Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Quotidian]

That feel when two sides of an argument are equally cogent and you're too dumb and inarticulate to do much but post a "that feel" meme.

[Frost]

That feel when two sides of an argument are equally cogent and you're too dumb and inarticulate to do much but post a "that feel" meme.

That's why I've just spent the last four months lurking

[Ketchup]

Kinda speculative, meh.

The problem now seems to be coming up with credible enemies for Blackjack to fight. The introduction of more and more intricacies in the plot isn't necessarily a bad thing, and provokes thought. I like this, even if I fail to get much of what is going on.

Lancer can't kill her, because she's bulletproof and his shots bounce off anyway, not to mention that he fails at everything. Dawn seems like a worthy opponent, as she seems almost as indestructible and powerful as Blackjack is. The Legate is very anime-esque, and has so far an essentially unlimited power. Because he's the champion of such-and-such. The Harbinger troops can kill only her allies, and essentially fighting them results in protecting everyone else.

So, really, the Legate isn't necessary to provide a challenge for Blackjack in a fight, as Dawn is around. So what is he for? An introduction to someone she'll never be able to beat until she destroys the source of power. That's my hypothesis, she's going to break something in that curse-gift mechanic, and he'll be comparatively harmless.

[O. Hinds]

Some bandits are just plying their trade on a lonely bridge when the Security Mare, her entourage, three GPE soldiers, and a tank
roll up without warning; none of the bandits thought that she'd have
any reason to be in the area. The bandits (well, except one of them)
escape certain death only because Blackjack's moral code says that she
shouldn't kill them under the circumstances. How does Vitiosus sparing
Blackjack and company make less sense than Blackjack and company sparing
the bridge bandits?

Because BJ and her friends are the 'good guys' -- they've been well established as trying to do better and avoid violence where they can. They strive for idealism even against common sense. The Legate and his cronies have been established as utter bastards by contrast, to the point where the Legate will casually maim his own son for the lulz.

He has BJ on the ropes, appears more than willing to kill her friends, has every possible advantage, then decides to wander off and fap because for some arbitrary reason BJ can't die yet.

And the Remnant strut around cackling about how evil and villainous they are? They believe that they're the heroes and Blackjack and company are villains. The bandits probably don't think of themselves as heroes, but I'm betting that they don't think of themselves as villains. They're doing what it takes to survive in the Wasteland, the same sort of thing everpony else does (better, actually; it's not like they're raiders), and then along comes this soft stable filly who wants to "clean up" Hoofington but has no idea what it's like to have to grow up and survive out in the wastes. And then, then, when she's got them at her mercy and could easily wipe them off the world like the stain she believes them to be, she leaves them alive to keep doing whatever they want, apparently just trusting that they'll try to do better? She doesn't even rob them before she leaves? She must be insane.

Even if we're applying different rules to heroes and villains (which is another argument entirely), who is which depends to a very great extent on one's point of view.

[Sindri]

Oh, sure. He could very well be lying about his motivations.

But at this point, with so many plot threads left unfulfilled, why are saiyan zebras and their armies-of-cyborgs-from-nowhere even being brought into the narrative? Why should anybody care? We all know that 10 chapters or so down the line he's either going to repent and die in tears like a bitch or get violently killed by whatever form BJ takes next (bonus points if Lancer or the EoS kill him instead).

Internal consistency and willing suspension of disbelief can stretch only so far. Magical ponies with guns? Sure, why not? Ancient conspiracies? Perfectly fine. Monsters from space? Okay, if that's what works. Equines with spears catching tank shells with their hooves and laughing off point-blank explosions that would otherwise level buildings? A line has been crossed somewhere.

Deus went 52 chapters before starting to try to repent. Sanguine didn't die for what, 38? I would be very surprised if Vitiosus leaves before the endgame; he and Dawn are the highest tier threats that can be faced directly and the only things above them are Cognitum and the Eater of Souls. Anyway, the army of cyborg zebras was choreographed like a dozen chapters back.

And if a line has been crossed, where was it? Blackjack running through a hail of .50 cal bullets is fine, Deus and Psychoshy and Steel Rain are all perfectly acceptable, but somebody using talismans and deals with higher powers instead of power armor, cyberization, and slugthrowers is suddenly too far?

Because BJ and her friends are the 'good guys' -- they've been well established as trying to do better and avoid violence where they can. They strive for idealism even against common sense. The Legate and his cronies have been established as utter bastards by contrast, to the point where the Legate will casually maim his own son for the lulz.

He has BJ on the ropes, appears more than willing to kill her friends, has every possible advantage, then decides to wander off and fap because for some arbitrary reason BJ can't die yet.

Very few people are the villain in their own story. You're saying that evil cannot have standards? That chastising someone who has gone too far mandates slaughter under every circumstance? That every villain needs to be bloodthirsty enough to kill even when killing would be against your plans and likely doom the world?

Instead of assuming that he left her alive because he's stupid or because the plot armor demanded it, try thinking of rational reasons for her to still be around. I've got dozens already, and I'm sure more will come up as we learn more of what he's actually doing.

[Snipehamster]

The Brood of Coyotl don't come out of nowhere; we saw them back
in the memory of the Phoenix talisman passing to Twist.

Indeed, which is why I amended to 'without much foreshadowing'.

I find this interesting.
You are saying that suspension of disbelief may be stretched too far by
something other than internal consistency failures?

Of course. Again, there's a line between "It's magic, I ain't gotta explain shit" and "Look what I just pulled out of my ass".

Even if we're applying different rules to heroes and villains (which is another argument entirely), who is which depends to a very great extent on one's point of view.

Okay, fine. The murderous, backstabbing faction dedicated to the destruction of Hoofington and all of ponykind, led by a monstrously powerful star-cultist and backed up by an army of emotionless automatons, are just poor, misunderstood unfortunates trying to get by.

...okay.

[Sindri]

Even if we're applying different rules to heroes and villains (which is another argument entirely), who is which depends to a very great extent on one's point of view.

Okay, fine. The murderous, backstabbing faction dedicated to the destruction of Hoofington and all of ponykind, led by a monstrously powerful star-cultist and backed up by an army of emotionless automatons, are just poor, misunderstood unfortunates trying to get by.

...okay.

You know what's under Hoofington. Wanting that place wiped off the map is hardly an evil goal.

If, of course, it is his goal instead of just a line he uses to keep the loyalty of his minions and the power their title gives. At this point I'd give about even odds of him wanting Blackjack to destroy the Eater, or him wanting Blackjack to destroy Cognitum so he can use/serve the Eater.

[Snipehamster]

Well, suffice it to say that I know what he wants.

[O. Hinds]

Okay, fine. The murderous, backstabbing faction dedicated to the destruction of Hoofington and all of ponykind, led by a monstrously powerful star-cultist and backed up by an army of emotionless automatons, are just poor, misunderstood unfortunates trying to get by.

They, from their point of view, aren't just trying to get by, they're heroes, soldiers fighting a just war long after almost everyone else gave it up.
What matters, though, isn't what their point of view is, it's what the universe's point of view is... or that would matter if the universe applied different rules to heroes and villains, which I don't think Somber's version of the FoE universe does.

[Sindri]

What matters, though, isn't what their point of view is, it's what the universe's point of view is... or that would matter if the universe applied different rules to heroes and villains, which I don't think Somber's version of the FoE universe does.

I dunno, the average lifespan of a hero who is not Blackjack seems to be significantly higher than the average lifespan of a villain who doesn't repent.

Of course the average lifespan of a Blackjack at this point is what, 10? She really needs to stop dying so often.

Wait shit, if Vitiosus is immortal then that throws off all my math. He might single-hoofedly bring the average villain's lifespan up enough to even things or upset them the other way.

tl;dr Vitiosus needs to die to make my statistical analysis easier.

[Moodyman90]

Eh, at this point in time I'm going to just wait and see.

After 50+ chapters I think Somber can pull whatever he has planned off.

[Kippershy]

So, before I go to sleep, there's one particular post I'm going to share with you all.

Spoiler:

[O. Hinds]

So, before I go to sleep, there's one particular post I'm going to share with you all.

Spoiler:

Yes, let's keep magic and technology separated and never ever explore ways of mixing them, because no good can possibly come of that.

[Snipehamster]

Yes, let's keep magic and technology separated and never ever explore
ways of mixing them, because no good can possibly come of that.

Mixing them is fine, but care must be taken when one has not one but two sources of "ain't gotta explain shit" at their disposal.

[Sindri]

So, before I go to sleep, there's one particular post I'm going to share with you all.

Spoiler:

Yeah, people who want to write stories with magic in them should use worlds that have magic in them, instead of worlds that have magic and also technology based entirely on magic!

The only thing this post tells you is that he has no idea what PH is about and has never read a FoE story.

Mixing them is fine, but care must be taken when one has not one but two sources of "ain't gotta explain shit" at their disposal.

First, all of the tech is also magic. Those aren't lasers, they're scorching ray spells in metal tubes.

Second, functional magic isn't just a handwave. It has rules, and so long as the story is internally consistent those rules are just as good as the old laws of physics. Unless you think that when you turn on a television in real life it's god saying 'it's science, I ain't gotta explain shit' rather than an actual physical process going on.

[Vergil]

Yeah I'm just gonna have to Switzerland on this one.

[Icy Shake]

Instead of assuming that he left her alive because he's stupid or because the plot armor demanded it, try thinking of rational reasons for her to still be around. I've got dozens already, and I'm sure more will come up as we learn more of what he's actually doing.

Well, even without thinking of specific reasons why he would leave her alive, from a narrative standpoint I think it was pretty well established that he would only kill her under certain circumstances. After all, if he was just going to pragmatically seek to remove Blackjack as an obstacle, then why would he insist that no one under his command kill her? I guess it could make sense as an ego trip/status issue, but crushing someone that a subordinate could have bumped off earlier seems, to me, to only work in that capacity if there were personal history between them.

What matters, though, isn't what their point of view is, it's what the universe's point of view is... or that would matter if the universe applied different rules to heroes and villains, which I don't think Somber's version of the FoE universe does.

I dunno, the average lifespan of a hero who is not Blackjack seems to be significantly higher than the average lifespan of a villain who doesn't repent.

Well, within the story itself, sure. But you have to figure that the bandits from the bridge, for example, were villains far longer than Blackjack, Glory, Lacunae, Rampage, the ghoul griffin, Xanthe, the Stealth Suit, Snips & Snails, etc. have been heroes. Or, for that matter, than Big Daddy's group were heroes--they lasted, what, a handful of years? A decade or so? It's just that we only see the very end of the villains' careers.

[FeatherDust]

He has BJ on the ropes, appears more than willing to kill her friends, has every possible advantage, then decides to wander off and fap because for some arbitrary reason BJ can't die yet.

Rather, I would say he didn't tell us why he wants her alive. He spouted some obvious bullshit about destiny, but I'll tell you right now that he knows something we and Blackjack don't, and she's important to getting him what he wants. Which is likely to be "total control over the Eater" but who knows WHAT he might want?

Considering his vast regenerative powers, maybe he's somewhat like Rampage and really, really wants to find a way to die. (I tend to doubt that, since there's no reason for the subterfuge in that case, but just to point out that we know very little about his goals and the challenges he faces.)

So, really, the Legate isn't necessary to provide a challenge for Blackjack in a fight, as Dawn is around. So what is he for? An introduction to someone she'll never be able to beat until she destroys the source of power.

Maybe. But on the other hand, Dawn is the immediate NEXT challenge. The Legate is a future foe; we got a little look at what's ahead, and it gives you a sense of impending doom. He's now a goal to aim for, a challenge to be studied, and so on. Yes, ultimately BJ will have to destroy his power source and/or gain power enough to match him. But that's not for a long time yet -- you almost always get a look at the final boss early in a game, and have it shoved in your face how very outmatched you are.

[Snipehamster]

Second, functional magic isn't just a handwave. It has rules, and so
long as the story is internally consistent those rules are just as good
as the old laws of physics. Unless you think that when you turn on a
television in real life it's god saying 'it's science, I ain't gotta
explain shit' rather than an actual physical process going on.

Indeed. Magic has rules. So how is the Legate (a zebra; no horn) tougher and stronger than Rampage, more magical than Lacunae, capable of several types of elemental magic (including forcing a power-armored cyborg to the ground through air pressure alone), and perceptive/quick enough to catch a tank shell in midair?

In what way does that fit the rules of magic established in either FiM, FoE or even PH?

[O. Hinds]

First, all of the tech is also magic. Those aren't lasers, they're scorching ray spells in metal tubes.

Well, I wouldn't say that all of the tech is magic. I prefer to think of it as "technology, but based on physics that isn't ours and which contains things that are called and appear to us to be magic". [/pedantic] But yeah.

[O. Hinds]

Second, functional magic isn't just a handwave. It has rules, and so
long as the story is internally consistent those rules are just as good
as the old laws of physics. Unless you think that when you turn on a
television in real life it's god saying 'it's science, I ain't gotta
explain shit' rather than an actual physical process going on.

Indeed. Magic has rules. So how is the Legate (a zebra; no horn) tougher and stronger than Rampage, more magical than Lacunae, capable of several types of elemental magic (including forcing a power-armored cyborg to the ground through air pressure alone), and perceptive/quick enough to catch a tank shell in midair?

In what way does that fit any established rules of magic in either FiM, FoE or even PH?

"Well, I think that we've pretty much gotten all of physics sorted out now. Just that pesky ultraviolet catastrophe and a few other small problems outside the rules, but it's not as if there are entire vast disciplines that we haven't noticed yet!"
And, also, the forum has come up with some good explanations for a lot of his abilities.

[Sindri]

Indeed. Magic has rules. So how is the Legate (a zebra; no horn) tougher and stronger than Rampage, more magical than Lacunae, capable of several types of elemental magic (including forcing a power-armored cyborg to the ground through air pressure alone), and perceptive/quick enough to catch a tank shell in midair?

In what way does that fit any established rules of magic in either FiM, FoE or even PH?

Zebras are well established as masters of talismans and alchemy. In Kkat's tale, Littlepip was modified by zebras is the same way Blackjack was modified by cybernetics and with similar results. So unless you think that the glowing runes carved into the bones of dragons are just for show, and a zebra warlord would never take advantage of the easy personal augmentations available to zebra soldiers, the only things we haven't seen yet are his elemental command abilities, which were stated to be a function of his role as Legate and will be investigated fully in the future. Of those, only the air pressure trick is beyond what has come before; the lightning is inaccurate and unlikely to be more powerful than conventional energy weapons, and the earth control has accomplished nothing so far but lifting Deus off his treads for a moment.

[FeatherDust]

Yes, let's keep magic and technology separated and never ever explore
ways of mixing them, because no good can possibly come of that.

Mixing them is fine, but care must be taken when one has not one but two sources of "ain't gotta explain shit" at their disposal.

Actually I don't think the Legate is very far off of what we got in Fallout New Vegas.

The whole concept of the Legion is idiotic on its face. They shun technology (except for a few hunting rifles and things) and tech armor, and instead depend entirely on outdated armor, drugs, and guts. They should be wiped out in short order by any organized force using superior weaponry unless they outnumber the opponent by a ridiculous degree. And Legate Lanius is just silly; my sniper put four .50 cal rounds through his forehead at relatively close range and he just ran off to go grab some grenades.

If magic existed in FNV, he'd be doing just about the stuff the zebra Legate is doing.

And more to the point, you DO have to explain shit -- but good god, you don't have to do so at the character's first appearance! Are you serious?! Nobody can ever show up with powers never before seen and as yet unexplained, because that makes it an 'ass pull'?

[Snipehamster]

"Well, I think that we've pretty much gotten all of physics sorted out
now. Just that pesky ultraviolet catastrophe and a few other small
problems outside the rules, but it's not as if there are entire vast
disciplines that we haven't noticed yet!"

So it's not a case of fitting in with the established rules. It's a case of tossing those rules out the window and saying "haha! the zebras have special rules!"

[Sindri]

And Legate Lanius is just silly; my sniper put four .50 cal rounds through his forehead at relatively close range and he just ran off to go grab some grenades.

And that's one of the many reasons I always run Project Nevada. Take the HP gains away from levelling up and combat becomes a lot more realistic and cerebral instead of devolving into pounding on each other for minutes on end after level 20 because damage stopped scaling up.[/offtopic]

So it's not a case of fitting in with the established rules. It's a case of tossing those rules out the window and saying "haha! the zebras have special rules!"

No rules have been discarded or changed. There is one thing that we haven't seen before, because only Caesar and his Legates would ever use it, and you immediately do an acrobatic fucking pirouette off the handle because it wasn't fully explained and plotted out within a minute of appearing? There are rules. If you observe closely you can figure them out over time, or if Blackjack gets around to asking Sekashi you can get an exposition dump. Would you really rather Vitiosus stop in the middle of combat to deliver a lecture on metaphysics?

[Snipehamster]

No rules have been discarded or changed. There is one thing that we haven't seen before, because only Caesar and his Legates would ever use it, and you immediately do an acrobatic fucking pirouette off the handle because it wasn't fully explained and plotted out within a minute of appearing? There are rules. If you observe closely you can figure them out over time, or if Blackjack gets around to asking Sekashi you can get an exposition dump. Would you really rather Vitiosus stop in the middle of combat to deliver a lecture on metaphysics?

Calm down. If I wanted an exposition dump I could ask Somber for one, and there's no need for you to fly off the handle either. In the end, it doesn't matter what rationalization is put forth for the Legate's powers. Magic is magic. They're simply standard supervillain fare and, frankly, boring.

My point is that PH is locked into the cycle that so many cheesy, overlong animes use. Fight bad guy, almost lose, get stronger, beat bad guy. Fight stronger new bad guy, almost lose, get stronger, beat bad guy, repeat.

I want to read the story of Blackjack, Goldenblood and Project Horizons. Not Dragonball Z(ebra).

[Quotidian]

Okay, I'm awarding style points to Snipe based solely on that last line.

Seriously though, all this conversation got me thinking. (Never a good sign.) The purpose of reading fiction is, presumably, to enjoy yourself. Snipe, your suspension of disbelief was broken by the Legate, so you're not enjoying the read any more.

My question is, what would you do differently? I'm not asking to be passive aggressive. I'm actually curious. How would you have handled the Legate?

[RoboRed]

If I remember correctly, though, she's a bit like RoboRed fiveish pages ago, in that she tends to read through the thread from where she left off and respond to most of what's been going on since then.

May I also note that I actually started on that thing a week after 53 came out?

Ugh..I really need to keep on top of this topic. I kinda stopped because things REALLY slowed down for a while, and I rarely have anything to add to the story speculation in the first place. Or to some of these other conversations.

Or sometimes, I'm just too lazy and would rather spend my time doing something other than debating.

I think the path of the true maiden us to shed all the cyborg tech; to return to a purely biological body and fight without the unnatural augmentation. She'll have to embrace her destiny as the representative of the stars in the sky, accept all their blessings and power as her own, and then she can face the Legate on even terms and finally act as their agent to destroy the Eater.

Full-on alicorn transformation, then?

[Snipehamster]

My question is, what would you do differently? I'm not asking to be
passive aggressive. I'm actually curious. How would you have handled the
Legate?

To be blunt, and with the benefit of hindsight, I wouldn't have included him or the Remnant in the first place. The EoS already has an apocalyptic cult doing its bidding in the Harbingers; their technology fetish grounds them better in the setting, and Dawn gives them an emotional connection with the heroes.

Also in hindsight, I wouldn't have included Lacunae, Psalm, the Goddess, Rainbow Glory or ~90% of the Hightower arc either, but that's beside the point.

Why two cults (okay, the Remnant is only led by a cultist, but close enough) when one could serve the purpose just as well?

[StoneSlinger88]

I'm guessing the Legate wanted an opportunity to speak with BJ without pissing off his legion. Powerful as he his, one of them might know how to take him out. I really can't figure out if they're more loyal to him or his ideas. BJ quite possibly (almost certainly) holds the key to getting past the defenses, and if the Legate kills her, she can't get past them. Her "destiny" might be to get past those defenses in a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy. She wants to, therefore she will, and the Legate needs for that to happen, so he'll allow here to do so.

A second theory that ties into above one: Obviously, he's not quite like Rampage. Rampage can regen from entire disintegration. Vitiosus might not have that ability, and needs BJ to drop Hoofington's defenses before he can do whatever he wants to do.

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