Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Maripony / Hellhounds ... it's not a sanctuary, a reserve : it's their home. That and most of them are still uncomfortable around ponies, and most ponies are still uncomfortable around hellhounds.

Concerning the IMP : maybe the gardens cleared it, maybe not.... but there may still remain secondary traces of the potion itself which may help determine how it was made, or how it could be reproduced, things like that. They don't have much hope of being able to reproduce the formula - the main ingredient was flux / taint, and the Gardens cleaned most of it ; but it still the kind of information which may prove valuable in the long run. It's not as if they expand much resources on that, it's more of a token effort, really.
The point that interest them the most, beyond the IMP research, is the possibility of finding the Goddess remains, or part of it, in order to study them. Which kind of piss off the Alicorns...


As for Glyphmark, I know it isn't Zebratown. I just couldn't remember the name. Thanks for refeshing my memory, by the way.

[Harmony Ltd.]

As for radiations... My headcanon is that the Gardens weren't that thorough, they mostly contented themselves with cleaning the soil, the buildings, the rivers... Basically, focusing more on making the land livable than on cleaning ALL the radiation :

If it wanted to do that, all it would have needed would have been the raw power of the Elements of Harmony. In my mind the Crusader Maneframe was there to give "intelligence" to the spell.

[Ironmonger]

Perhaps this stuff should be archived in a file or something in case someone wants to come back and read it without digging through the thread. It's just a thought, this discussion is interesting, but somewhat difficult to keep up with.

[Harmony Ltd.]

That's a thought.

Wanna do it ?

[Ironmonger]

I ain't got a computer at the moment. XD

[O. Hinds]

@Harmony Ltd.:
"Maripony / Hellhounds ... it's not a sanctuary, a reserve : it's their home. That and most of them are still uncomfortable around ponies, and most ponies are still uncomfortable around hellhounds."
No, I'm talking about the Hellhound Sanctuary in Ponyville.

“Did you see Ponyville?” she asked suddenly.

“Ayep,” Calamity answered as he flew, pulling the chariot behind him.  “They seem t’ be doin’ alright.  Fer hellhounds.  Not even raiders are stupid enough t’ wander near Ponyville.”

She felt the presence of the hellhound as he came up behind her.  The old cyberhound crouched down next to her, his cyberleg giving a metallic whine.  At last, the aging albino spoke, “You ready fer this?”

Fluttershy nodded.  

She would not allow the new age of Equestria to be born out of genocide.  The hellhounds were on the precipice of extinction, and it was (largely) the fault of ponies.

Wanted or not, warranted or not, she had been once again put in a position where her words carried weight.  And as much as she hated being looked to as a leader, she wasn’t going to shy away.  Not after everything.  This is something she must do.  She must.

She must.

The Applejack’s Rangers weren’t going to be happy about it, but she would convince them.  The Hellhound Sanctuary was the right thing to do.

The elderly albino hellhound got back up as she turned around, and followed her as she marched toward the council hall.

Actually, that makes their condition sound even worse than I remembered. (At this point, in my headcanon, the NCR and such weren't yet aware of the resettlement efforts that the Alliance was providing.)

"Concerning the IMP : maybe the gardens cleared it, maybe not.... but there may still remain secondary traces of the potion itself which may help determine how it was made, or how it could be reproduced, things like that. They don't have much hope of being able to reproduce the formula - the main ingredient was flux / taint, and the Gardens cleaned most of it ; but it still the kind of information which may prove valuable in the long run. It's not as if they expand much resources on that, it's more of a token effort, really.
The point that interest them the most, beyond the IMP research, is the possibility of finding the Goddess remains, or part of it, in order to study them. Which kind of piss off the Alicorns..."
Ah, that makes some sense. I'm not sure what exactly they hope to find, given that the facility has been twice-balefired, but I suppose that there might still be something in the rubble.

"As for Glyphmark, I know it isn't Zebratown. I just couldn't remember the name. Thanks for refeshing my memory, by the way."
You're welcome. :)

"As for radiations... My headcanon is that the Gardens weren't that thorough, they mostly contented themselves with cleaning the soil, the buildings, the rivers... Basically, focusing more on making the land livable than on cleaning ALL the radiation :

If it wanted to do that, all it would have needed would have been the raw power of the Elements of Harmony. In my mind the Crusader Maneframe was there to give "intelligence" to the spell."
A good point, I think.

Perhaps this stuff should be archived in a file or something in case someone wants to come back and read it without digging through the thread. It's just a thought, this discussion is interesting, but somewhat difficult to keep up with.

A good idea, probably. I've been keeping some archives, but I've already lost other things in the mists of the threads.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Well, as I said, at this point my policy toward the "10 years after" part of FoE is "ignore if convenient". For example, here... Why would the Hellhounds be on the precipice of extinction ?

Maripony has been balefired, but then again it had already been in the past, and I was under the impression that the Hellhounds were immune to the adverse effects of radiation. So that's one thing.

It's more than probable that a lot of hounds died in the detonation, but only a portion of them.

I mean, shit, the Hellhounds are some of the toughest, nastiest motherfuckers in the Wasteland. Kkat made that point abundantly clears with all the descriptions she made of them. And then she says that an underground detonation which at worst caused most of the tunnels in a 10 km radius to collapse, was enough to lead them "to the precipice of extinction" ? The same Hellhounds which can dig as fast than ponies can walk ?

Let's get serious for a second. Yeah, a lot of them probably died, and they must be among those in the Wasteland with a grudge toward Littlepip, but they wouldn't be in THAT bad a situation.


ESPECIALLY if the Followers, led by Velvet Remedy, pressured the NCR to make amend to the hounds by letting them have their land, and by trading with them for the gems. With all the bits that trade would have generated for them, they would have had no difficulty importing all the food and medicines they would need.


If anything, the only serious reason I could see the Hellhounds on the decline would have been if the Enclave generalized the use of the mind control devices on them during the war, leading to a vast number of them dying in the fights.

[O. Hinds]

Well, as I said, at this point my policy toward the "10 years after" part of FoE is "ignore if convenient". For example, here... Why would the Hellhounds be on the precipice of extinction ?

Maripony has been balefired, but then again it had already been in the past, and I was under the impression that the Hellhounds were immune to the adverse effects of radiation. So that's one thing.

It's more than probable that a lot of hounds died in the detonation, but only a portion of them.

I mean, shit, the Hellhounds are some of the toughest, nastiest motherfuckers in the Wasteland. Kkat made that point abundantly clears with all the descriptions she made of them. And then she says that an underground detonation which at worst caused most of the tunnels in a 10 km radius to collapse, was enough to lead them "to the precipice of extinction" ? The same Hellhounds which can dig as fast than ponies can walk ?

Let's get serious for a second. Yeah, a lot of them probably died, and they must be among those in the Wasteland with a grudge toward Littlepip, but they wouldn't be in THAT bad a situation.


ESPECIALLY if the Followers, led by Velvet Remedy, pressured the NCR to make amend to the hounds by letting them have their land, and by trading with them for the gems. With all the bits that trade would have generated for them, they would have had no difficulty importing all the food and medicines they would need.


If anything, the only serious reason I could see the Hellhounds on the decline would have been if the Enclave generalized the use of the mind control devices on them during the war, leading to a vast number of them dying in the fights.

Ah, so you explain it away by making a headcanon discontinuity of it. :)

Interesting ideas. The "can dig as fast as ponies can walk" thing would only have saved those just trapped by the blast, though, not those even indirectly hit by it. Also, wasn't the underground of Maripony pretty much the center of Hellhound civilization? Even if a lot of the people physically survive, having the center of your government and culture blown up isn't exactly likely to increase your survival chances.

Also, it occurs to me, that last point... They would need as many soldiers as possible, particularly for strikes against hardened ground targets.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Maripony's Underground : I was under the impression that they were living around (underground) the military base and not under it proper.


Also, I wasn't under the impression that the Hounds had a proper "government" to speak of. Not anything that could severely cripple their ability to survive it it was destroyed at least : in my mind their primary social unit is the "pack" anyway (groups of a few dozens individual, less than a hundred), their society as a whole being pretty decentralized.

I was seeing Maripony more as the center of their Civilization, in the sense that it's where they came from and the place they used to meet & exchange with each others, most of them living farther away in the land surrounding Maripony's Military Base.



Note that I have read FoE only once, and it was a year ago.

[Harmony Ltd.]

strikes against hardened ground targets.

The Enclave has Pegasi. Saying that is a tautology.

Pegasi who can carry relatively heavy loads.

Dive / Carpet bombing ?


Though I recognize they would try to use Hellhounds during the war - after all, they developed the technology to control them just for that kind of situations.

The thing is, IIRC, we've already seen in FoE people jam the mind-control devices, allowing the Hounds to free themselves and turn their claws back against the Enclave.

So I doubt that weapon would have remained effective for very long.

[Kippershy]

Off topic like all fuck... but...
By the gods.

Once you go to SSD's... you'll never want to go back to HDD's as a primary storage. I understand that unless you're well off you don't want to store everything on a series of SSD's, but fuck me... the speed difference is immense.

My computer boots within five seconds, no joke. Literally five seconds.
GIMP, which happens to be notoriously slow loading? Two seconds after initial start-up of seven seconds.
Steam? Three.
Firefox? Less than one.
Everything just loads up SO DAMN FAST. It's fucking lovely.

[RoboRed]

This is why I can't wait to get an SSD for my laptop.

[O. Hinds]

strikes against hardened ground targets.

The Enclave has Pegasi. Saying that is a tautology.

Pegasi who can carry relatively heavy loads.

Dive / Carpet bombing ?

I'm afraid that I must disagree. The Enclave has a great deal of air power, yes, but we've not seen any significant subsurface-targeted weapons. Now, that doesn't mean that they don't exist, but remember that they chose to use hellhounds against the apotheosis chamber under the Cathedral. GPE soldiers also lack experience in ground combat, and their low numbers ought to amplify an already casualty-averse nature (at least, I expect that they'd already be casualty-averse). Result: the GPE is bad at attacking any surface structures that it can't just blow to bits from the air, is even worse against subsurface installations, and would rather not commit its people to either. Hellhounds are expendable, quite formidable on the surface, and devastating in subsurface combat. Using both allows the GPE to bring its air superiority to bear in 3D pincers, and the GPE apart from everything else has a vested interest in the NCR not having hellhounds (NCR convoy surprised? Bunker dug before you can sneeze!).

Though I recognize they would try to use Hellhounds during the war - after all, they developed the technology to control them just for that kind of situations.

The thing is, IIRC, we've already seen in FoE people jam the mind-control devices, allowing the Hounds to free themselves and turn their claws back against the Enclave.

So I doubt that weapon would have remained effective for very long.

See, it seems to me that the mind control is probably the difficult part. The GPE might actually already have better com tech and just not deployed it because they didn't think that they'd need it. Even apart from that, it seems relatively simple to fit auxiliary units (containing basic commands such as "return to base", "hold position", "kill everything in sight that isn't a helmeted hellhound for as long as there's no signal", etc.) to the helmets that take over if the signal is lost.


Also, interestingly, I've realized that, were I to have hellhounds prosper in my headcanon as they have in yours, it would be a "no good deed goes unpunished" scenario for the NCR. Helping the hellhounds rebuild means no hellhound exodus and resettlement means no Hell means no Canine Petroleum means that NEROC will keep its monopoly for the foreseeable future.

[O. Hinds]

This is why I can't wait to get an SSD for my laptop.

...And I've just discovered that it looks like they now are making 13 inch MacBook Pros with large SSDs... which I come nowhere near being able to afford. Ah well. I'd have to deal with a 10.7.x OS, anyway, and my current computer is quite adequate for my needs.

[Harmony Ltd.]

You know what I could see happening sooner or later ?

The NCR building solar boilers near Appleloosa or in some other well exposed to solar radiations region, and use the energy it produce to fuel a local industry.

After all, with the help of Littlepip, they can decide to have the sun shine all year round in a given region.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Example :

http://papundits.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/vista_aerea.jpg

built with polished plates of metal pointing toward a boiler enchanted to not melt under the intense heat it's subjected to.

[Harmony Ltd.]

I agree that the Enclave will try to use the Hellhounds. All I'm saying is, I doubt even that would be enough to push them near extinction.


Concerning the "no good deed goes unpunished", that had crossed my mind, too. Though in my own headcanon, if the NCR were to trade for anything, it would be for machine tools, industrial equipment, refined ores and some technical expertise : given how productive I'm envisioning their agriculture to be (3 to 4 harvests per year...), I could easily see them extensively using biofuels.

Not that it would goes against the Alliance's interests : the NCR is still relying on them for most of their industrial infrastructure, just in a different way.

[O. Hinds]

You know what I could see happening sooner or later ?

The NCR building solar boilers near Appleloosa or in some other well exposed to solar radiations region, and use the energy it produce to fuel a local industry.

After all, with the help of Littlepip, they can decide to have the sun shine all year round in a given region.

Interesting idea.

I agree that the Enclave will try to use the Hellhounds. All I'm saying is, I doubt even that would be enough to push them near extinction.

...I'd rather like to know what Kkat was thinking when she wrote that.

Concerning the "no good deed goes unpunished", that had crossed my mind, too. Though in my own headcanon, if the NCR were to trade for anything, it would be for machine tools, industrial equipment, refined ores and some technical expertise : given how productive I'm envisioning their agriculture to be (3 to 4 harvests per year...), I could easily see them extensively using biofuels.

Oh, I've got the NCR trying to develop a domestic biofuel industry too, starting with alcohol-burning steam engines. The thing is, while it has a high potential productivity in that sector, it has zero initial capacity. It will take time to develop and produce even the basic system, and throughout that time the Alliance is offering artificially cheap diesel and the powerful, efficient engines to run on it. It's a pretty obvious ploy for power with only a thin disguise of helping the people of the NCR out... but it would provide the NCR was a much cheaper and more powerful energy system much sooner. I imagine that that would be pretty tempting, particularly since they could keep developing biofuels in the meantime (Elusive is betting, though, that they'll like petroleum so much and that they'll get hooked and won't develop a viable alternative until it's too late).

Not that it would goes against the Alliance's interests : the NCR is still relying on them for most of their industrial infrastructure, just in a different way.

Not really. Petroleum is a commodity; the NCR, to make good use of it, has to keep buying more of it. Machine tools, industrial equipment, etc. both are more or less one-time purchases and would make it easier for the NCR to produce goods domestically instead of buying from the Alliance.

[O. Hinds]

ANYONE ELSE HAVE IDEAS ON WHAT HAPPENED TO THE HELLHOUNDS EITHER TO BRING ABOUT THEIR CANON END OR INSTEAD OF IT?
Sorry for shouting, but I'm aware that a lot of people probably just skim discussions like these, if that.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Yeah... Well, sure, there'll be trade, yes.

Hmm... Yeah, indeed, potential for economic warfare, with both parties fully aware of the game they're playing, and trying to get the most out of the situation while they can.

I mean, pretty much everyone with a degree of culture above "rabid raider" knows why the War was fought in the first place place, so they have all the incentives in the world to not grow too reliant on external trade to support their own economy.

[O. Hinds]

Yeah... Well, sure, there'll be trade, yes.

Hmm... Yeah, indeed, potential for economic warfare, with both parties fully aware of the game they're playing, and trying to get the most out of the situation while they can.

I mean, pretty much everyone with a degree of culture above "rabid raider" knows why the War was fought in the first place place, so they have all the incentives in the world to not grow too reliant on external trade to support their own economy.

Right, both sides know that. If both sides are determined to be self-sufficient, though, there's no trade. That would work, but both sides get less than they otherwise would (particularly the NCR, particularly if the Alliance can get gem sources on the peninsula but outside the NCR). Opening trade increases resources, but it also increases the power the seller has over you. Even an equal-value exchange could be a problem, since it builds dependencies that could be cut, and an asymmetrical-value exchange increases the power of one party over the other. The questions are what sort of power balance an exchange will end up having and whether the benefits of the additional resources could offset the potential foreign power increase. By entering into trade agreements, the NCR and Alliance are both benefitting, but they're also both gambling that they'll end up on top.

[Harmony Ltd.]

There's different values of "coming out on top".

From my point of view, it'd be : trying to exploit the opportunity while remaining aware that it could be cut at any moment, and making a conscious effort to keep alternatives ready.

Like, in your example, buying diesel engines and the diesel to fuel them, and using them to jumpstart a biofuel production capability, which will fuel a metal working industry, which will feed a motor industry (boilers, electric motors, internal combustion engines, etc...), which will then goes to feed the entire economy...

Using, riding trade to jumpstart your economy, in place of growing reliant on trade to sustain your economy.

[O. Hinds]

There's different values of "coming out on top".

From my point of view, it'd be : trying to exploit the opportunity while remaining aware that it could be cut at any moment, and making a conscious effort to keep alternatives ready.

Like, in your example, buying diesel engines and the diesel to fuel them, and using them to jumpstart a biofuel production capability, which will fuel a metal working industry, which will feed a motor industry (boilers, electric motors, internal combustion engines, etc...), which will then goes to feed the entire economy...

Using, riding trade to jumpstart your economy, in place of growing reliant on trade to sustain your economy.

Well, biodiesel would be a later-stage biofuel, but yeah. Elusive is hoping, in my current headcanon, that the NCR's short-memoried democratic government will get comfortable with petroleum and drop support for biofuel development while the NCR is still hooked. Or at least that they won't have built their military up too much when they stop the trade, though he'd then have to listen to the Miliozi saying "Told you so!" and deal with them getting the majority of the NCR's resources instead of him. Of course, the NCR probably would have built its military up enough to give the Alliance pause, which could potentially lead to an interesting cold war scenario. The major difficulty would be the SPP and any megaspell facilities that the NCR reactivates; Celestia One, while formidable, is also relatively vulnerable and could be taken out in a first strike (or even a pre-hot-war plausibly deniable precision ground strike).
And this gives a FoE setting for sixties spy fiction!

[O. Hinds]

So… this got longer than I expected. I feel a bit like I'm writing the multiple endings for a Fallout game.

The key thing is, though, I think, whether the NCR will be successfully seduced by foreign petroleum.
__If so, we get a friendly, productive, and extensive trade relationship with the Alliance with two sub-possibilities:
____If Hell exists, Canine Petroleum prevents the Alliance from winning the economic war; while the NCR is dependent on imported petroleum, it has two potential sources that it can play off each other to its benefit.
____If Hell doesn't exist, NEROC's monopoly continues. The NCR, unless they can find their own petroleum source (using equipment either acquired by espionage or fully domestically designed and produced, since the Alliance certainly won't sell them any) or manage to get biofuel production back up and running, probably eventually become the third central member of the Alliance, which is then the dominant power on the planet.
__If the NCR rejects petroleum, the Alliance loses its by far most potent weapon in the economic war; when it becomes clear that it can't win, it will withdraw. Again, we've two sub-possibilities:
____If the Alliance judges the NCR military to already be too strong, the two powers enter a state of cold war, each scheming to try and find a way to topple the other but not daring a direct conflict. No idea how that will end, but it sounds like an interesting setting.
____If the Alliance thinks that a military victory would be practical, the Miliozi will lead an invasion. This has its own sub-possibilities:
______The Alliance wins, and subsequent NCR freedom fighters are unsuccessful. The Miliozi, as the driving force behind the military solution, receive most of the spoils. Most of the NCR's territory becomes Miliozi territory, and the rest of the Alliance snaps up the remainder. The rest of the peninsula follows in kind. The power balance of the Alliance is tipped in favor of the Miliozi, who begin to exert more control over the lesser members, the mixed new settlements, and even the Elusive Company. Exactly where the future goes from there is uncertain, but its government will probably be a benevolent military dictatorship of zebras.
______The Alliance wins but is eventually forced to pull out. The NCR, if it still recognizably exists, will be starting out with nearly no infrastructure; the Alliance will raze as much as possible in the later stages of the resistance to tray and make the people of the region completely dependent on imports. Everything will have to be rebuilt from scratch, and the Alliance will be leaning on everyone it can to not help. The NCR probably ends up massively eclipsed by the Alliance both technologically and economically and will likely not recover; they may eventually join the Alliance as a minor power.
______The NCR repels the invasion. The NCR will be damaged and angry and will probably launch a counter-invasion as soon as possible. That gets a bit too complex to simulate here, I think.

[Admiral Stoic Rum]

RE Maripony Hellhounds :

Well, the place is a well known source of gems, the Gardens cleared the taint & radiations, and most importantly the Hellhounds consider it their home - and everyone knows how territorial they are, and no one want to piss them off if they can avoid it.

The NCR and the Hellhounds came to an agreement regarding the exploitation of the region's natural resources.


Maripony itself, as in the ruins of the Goddess' lair, is sort of a pilgrimage place for the Alicorns, regardless of if they live with the NCR / Followers or chose their own path. There's also a little community of alicorns living in the surrounding area.

gardens would have cleared out all the IMP, the mines were cleaned out which is why the base was built there in the first place and then used as a storage facility. There are no gems to mine anymore.

[O. Hinds]

RE Maripony Hellhounds :

Well, the place is a well known source of gems, the Gardens cleared the taint & radiations, and most importantly the Hellhounds consider it their home - and everyone knows how territorial they are, and no one want to piss them off if they can avoid it.

The NCR and the Hellhounds came to an agreement regarding the exploitation of the region's natural resources.


Maripony itself, as in the ruins of the Goddess' lair, is sort of a pilgrimage place for the Alicorns, regardless of if they live with the NCR / Followers or chose their own path. There's also a little community of alicorns living in the surrounding area.

gardens would have cleared out all the IMP, the mines were cleaned out which is why the base was built there in the first place and then used as a storage facility. There are no gems to mine anymore.

Ah, a moment's research shows that you are correct about the lack of gems! Thank you very much for the information.

[Admiral Stoic Rum]

Gay phone post fail

[Admiral Stoic Rum]

RE Maripony Hellhounds :

Well, the place is a well known source of gems, the Gardens cleared the taint & radiations, and most importantly the Hellhounds consider it their home - and everyone knows how territorial they are, and no one want to piss them off if they can avoid it.

The NCR and the Hellhounds came to an agreement regarding the exploitation of the region's natural resources.


Maripony itself, as in the ruins of the Goddess' lair, is sort of a pilgrimage place for the Alicorns, regardless of if they live with the NCR / Followers or chose their own path. There's also a little community of alicorns living in the surrounding area.

gardens would have cleared out all the IMP, the mines were cleaned out which is why the base was built there in the first place and then used as a storage facility. There are no gems to mine anymore.

Ah, a moment's research shows that you are correct about the lack of gems! Thank you very much for the information.

Happy to keep a head cannon from misfiring.


I would rather call it a world view anyway.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Then Hell exist, and it is populated by over-sized, over-territorial and over-aggressive dogs.

A thing I haven't quite understood : what's the causal link between the Dogs / Hounds living in Hell and them presenting an alternative to NEROC's monopoly on oil ?

By the way, what does "NEROC" stands for ?


Oh, and one last thing : "Hell" is the new name for Ponyville and the surrounding area, right ?

[Harmony Ltd.]

Why would the Alliance be so keen on going to war, either economic or armed, with the Equestrian Peninsula ? Are they still hung up about the whole "nuclear war" deal, or is it something else ?

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