it helps to know Filly and Red Eye's roles in Equestria when following Murky. All that Remains is probably the most easily detachable, but even so, it's written to explore the other side and liking the zebras is much more meaningful when we know the war. "The best thing about Fo:E is that it allows you to read these other, completely amazing stories" isn't much praise (and is perhaps not giving it quite enough credit), but as much as I enjoyed the original (and the second reading I'm giving it), that's pretty much how I feel.

That's part of the reason I don't quite get people complaining about how Somber changes the backstory. It might have been one of the strongest parts of Fo:E, but there's still room for improvement. What PH tells us about the war turns it from a terrible (but somewhat abstract) event to a tragedy. Kkat gave us war; Somber makes us part of it. Ponies aren't trying their best and failing, they're trying their best at something ultimately worthless or unproductive. I remember tearing up a couple times in Fo:E at a character's death (Rarity, Zecora) or at a particularly well-described ruin (Ponyville, I think), to name a few, but I never had the same sense of crushing inevitability that PH gave me a couple times (most notably during the Littlehorn dream). Besides, how is tweaking a few details of the war era so much worse than, for example, saying that Fluttershy was banging Cloud Kicker during flight camp?

Maybe not the best time to say it, but it's late and we're already on the subject of annoying complaints about PH, so what the heck. Why do people insist on saying it's too long, or too slow, or not focused enough on the main storyline? It's not a novel, and I'd be surprised if it was ever intended to be. It's a serial, and you can't try to force it into a novel. Sure you can still make the same complaints, but they don't have the same weight. A serial is supposed to be long, and PH is just able to fill a large number of issues without (I guess arguably) artificially postponing the plot. Likewise, it's not supposed to be telling the story of EC-1101 to Project horizons from Point A to Point D, taking into account a few intermediate stages to slightly hide the linearity, plus three or four sidequests. It's a character piece that explores Blackjack and the wasteland, using EC-1101 to keep from feeling completely directionless but never pulling it before the main focus. If nothing else, it should be compared to something with a similar aim, rather than the standard modern fantasy template.

So that's a unnecessary rant over. Sorry.  The fact that I wrote the entire thing probably means I should have been asleep a while ago. Good night/morning/whenever!

[Somber]

Wow.  Thanks for sharing that.  Now I wonder what Pannic would make of PH... and I'm scared to ask.

[Frost]

Pannic?

 Author of that Liveblog

[WovenTales]

Yeah, we have, but there's a lot of people in other places that don't get that, and the rant was directed at them rather than anyone here. It just seems that they are sometimes able to recognize that PH isn't following the standard story, but rather than (at least trying to) like it for what it is, they condemn it for being original. Sorry, just find that really annoying. Plus I get rather wordy when I'm tired.

[Guest]

Yeah, we have, but there's a lot of people in other places that don't get that, and the rant was directed at them rather than anyone here. It just seems that they are sometimes able to recognize that PH isn't following the standard story, but rather than (at least trying to) like it for what it is, they condemn it for being original. Sorry, just find that really annoying. Plus I get rather wordy when I'm tired.

Embrace your verbosity... give in to the loquacious side!

[ARoundCorner]

I, for one, really enjoy BJ and co.'s side adventures.

[Luminous Lead]

Saw Batman... thought of Project Horizens...

The Black Lance Rises

 Must've been really happy to see her.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Wow.  Thanks for sharing that.  Now I wonder what Pannic would make of PH... and I'm scared to ask.

The question I think is : how would you take negative criticism if the arguments were to be thought out and not superficial ?

[Somber]

I love criticism.  Criticism is how writers grow.  The only one criticism I don't need is that the story is too long.  Believe me, that one I know.

[Harmony Ltd.]

I suppose so, yes. :D

Well then, maybe you could ask him to have an eye on your fic once he's done with FoE ? It would be interesting to have a perspective from outside the FoE "fandom".

[Frost]

He's done with FoE now. The newest chapters are him reading other fics.

[Frost]

He seems to have a few regular commentators, at least. From what I can tell, he seems quite perceptive. I've just about read the whole liveblog

[Valikdu]

He's actually reading Pink Eyes and Murky N7 in some of the newer entries. He likes them so far.

[Valikdu]

Correction: he didn't find anything awful about the characters or narrative over the first two chapters. He hadn't read past that yet.

[Caoimhe]

Pink Eyes is the real memey one right?

One of my criticisms of PH is that it's too short. I want it to go on forever and ever amen.

[Valikdu]

Actually, here's everything that he wrote about Pink Eyes:

Some text:

*shrug*
Well, I don't see anything disqualifying.

[Derpmind]

I forgot that the first few chapters of Pink Eyes were fun. Stupid, but fun. (Is that joke still funny?)

I think I stopped reading around when Puppysmiles got semi-possessed by the spirit of Nightmare Moon.

[Evilgidgit]

I read Pink Eyes from beginning to end and I thought it was really fun and unique to see the world of Fallout Equestria from the eyes of a whatever-age-Puppysmiles-is-year-old.

[Moodyman90]

I admit that Pink Eye isn't the strongest story in the Fallout Universe, but it's good for what it is. I can't remember where I heard it but some people see Pink Eye like a legend of events that did happen but some details have gotten distorted over time.

[Icy Shake]

Pink Eyes is the real memey one right?

One of my criticisms of PH is that it's too short. I want it to go on forever and ever amen.

Glory be to the Somber, and to the Hoof, and to the Star Maiden, as it was in '11, is now, and ever shall be, Project without end. Amen.

On a more serious note, Pink Eyes was often pretty fun, and even had some (from what I remember) pretty decent side characters. The major problem I had with it, though, was that to date it still has (IMO, natch) the absolute worst version of the Nightmare I've seen in fanfic.

[SilentCarto]

P-21: Hey, Blackjack, I was just-- Uh... I'm sorry, are you...?
BJ: Pissing on my high-pressure ammo? Yeah.
P-21: Any particular reason why?
BJ: *big grin* I call it "9mm +P Plus Pee"!

Editing:

[FeatherDust]

I forgot that the first few chapters of Pink Eyes were fun. Stupid, but fun. (Is that joke still funny?)

I think I stopped reading around when Puppysmiles got semi-possessed by the spirit of Nightmare Moon.

Ugh.  Did that happen?

I wallbanger'd it at the fight at the laughing gas farm when she destroyed a killer robot by headbutting it until it died.

Understand: I don't actually have a problem with a character headbutting a killer robot to death (though it strikes me as a fairly stupid concept), but this is a character who is supposed to be cute and innocent, and she just immediately snaps into a killer death machine for no apparent reason.

It makes it simply impossible to accept when she's supposedly back to being blithely innocent about violence on the next page.

[O. Hinds]

Editing:

Sorry, but why? As far as I can tell, those two are equivalent in meaning and equally valid.

[SilentCarto]

He likes Pink Eyes?

Yeah, no, I don't think I will be reading his blog...

I giggled because it's true...

I read Pink Eyes from beginning to end and I thought it was really fun and unique to see the world of Fallout Equestria from the eyes of a whatever-age-Puppysmiles-is-year-old.

The trouble is, she doesn't act like an anything-year-old. Children aren't stupid; they're ignorant. If you want to approximate a child's behavior, imagine what a monkey would do, and you're 90% of the way there. Puppysmiles acts like almost the complete inverse of that -- rather than fearing the unknown and being traumatized by the loss of everything she's considered familiar and permanent, or even getting caught up in the excitement of exploring a brand-new world without rules or authority figures, she just trots along, blithely cheerful about all the horror and obvious danger around her, forcing the world to fit into her immutable worldview.

[SilentCarto]

Sorry, but why?  As far as I can tell, those two are equivalent in meaning and equally valid.

http://faculty.washington.edu/marynell/grammar/AdverbPl.html
Adverbs of certaintly, such as "clearly", go after state of being verbs and before other verbs. "Had been" becomes "had clearly been". (In this case, it doesn't go between "been" and "engineered" because it hasn't been "engineered" in a "clear" way, it is "clear" that it has "been engineered".)

[Valikdu]

He likes Pink Eyes?

Yeah, no, I don't think I will be reading his blog...

I giggled because it's true...

I shouldn't have written that...
He doesn't *like Pink Eyes in its entirety*, he'd just haven't found any notable serious faults yet. I've put full quotes from the blog posts on PE into a post above.
Again, he'd just read the two first chapters and has apparently not seen any other analyses previously. Can't come to a reasonable conclusion about the entire thing based on just this.

His full examination of the original is, in my view, really valuable.

[Derpmind]

I noticed a little mistake when I was looking back at the description of Folly in Ch. 5.

It loaded from a breech like a break action shotgun, but clearly it’d been engineered for precision.

Should be "but it had clearly been".

I think the part in question is close enough to mental dialogue to be a valid use.

[Icy Shake]

Sorry, but why?  As far as I can tell, those two are equivalent in meaning and equally valid.

http://faculty.washington.edu/marynell/grammar/AdverbPl.html
Adverbs of certaintly, such as "clearly", go after state of being verbs and before other verbs. "Had been" becomes "had clearly been". (In this case, it doesn't go between "been" and "engineered" because it hasn't been "engineered" in a "clear" way, it is "clear" that it has "been engineered".)

This seems like a case where Blackjack may be narrating in a more colloquial voice, more like speech than writing (or, what Derpmind said). However, even that is ignoring that, even adjectives of certainty other than "surely," "maybe," and "perhaps" can begin sentences, if often with a comma, i.e. "Undoubtedly, this is a grammatical sentence—or one that at least follows a structure common in speech." In context, the following would surely work as a standalone sentence: Clearly, it'd been engineered for precision.

[ARoundCorner]

Wow, Pannic is so negative about everything on his blog. His blog is just a page of negativity followed by a paragraph of cynicism with more negativity.

Is the entire purpose of his liveblog to trash other people's work...?

Here's a quote from page 17 of his blog.


"After a little thought, I might not be continuing The Ballad of Twilight Sparkle on this liveblog. It seems the story might not really suck, and after viewing so much fucking awful Sonic crossover shipping art (why does this exist?) Twixie seems rather benign in comparison."


So Pannic is basically saying that he won't continue his reading of a Fanfic because it "might not really suck"?

Then again... the title of his liveblog is "Pannic Reads Stuff He Hates," but if he really hated it that much... how in god's name did he read all 45 chapters of FoE. I really liked it, but it still took me a long time to get through it all. (I found FoE after it was completed)


Either he really does like it... or he really likes putting people down... or he just has balls of steel.

[thatguyvex]

Guess I'm the odd man out, because I treat fanfiction like I treat food.

And I am not a skinny man.

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