Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Quotidian]

Hmm... The thing is, the Remnant has been a part of the story for a long, long time. Lancer was introduced in, what, chapter nine? Sekashi dropped hints about the Legate a few chapters later. If anything, the Harbingers are the newcomers.

And... I don't think the Remnant is doing the Eater's business, are they?

[Snipehamster]

Hmm... The thing is, the Remnant has been a part of the story for a long, long time. Lancer was introduced in, what, chapter nine? Sekashi dropped hints about the Legate a few chapters later. If anything, the Harbingers are the newcomers.

Quite true. But what has the Remnant actually done up to this point except make BJ's life harder? If anything, the Harbingers deserve more of a presence throughout the early story, given their fairly abrupt introduction. There's plenty of places where an early cameo of the faction, or even a meeting with Dawn, might fit in without much trouble.

And... I don't think the Remnant is doing the Eater's business, are they?

As Somber spoiled a few pages back,

Spoiler:

Edit: Spoiler tags. Whoops.

[Moodyman90]

Somber also put that under the spoiler tag so people who didn't want to look wouldn't have that spoiled.

[Icy Shake]

Hmm... The thing is, the Remnant has been a part of the story for a long, long time. Lancer was introduced in, what, chapter nine? Sekashi dropped hints about the Legate a few chapters later. If anything, the Harbingers are the newcomers.

Quite true. But what has the Remnant actually done up to this point except make BJ's life harder? If anything, the Harbingers deserve more of a presence throughout the early story, given their fairly abrupt introduction. There's plenty of places where an early cameo of the faction, or even a meeting with Dawn, might fit in without much trouble.

They were up to something at Yellow River, weren't they? But I'll certainly agree that the Harbingers showed up pretty fast.

And... I don't think the Remnant is doing the Eater's business, are they?

As Somber spoiled a few pages back,

Spoiler:

Edit: Spoiler tags. Whoops.

Spoiler:

[Snipehamster]

The Remnant were looking for the phoenix talisman. The Legate explained in this chapter that it was to keep it from falling into Blackjack's control, but dismissed Lancer's failure as an annoyance.

As for your second point,

Spoiler:

[jacky2734]

Sniperhamster, while you're on, you're still managing the PH TvTropes page right?
I've got a small question about that. Why is the Goddess the only one listed under large ham when Paladin Stronghoof's character is based on the Hammiest Major in all of Anime?

[Mr. Snrub]

is it bad that the ending of PH already pisses me off even if it hasn´t been writen yet? Because im quite sure i have a pretty good idea of how it ends, as long as Somber doesn´t do a Shamalama-Ding-Dong Twist-Ending and makes it all a Dream, or Space-wolves.

[Vergil]

Okay, I'll override my Switzerland comment just to chime in with this- personally, I like the ridiculous amount of characters/events/factions in PH. This is one of the few fictional worlds that, for me at least, actually feels alive as a result of everything going on. I tend to stay away from a lot of fiction because most of it feels incredibly flat to me (side effect of being a history student maybe?)

As for the power creep argument, I personally don't have any issues with the way Somber has things laid out at the moment, though it wouldn't particularly bother me if things were changed. You guys are the team for a reason, I trust you to know best.

[Sindri]

is it bad that the ending of PH already pisses me off even if it hasn´t been writen yet? Because im quite sure i have a pretty good idea of how it ends, as long as Somber doesn´t do a Shamalama-Ding-Dong Twist-Ending and makes it all a Dream, or Space-wolves.

Really? How does it end? Because I've got 17 mutually exclusive theories and I'm pretty sure they're all wrong.

Okay, I'll override my Switzerland comment just to chime in with this- personally, I like the ridiculous amount of characters/events/factions in PH. This is one of the few fictional worlds that, for me at least, actually feels alive as a result of everything going on. I tend to stay away from a lot of fiction because most of it feels incredibly flat to me (side effect of being a history student maybe?)

As for the power creep argument, I personally don't have any issues with the way Somber has things laid out at the moment, though it wouldn't particularly bother me if things were changed. You guys are the team for a reason, I trust you to know best.

Seconded. :

[Quotidian]

...or Space-wolves.

Actually, I'd be pretty okay with that.

[Ketchup]

Seconded. :

I think this way as well. The world building is a big part of what makes the universe so rich.

[Derpmind]

I think that if the fight had only been a duel between BJ and the Legate, without involving anyone else fighting, then this discussion wouldn't have blown up like it has. Just have the Legate use his army to barter a duel with BJ in exchange for not killing everyone else, and then have the Legate beat BJ. You can make the Legate seem powerful enough that he could beat everpony in the team, but actually showing that happen and with seemingly little effort on the Legate's part is what's got half of everyone's shoes tied sideways.

Noone saw the rest of this post, BTW, ok? It was pointless and it's gone now and if you did read it, I'm sorry.

[Cptadder]

I get free and four more pages to read and respond to. So naturally I spend two hours reading about breeder reactors in Minecraft instead.

Okay time to start taking on things one by one or this thread will run away from me forever. First up...

Sindri

The Legate has no other place to go, sure we could see him tear about 100 raiders with two hooves tied behind his back and a bucket on his head, but we already know he can take on a tank and five high level badass and our main character with ease. In terms of selling us on how dangerous the Legate, there is literally no place to go with him. If Blackjack becomes dangerous enough to go one on one with the Legate then you can only start throwing gods at her because everything else short of giant Mecha won't be able to compare.

He doesn't need to go up in power; he's been building for centuries and thus pretty much peaked. He doesn't need to go up in apparent threat level because he's already vying with Dawn for the top of the curb-stomp tier. And you seem to be forgetting that Blackjack's taken down giant mecha before, and Littlepip killed a Goddess at significantly lower level.

Your misunderstanding me, the Legate has blown his entrance (To continue with wrestling metaphors). He can not get more impressive from his introduction. He did the wrestling equivalent of showing up to take on the World Champion Holder and the Tag Team World Champions in the same ring at the same time. Where can he go power wise from here? Dawn is much less impressive than the Legate power wise because Dawn is a winged cyborg pony with nasty enervation weapons. But we've not see her giant beam attack or her swarming of homing missiles or being torn in half and the halves wiggling back together again. We saw Dawn fight someone who did not fight back, take quite a few hits and escape. We've not seen what Dawn is capable of is a direct fight. There's room for the threat of Dawn to grow, to be a threat rather than what we got with the Legate.

Also the giant mecha Blackjack fight she was running from, had help and it was still a tie if I recall as it can still reassemble itself. When she fought Deus Tank she had all the advantages of an infantryman(pony) against armor and she had her guilt trip special attack charged up and ready to go. As for Littlepip, she talked a Goddess to distraction while a zebra snuck a nuke in below her. The Goddess was powerful... but she's not mobile making her incredibly locally dangerous but not a huge threat all things considered since if you cripple the Alicorns you face a powerful but immobile psycher.

Point is his introduction was so strong and his character so flat there is no place to go with him. He's uninteresting.... he's Sombra bad.

His character on the other hand has many places to go from here. Maybe or maybe not in terms of development and progression, but definitely in terms of discovery. This is his first appearance, and it raised a dozen questions for each it answered. There's far too much about him, his motivations, and his background which we do not know, and that information is almost certainly vital to stopping him.

His first attack was to kick the ass of the entire party, maime his own son and let the heroes go while proclaiming how amazing he is. His introduction is as an amazingly one dimensional mwhahahauer Zebra who never read the evil overlord list.

Vitiosus started as a political figure, shows up to demonstrate his powers in detail, displays a passable (if abhorrent) personality, hands out some foreshadowing and character development points to all around, drops a handful of adventure hooks, and then steps back into his recurring high-level villain slot until the endgame. He's pretty close to the exact opposite of Sombra, as villains go.

I will not make the argument that his impact was Sombra bad, but that his personality is Sombra bad. As the decisions he's made to date only make sense if he's a bloody lunatic. Tell me Sindri what is the Legate going to do if Blackjack gets herself offed (AGAIN) and he's got no Maiden to satisfy his desires to have a dragon to slay (So to speak). Will he just adapt or will he withdraw and wait... since he is centuries old at this point and Hoofington still stands. Has he been resting? Acting only through agents?

Seriously if the Legate has the super powers to do what he can, why has he not depopulated the area? I can understand him having the issue of not being able to use his earth bending VS the Enclave and being forced to hold back there. But why is he not already atop a throne of pony skulls at the gates of Hoofington a hundred years ago?

*Edit
To expand on the Legate fight on a minor tangent, less people would object if we had gotten a hint of weakeness. Zebra's uses fetishes to power their magic, that an alchemical concoctions to strengthen themselves. What if we see Legate not as some foe but a player character equivalent? IE what if he's packing forty healing potions, a dozen rampages and ultra-dashes and more? How would the fight have gone if every time the Legate used a super move or took a hit some little fetish hanging off his armor was burning off. Or a glyphs would pulse and fade slightly. Then Blackjack could observe that he was frigging COVERED in glyphs so trying to outlast him would be a fools task? That's a twist that might have made things interesting if you imagined Blackjack and Co not as a the main heroes for a moment but as if the Legate was and how geared he should be after all these years in the waste.

[StoneSlinger88]

Keep in mind BJ herself has said she's not a smart pony. Since we are viewing it through her eyes, my guess would be she didn't see something that possibly another character did. Maybe Dues, 'seeing' with cameras, caught something everyone else missed.

[Exodus Hero]

Seems like most everyone has a slight problem with the legate in this chapter. Didn't bother me at all, I thought it was cool (love glyphs and the idea of overpowered characters). But the one thing that bothered me the most is that we didn't really get to see Scotch Tape's reaction to what happened on the bridge. I would have enjoyed reading some interaction between her and Blackjack about what happened, even if it was minute. I mean, Scotch Tape heard the entire events on the Seahorse happen, seems kind of a shame to let what happened at the bridge slip by. Also I would have liked the bridge scene to go down where Blackjack makes an example of her rapist by gelding him instead of killing him. Kind of, "I'm still not a killer but I'll still make your life miserable for wronging me and other ponies" kind of deal.

Those are my thoughts, what do you guys think?

[Mister Nikel]

Man this Legate is a real base breaker ain't he? Also Sindri is trying way too hard to justify him IMO.

[FeatherDust]

Where can he go power wise from here? Dawn is much less impressive than the Legate power wise because Dawn is a winged cyborg pony with nasty enervation weapons. But we've not see her giant beam attack or her swarming of homing missiles or being torn in half and the halves wiggling back together again. We saw Dawn fight someone who did not fight back, take quite a few hits and escape. We've not seen what Dawn is capable of is a direct fight. There's room for the threat of Dawn to grow, to be a threat rather than what we got with the Legate.

I'd argue we haven't seen the full extent of the Legate's power either. But does that really matter? Assuming we've seen everything the Legate can bring to the table, so what? He's the end boss. He won't show up again for, I dunno, thirty or forty chapters. We'll learn more information about his character, personality, and background, but he's not gonna show up again until the end of the tale, presumably when BJ is at the peak of her abilities. And when she faces him, it's all about nullifying or countering all his vast powers. Why the heck would he NEED to get more powers and become increasingly impressive?

I will not make the argument that his impact was Sombra bad, but that his personality is Sombra bad...

I really can't even respond to this. You're just making assumptions left and right here -- and remember, when you make an assumption, you make an ass of you and umption.

His decisions only make sense if he's a lunatic. -- Based on what? Do you have a magical phone line into Somber's brain so you know what the Legate's true desires are? How can you judge whether his actions are rational if you don't know what he's trying to accomplish?

What's he going to do if BJ dies? -- That depends on what he's trying to accomplish, see point #1. He let her go, so she must be useful to his plans.

Why has he not depopulated the area? Why is he not already atop a throne of pony skulls? -- Obviously, because neither of those are what he wants from his life. Back to point #1 again; how does killing everyone and building a skull throne get him what he wants? Well, first you'd have to know what he wants, and since we don't... we can't judge his choices.

Sombra was bad because he never got any development before his wrap up. He showed up as a monster, was a lurking threat, and left as a monster. We never got any idea of what he wanted (beyond crystallllsss, ssslavessss) and as a result he was a boring enemy.

The Legate may be a boring invincible villain right now, but that's only because he just now appeared. We have thirty or forty chapters left for him to be fleshed out (even if he's not on screen) as the heroes learn about his background. You can't call BS on his decision-making until the credits roll.

[FeatherDust]

By the way, change of subject:

Back in the chapter discussions, some people were saying that Psalm was the one who broke the pact, not Big Mac. I don't think that works, though -- that doesn't follow the terms of the curse.

The curse was that they'd do great things as long as they stick together, but if one of them broke the faith, they'd all die, and the traitor would die first and most easily. Big Macintosh died first, died instantly and painlessly, and was hailed a hero -- that's the "easy death". So that means he must be the one who broke the fellowship, and it's true; he was planning to retire. "Just one last mission." (Geez, don't ever tell anyone that. If you're planning to retire or about to get married, keep your yap shut until it happens.)

Remember, even Echo accepted that Mac was the 'traitor', last chapter -- and he knew about Psalm.

[Kippershy]

I wonder if i'm at all being too harsh about the Legate and if I should just let Somber write whatever the hell he likes, but then I remember he's trying to do this for us (mostly) and read adders posts and go: GO ADDER GO.

/Tiny moment of guilt for a split second.

[Retl]

Ideals are good and all, but only in a civilized world... BJ, Cheer the fuck up and embrace your role as a hero and all that comes with it... I want badass funny Blackjack back. The one that gets drunk and gelds people while singing and spits in the face of fate while cheating death over and over.

Yeah! Embrace it, revel in the slaughter you are capable of! Be the instrument of chaos and destruction! All who hate you die, all who love you suffer, misery pursues you like hunting hounds... wait. shit.

Is Badass-Funny a legal PnP alignment? I'd like to use it on everything! (/exaggeration.)
Text about enjoying Project Horizons for my wonky tastes and filling a fanfic niche:

I use 'anime' as a shorthand, not a weapon:

The curse was that they'd do great things as long as they stick together, but if one of them broke the faith, they'd all die, and the traitor would die first and most easily. Big Macintosh died first, died instantly and painlessly, and was hailed a hero -- that's the "easy death". So that means he must be the one who broke the fellowship, and it's true; he was planning to retire.

I always forget details like this. And here I was ready to blame Psalm for everything. Even given that Big Mcintosh got that easy death, does that mean that Psalm's actions were not considered traitorous at all by the curse, or that maybe she suffered a different effect? Though I suppose we may have never had details for if multiple betrayed the group. (Time to go reread the chapter again. Derp.)

[Cptadder]

I'm at work now so I will keep this short. iPhone keyboard and all that. Kipper this discussion is useful for Somber. No writer is perfect and somber has asked for honest reactions and feedback. Good feedback requires honest responses and a bit of explination. Why we like thing X vs not liking thing why is useful. And sometimes you can't please everyone. Major Stronghoof is a good example. To those who have seen FMA it's a hilarious proxy. To those that have no idea what FMA is or is about the Major can be a big WTF moment.
Keep it calm, keep it honest and keep it civil and there is no need or room for guilt.

Besides kipper you scare somber even when you tell him what a good job he's doing.

[Kippershy]

The reason I say im rooting for you is because you know of such ways to explain what you mean that make a hell of a lot more sense than anything I can come up withbecause my brain is one big puddle of fuuuuuuuck.
when people dispute your point, they have to fight logically thought out arguments where mine are often impulse fed feelings because im retarded.

also due to the fact that you are right, I scare somber without the slightest of attempt to do soand im the same IRL too with a lot of other people.

so yeah, rooting for you because I entirely agree and would end up making somber cry if I wasrto say whats on my mind.

[FeatherDust]

I was listening to the Order 66 podcast, which is about Star Wars tabletop gaming, and special guest Sam Witwer was discussing fan reaction to his recent work as the voice of a revived Darth Maul on the Clone Wars tv show.  This seemed so apropos to the current discussion...
 
 

Other fans were like, "THAT is not Darth Maul!  He's [supposed to be] super cool and does flips and talks soft!  They ruined it!"  And it's like, give us a second, dude, give us a moment.  You really wanna say... look, here's where it's going and here's why we're doing that.  But you can't.
Fans can be impatient sometimes.  And they're impatient because they don't want anyone ruining something.  They're impatient because they care.  But that care does give way to comments thare are a little bit ignorant -- in terms of, they're thinking that what we're showing you is the only thing we're ever going to show you.  Y'know, it's going to evolve.  And after [the most recent episode] aired, with these cons we're talking about, boy the Darth Maul love has been coming out.  It did come out before, some; a lot of people were happy with it.  But now it's just everyone seems overjoyed.

[FeatherDust]

I always forget details like this. And here I was ready to blame Psalm for everything. Even given that Big Mcintosh got that easy death, does that mean that Psalm's actions were not considered traitorous at all by the curse, or that maybe she suffered a different effect?

The curse didn't say anything about the second traitor. It just said if anyone broke the faith, they would all die, and that first to break would have the best and easiest death. Once Mac broke the fellowship, further betrayals don't fall under the terms of the curse, other than causing the bad ends for everyone.

By the way -- hi, Retl! Long time no see. Didn't know you were in this thread!

[Icy Shake]

And sometimes you can't please everyone. Major Stronghoof is a good example. To those who have seen FMA it's a hilarious proxy. To those that have no idea what FMA is or is about the Major can be a big WTF moment.

Maybe I'm an unusual case, but I actually disliked Stronghoof because I saw FMA; I didn't care for the fact that a hugely recognizable character was basically lifted from an unrelated franchise and added to this one. But it ultimately didn't end up impacting my enjoyment of the story as a whole too much, or even the scenes he was in.

[Sindri]

I think that if the fight had only been a duel between BJ and the Legate, without involving anyone else fighting, then this discussion wouldn't have blown up like it has. Just have the Legate use his army to barter a duel with BJ in exchange for not killing everyone else, and then have the Legate beat BJ. You can make the Legate seem powerful enough that he could beat everpony in the team, but actually showing that happen and with seemingly little effort on the Legate's part is what's got half of everyone's shoes tied sideways.

The problem with that threat is that a hundred cyberzebras, armed with a mix of powerhooves and marksman carbines, could not stand against Deus and Rampage. They would be cut down en masse without dealing significant damage, because infantry versus a tank doesn't work without demolition charges, rocket launchers, mortars, or other serious equipment they didn't bring. Their weapons could not harm Deus or Rampage (and the squishier heroes can just duck inside their tank), but they would be mowed through in return. Vitiosus would be sacrificing a hundred useful minions for a few minutes of dubious tactical advantage in a fight from which he did not intend to gain anything.
Or relying on a threat being effective against three Reapers, the Enclave military, and P-21. None of them are known to respond well to intimidation.

I will not make the argument that his impact was Sombra bad, but that his personality is Sombra bad.

Did Sombra have a personality? I must have missed the parts where he actually dd anything or had any motivation.

As the decisions he's made to date only make sense if he's a bloody lunatic. Tell me Sindri what is the Legate going to do if Blackjack gets herself offed (AGAIN) and he's got no Maiden to satisfy his desires to have a dragon to slay (So to speak).

If his goal is to kill the Maiden at the height of her power and he actually believes the prophesies, then he gets nothing by killing her now and knows that she won't die permanently before then or she wasn't the Maiden in the first place. If his goal is for her to destroy one or more of his enemies or obstacles, odds are she'll get to destroying it sooner or later, there's nothing he can really do to accelerate that process other than getting out of her way, and short of assigning her a bodyguard or following her around himself forever he can't really improve her chances. He never wanted the confrontation in this chapter; it was a result of shitty luck and Lancer's machinations, and he ended it without losing face or weakening either of their groups significantly. His actions are those of a rational schemer making the best of a bad situation.

Seriously if the Legate has the super powers to do what he can, why has he not depopulated the area? I can understand him having the issue of not being able to use his earth bending VS the Enclave and being forced to hold back there. But why is he not already atop a throne of pony skulls at the gates of Hoofington a hundred years ago?

Maybe because his goal is not mindless slaughter, but to actually accomplish something? Evil != stupid.

less people would object if we had gotten a hint of weakeness.

He did. Anyone paying attention would note that Rampage was shattering his armor, that he cannot adequately respond to attacks from multiple directions, that he always made an effort to guard his face even to the point of tactical disadvantage... why is it that so many people see 'powerful' and assume 'invincible' instead of looking for a weak spot to tear at? A few swipes at his talismans with the starmetal sword or hellhound claws would remove huge chunks of his capability at a time, that spear seemed to be a focus for most of his elemental command stuff so disarming him is worth a shot, and there's a good chance that taking his dramatic face-concealing helmet off would seriously mess up his plans. You can't dismiss an opponent as without weakness until you've tested his obvious potential weaknesses. Meanwhile he seems to believe that he's invincible and his plans seem to require Blackjack alive at the moment, so there ought to be plenty of opportunity to chip away at his power base before he even starts fighting seriously.

Man this Legate is a real base breaker ain't he? Also Sindri is trying way too hard to justify him IMO.

I have put no more effort into his justifications than others have into his defamations.

Back in the chapter discussions, some people were saying that Psalm was the one who broke the pact, not Big Mac. I don't think that works, though -- that doesn't follow the terms of the curse.

Yeah, I was wrong there.

[Mister Nikel]

You know I just realized.

*LEGATE SPOILERS*

Spoiler:

[Sindri]

You know I just realized.

*LEGATE SPOILERS*

Spoiler:

It's also possible that Cognitum's interest in EC-1101 isn't for the sake of Horizons, but either to prevent others from activating the Project or just to give her full access to the Core systems.

Spoiler:

[FeatherDust]

Back in the chapter discussions, some people were saying that Psalm was the one who broke the pact, not Big Mac. I don't think that works, though -- that doesn't follow the terms of the curse.

Yeah, I was wrong there.

Well, assuming we decide to believe in starkaterri curses and aren't using some confirmation bias.

After all, Stonewing didn't technically die, but he was removed from the group and marked as dead before Mac's breaking off. I don't see that Macintosh's survival would have stopped him becoming a chimera. So maybe the curse was in their heads and in the fact that nothing lasts forever, and all the badness is just because those with power are the most able to misuse power, and great power means little mistakes have huge results.


Side issue, regarding Deus's aphasia:
Didn't somebody once quip that if you took away his ability to say cunt, he would not be able to speak at all?

[Sindri]

Side issue, regarding Deus's aphasia:
Didn't somebody once quip that if you took away his ability to say cunt, he would not be able to speak at all?

Hah! Dawn decided to teach him some manners, and it completely removed his ability to communicate?

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