Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Sindri]

Somber you realize you have your own story to write, which has a lot of loose ends? Why do you think you need to "fix" Kkats story instead of working on your own? And by "fix" i mean shoehorn your own characters into every scene of the original, making them responsible for everything, because obviously that's something that needs to be done.

I mean, just look at other Sidefics, they seem to have no need to try and rewrite the very story they based their own on, but create their own worlds.

I fully expect people to disregard me as troll, because i said something that may offend Somber and isn´t Praise. Unfortunately i am obviously retarded, as i think Hugboxing is not a good way to help a author.

Eh, it's a valid view albeit one usually in the minority here, and several people who've been with us for... over a year now? have expressed similar sentiments at times. Honestly the sarcastic self-deprecation, odd capitalization, and passive aggressive barbs aimed at everyone who disagrees with your opinion have more of an effect than your message on my tendency to take you seriously, but I digress. If you read the replies and respond rationally, we will welcome you. If you ignore us and continue tossing insults, we will ignore you.

There are a great many events in Kkat's original story which are left quite vague. Many are seen only through the foggy lens of history. Perhaps they never were relevant enough to Littlepip's quest to merit further investigation. Perhaps Kkat left them intentionally, like the final fate of Rainbow Dash, as a point that not all questions need to be or should be answered within a single tale. Perhaps there simply was not time or opportunity to elaborate on them, without turning the entirety of the story into a mind-numbing exposition dump three times its current length.

But these events happened. And they were perpetrated by individuals or groups thus far unknown. We knew there were dark conspiracies in the power structures of wartime Equestria. Who was responsible for the attempted assassination of Applejack? Why was there never so much as a suspect in the killing of Big Macintosh? These are questions which are not terribly important to Littlepip's journey. But they have answers, even if those are never known. There are people behind these events, and some of them are inevitably connected to each other and to worse horrors which never saw the public eye.

Somber's story is in large part about those conspiracies. The shadows guiding events, for good and for ill, which matter little to one heroic mare hundreds of miles away but which are vital to the survival of another. There is no great and powerful Mary Sue who inserts themself in every major event from the original story, there are dozens or hundreds of individuals and threads between them. Those same individuals were always behind the events, but where Kkat has passed by all but the public knowledge of things Somber has given them names and invented the connections between them.

Should she have? It would be quite unrealistic, a difficult suspension of disbelief, to say that a conspiracy of this size existed in Hoofington but had absolutely no contact with events on the outside. Perhaps a simpler story would be preferable to some, but one of this scope and complexity will by its very nature interweave itself with those adjacent.

Is it a problem that this has happened? You seem to think so. I do not.

[Sindri]

Sindri, you do realize this is not the first time heat has come up right?

Doof raping Twist was the first time.

Yeah, I'm well aware. Was there something I said which implied otherwise?


edit: holy fuck that last post went purple fast. I should really redo that in words a human might use, but nt time now.

[Guest]

Sindri, you do realize this is not the first time heat has come up right?

Doof raping Twist was the first time.

Yeah, I'm well aware. Was there something I said which implied otherwise?


edit: holy fuck that last post went purple fast. I should really redo that in words a human might use, but nt time now.

No matter how lesbian she is, no matter how self controlled she is, her hormones are telling her that she's supposed to be pregnant.

Yeah, this. When Doof approached her about sex she asserted the fact she was a lesbian and nothing would ever happen between them because of it.

[Mr. Snrub]

No, I'm going to dismiss you as a troll because of the manner in which you presented your criticism and the poor grammar which you used to convey it. There is no need to be rude in your expression of displeasure.

Im sorry about my grammar, English isn´t my native language. Also i think i wasn´t really rude in my post, though i may have used sarcasm at one point or the other. It was not clear to me that this is considered rude.

[Sindri]

Yeah, this. When Doof approached her about sex she asserted the fact she was a lesbian and nothing would ever happen between them because of it.

Yes. Because she had those same hormones going off, but enough self-control to not become a rutting animal and she did not want to have sex with him. Glory likewise is not going to have sex with anything that moves, but this combined with the other reasons led to her making a single innocent comment about a certain earther buck.

[Guest]

Sorry about that Sindri, I thought you were implying that heat would override their sexuality.

[O. Hinds]

No, I'm going to dismiss you as a troll because of the manner in which you presented your criticism and the poor grammar which you used to convey it. There is no need to be rude in your expression of displeasure.

Im sorry about my grammar, English isn´t my native language. Also i think i wasn´t really rude in my post, though i may have used sarcasm at one point or the other. It was not clear to me that this is considered rude.

Ah, apologies accepted. Since trolls rarely bother to apologize, it seems likely that this may have been a misunderstanding; for that, I offer my own apology. Welcome to the forum!

[Mr. Snrub]

Who was responsible for the attempted assassination of Applejack?

The other ponys responsible for creating armour-piercing bullets who opposed AJ as far as i remember. Though i may be mistaken as i haven´t read the originall for some time.

Why was there never so much as a suspect in the killing of Big Macintosh?

Because it was a attack on Celestia which failed. Not everything has to be part of a shadowy Conspiracy in my Opinion.

There are people behind these events, and some of them are inevitably connected to each other and to worse horrors which never saw the public eye.

They are only connected in PH because Somber says so

The shadows guiding events, for good and for ill, which matter little to one heroic mare hundreds of miles away but which are vital to the survival of another. There is no great and powerful Mary Sue who inserts themself in every major event from the original story, there are dozens or hundreds of individuals and threads between them.

if im not mistaken there is one great and powerfull Mary Stue behind all this in PH: Goldenblood.

Don´t get me wrong, i don´t want to bash Somber, but want to express that PH would be far better if it concetrated on Blackjack, her many Companions, and the Hoofington of the now instead of trying to be Fallout Equestria 2, the re-written and edited version. There are so many story-arcs in PH itself which Somber seems to forget about or not concentrate enough on so that he can talk more about how Goldenblood was responsible for everything.

[Sindri]

~snop~

In no particular order:

See, if Goldenblood was responsible for everything, even if it was just contained to things Kkat never mentioned, I'd probably call villain sue and get out. But he's not. He's not even involved in over half the things that went down during the end of the war, and most of those he did touch he opposed (often unsuccessfully) or was only involved in the cleanup after events. The rest of the OIA leads often worked separately from or directly against him, Horse had his own schemes, Luna went off to some extent, the zebra had all manner of things going down, Psalm went rogue on her own, Twilight had her own experiments and alter ego, and every event which was given an explanation in Kkat's story (Fluttershy and the megaspells, alicorn research, Rarity and the Black Book, Four Star, etc.) was left as-is. Goldenblood got swept up in a lot of things, and he looked like a mastermind at first glance, but he ended up being all but powerless most of the time on closer examination. Which of course probably means we haven't even met the real chessmaster.

Anyway, in Kkat's story I believe it was an Equestrian AP bullet which killed Macintosh, but the shooter was unnamed; they were assumed by the public to be a zebra sniper but there was always a taste of conspiracy there. As has been explained earlier in the thread, the story given to the public doesn't match up because even a big damn hero like Mac couldn't jump in front of a hypervelocity slug from an unknown direction at an unknown time; he had to have seen it coming and zebra snipers do not allow that.

The ponies directly responsible for the attempt on Applejack were members of the MWT who disliked her policies as Ministry Mare, but who they were, why they did what they did, how far the conspiracy went, etc. were never answered. I offered it simply as an example of wartime equestria being full of shadows and traitors and conspirators in the original, and most of them never being explored.

And the focus of the histories and conspiracies mentioned in Project Horizons have always been within the Hoof, but it strains disbelief to say that there was no contact between the Hoof and the monumental organizations and events mentioned by Kkat. The events which do touch in the stories have never contradicted Kkat's canon or her themes, and have been largely limited in scope, but realistically the only options are to not include big conspiracies in the Hoof (which takes out about 80% of the plot), or to have some contact between them and those in Littlepip's wasteland. The original story has not been rewritten or even significantly altered, it's just had some blanks filled in around the edges.

Does it somehow diminish the original story to know that the one who shot Macintosh named herself Psalm? Does it make his sacrifice less noble that he knew about the shot seconds before it came and stood strong anyway, rather than somehow jumping in as the bullet flew? Does it diminish the horror of a Balefire bomb to know that one of the ponies who researched that technology was named Trottenheimer, or that all he really wanted was to forge better bullets, or that he died by his own hoof and one of his own creations?

[Mr. Snrub]

The events which do touch in the stories have never contradicted Kkat's canon or her themes

When Spike left his cave for Blackjack it contradicted Kkats canon quite hard if you ask me.

[CamoBadger]

Yeah, this. When Doof approached her about sex she asserted the fact she was a lesbian and nothing would ever happen between them because of it.

Yes. Because she had those same hormones going off, but enough self-control to not become a rutting animal and she did not want to have sex with him. Glory likewise is not going to have sex with anything that moves, but this combined with the other reasons led to her making a single innocent comment about a certain earther buck.

You're just trying to ruin my dreams of a P-21/Glory ship aren't you?

[Kippershy]

Yeah, this. When Doof approached her about sex she asserted the fact she was a lesbian and nothing would ever happen between them because of it.

Yes. Because she had those same hormones going off, but enough self-control to not become a rutting animal and she did not want to have sex with him. Glory likewise is not going to have sex with anything that moves, but this combined with the other reasons led to her making a single innocent comment about a certain earther buck.

You're just trying to ruin my dreams of a P-21/Glory ship aren't you?

This would be one hell of a ship. It's possible given P-21's conditioning but I doubt he'd go for it off his own back.

[Guest]

The events which do touch in the stories have never contradicted Kkat's canon or her themes

When Spike left his cave for Blackjack it contradicted Kkats canon quite hard if you ask me.

You're going to need to give me a quote for that, or I'm wont to dismiss it as your own headcanon and nothing more. As far as I can recall, nowhere in the story did it say that Spike never left his own cave before coming to Pip. Characters may or may not have said that (I personally don't recall, hence the request), but characters are no more infallible than a normal person.

[CamoBadger]

This would be one hell of a ship. It's possible given P-21's conditioning but I doubt he'd go for it off his own back.

I anticipate them at least having sex, simply because of Glory going into heat.
inb4homosexual: Hormones win. I'm sorry, but heat causes uncontrollable urges in [i]both[i] genders. For the female because it's their body saying 'time to get pregnant', and for males because they catch that scent and their body instantly says 'time to mount that'. Even though they don't go for the opposite gender, their brains still have that primal mating instinct brought on by heat. So if they happen to be alone when her hormones kick in, it's happening.

*erects flametent and prepares body*

[Guest]

This would be one hell of a ship. It's possible given P-21's conditioning but I doubt he'd go for it off his own back.

I anticipate them at least having sex, simply because of Glory going into heat.
inb4homosexual: Hormones win. I'm sorry, but heat causes uncontrollable urges in [i]both[i] genders. For the female because it's their body saying 'time to get pregnant', and for males because they catch that scent and their body instantly says 'time to mount that'. Even though they don't go for the opposite gender, their brains still have that primal mating instinct brought on by heat. So if they happen to be alone when her hormones kick in, it's happening.

*erects flametent and prepares body*

Camo, Twist was in heat when Doof showed up, hell she was even drinking lowering her inhibitions further. Clearly that's not how heat works in this story.

[Sindri]

The events which do touch in the stories have never contradicted Kkat's canon or her themes

When Spike left his cave for Blackjack it contradicted Kkats canon quite hard if you ask me.

I find myself without a ready reply. I shall review the relevant sections if and when I find the opportunity, and in the meantime declare first blood to the newcomer (and hand things over to OAC for a bit).

Welcome to our little corner of the wasteland! You'll fit right in or be warped accordingly soon enough. Please attempt to time any applicable mental breakdowns to not line up with those of out current inmates; we're all mad here but things get troublesome when they start piling up. Off-topic chat and socialization is over here, there are a variety of roleplays and discussions of other fics which you'll have to ask somebody else about, and the rest of the forums provide sporadic amusement in a variety of directions but many of us try not to swarm them too much because the forum was here before Project Horizons was and it might be rude to totally subvert all of their prior structures and practices.

You're just trying to ruin my dreams of a P-21/Glory ship aren't you?

Nah, I still think it's plausible. Maybe. In the distant future. I think the most probable scenario if they all somehow manage to survive this story would be Blackjack and Glory as a couple with P-21 as their best friend and genetic father of their children, with a full polyamorous OT3 slightly less probable, and everything ending in pain and despair being the most likely option by a wide margin. This is the Hoof after all.

I anticipate them at least having sex, simply because of Glory going into heat.
inb4homosexual: Hormones win. I'm sorry, but heat causes uncontrollable urges in [i]both[i] genders. For the female because it's their body saying 'time to get pregnant', and for males because they catch that scent and their body instantly says 'time to mount that'. Even though they don't go for the opposite gender, their brains still have that primal mating instinct brought on by heat. So if they happen to be alone when her hormones kick in, it's happening.

*erects flametent and prepares body*

Nope. In a sentient, free-willed creature hormones are an influence but not a mandate. If you were right, literally every human would have sex by age 18, and every woman would be pregnant by 30. It's just not true. The hormones give her the urge to reproduce regardless of her actual preferences, and the smell would tend to arouse males in the area, but neither removes will or choice.

[CamoBadger]

*adds 'Hormones' to list of things to ignore in stories, right below 'Injuries'*

Alright then, I'll just be on my way. Have a good day everyone, and please ignore my little rant.

[Guest]

“Magically augmented and designed by the M.W.T. and M.A.S. for unicorn snipers. It’s a prototype and, given all the fuss it requires, probably won’t be put in production soon. "

This is a little strange. Wasn't the M.W.T very upset when AJ announced they were going to be working with the M.A.S on armor for earth ponies? (What I mean by that is the armor was for their people and they still were far from excited to work with them.)

And that was after a hero of theirs had died. I can't imagine them wanting to build a gun for unicorns.

[Moodyman90]

Something that's been bugging me.

In the original it's stated that Big Mac took a bullet for Celestia. I had always pictured it as during the peace talks a zebra pulled a gun and Big Mac got between the shooter and Celestia before the zebra fired.


But then... even in the original story it's stated that the zebras were willing to talk to Celestia, but not Luna. Xenith told Littlepip that it was suppose to be Luna at the peace talks, not Celestia, but there was still an attack. Despite the fact that the best chance anyone had for the war to end would be for Celestia to stop it because all killing Celestia would do would make sure that Luna remained in power and continued the war.

Then there's the fact they keep saying "sniper". As in a long range, hidden, "I hope I can make this shot and get out undetected" kill. So... unless Big Mac saw the far off glint of light off the scope or was informed beforehand there was a sniper they couldn't intercept in time, either Big Mac's death was due to standing in the right place at the right time (which really would ruin the meaning behind his death) or Celestia wasn't the target, Big Mac was for whatever reason.

I'm not trying to justify Somber's decision, but quite honestly it makes no damn sense for the Zebras to try to kill Celestia, even if it was suppose to be Luna at the peace talk, unless there was a conspiracy on either the zebra's or pony's side to take Celestia out of the picture so the war could continue.

That, and this in support of Somber, somebody made the call that Celestia should remain out of the zebra's hooves by any means necessary and Big Mac didn't agree with that decision.
With that in mind, while it could have been done better, Somber made a tragic moment in the war even more tragic by how unnecessary Big Mac's death was.

[Sindri]

Nobody's trying to say they don't have an influence; we've already seen it in Glory's speech patterns and Doof's actions. As things build I'd say there's at least like, a 10% chance of P-21 and Glory boning? Maybe 12%? But even nonsentient animals don't drop everything and become stupid suicidal (with a few notable exceptions, mostly fish and insects), and in sophonts there's even less of a compulsion.

You realize that humans have pheromones too, right? And that as a woman goes through her menstrual cycle, her hormones not only make her see men as more attractive, but puts out chemicals that make any man within several meters thing the same thing about her?

Anyway, if it was as much a compulsion as you're saying, there would be no concept of rape in pony society because every mare would spend a month compelled to bone every stallion in the area, and they would be just as compelled to reciprocate.

Your argument sounds less like logic and more like porn, is the gist of what I'm saying.


***My bad, my bad. 'Quote' and 'Edit' buttons are right next to each other. Not trying to be a dick, just distracted***

[Guest]

Which is both why it isn't going into major production for a while, and why the prototype was in the hooves of the Office of Interministry Affairs. The whole point of Goldy and his organization was to act as go-between for six ministries that don't want to work together and trick them into actually getting shit done.

Ah, I misunderstood what she meant by fuss. Thought she meant the weapon was difficult to maintain or fire or something.

[Sindri]

Which is both why it isn't going into major production for a while, and why the prototype was in the hooves of the Office of Interministry Affairs. The whole point of Goldy and his organization was to act as go-between for six ministries that don't want to work together and trick them into actually getting shit done.

Ah, I misunderstood what she meant by fuss. Thought she meant the weapon was difficult to maintain or fire or something.

It's probably expensive as all hell too, but this seemed like the best explanation for why a weapon made by two ministries that don't like to work together would exist and be given to Goldy's sniper friend. We do know that they were making talisman-enhanced AM rifles later in the war (Spitfire's Thunder) but those would be after power armor, when apparently MAS and MWT were getting along better. Psalm just happened to be in the perfect position to be testing a prototype of the concept.

[Guest]

Was the AM rifle a collaboration between the two ministries? I recall a majority of the work was done by Ironshod. (That was Braeburn's company right?)

AJ all but disowned Braeburn for their creation, I think she'd have more say on it if it were a collaboration.

[CamoBadger]

@Human Pheromones: Last I heard, there is still argument if humans have any pheromones at all.

@Heat: Ever tried to keep a male dog away from a bitch in heat? They DO lose control. They break crates, tear through doors, jump fences, anything they can to get to the female. That's how heat works. They can't think of anything else.

[Sindri]

@Moodyman90

You almost got the point. Luna was supposed to be at the conference, and the zebra were supposed to kill her. The Zebra were NEVER there to negotiate.
If they had been, they definitely would have spoken with Celestia.

The trap was just set up sans any means to abort it when the wrong princess was in the tent.

The silly parts of my brain like to imagine that the zebra hit team were waiting there in the tunnel, and
"Well, that doesn't look like nightmare moon"
"Yeah, I think that's the other princess, whatsername... Celestia? Anyway, evil one's sister."
"Huh. I don't think we're supposed to kill this one."
"You said sister right? Maybe if we capture her we can get a ransom or something? Maybe even get them to surrender, if the diplomats don't fuck things up."
"Well, we are already here, and Caesar's expecting something..."
"Oh shit, was that the gas trap going off?"
"You rigged that on a timer? I thought it was a remote!"
"Fuck. We're dead if we just stay in this ditch; the ponies are gonna scour the whole valley. I don't know what we're doing but we're doing it. Move, people!"

[Moodyman90]

But "Luna was suppose to be the one there" came from Xenith, 200 years after the event, lived near the remains of a zebra prison camp in the heart of Equestria, only connection to the homeland being traditions passed down through story, and who's ancestors probably only heard about the assassination attempt after the fact.
"It doesn't make sense they would try to kill Celstia, they must have expected Luna."

And unless my memory is faulty, which is probably is, it was never stated Luna was going to the peace talks. Celestia was always the one to push for them, and zebra spies would have informed them which princess was going to show up.

[Mr. Snrub]

When Spike left his cave for Blackjack it contradicted Kkats canon quite hard if you ask me.

You're going to need to give me a quote for that, or I'm wont to dismiss it as your own headcanon and nothing more. As far as I can recall, nowhere in the story did it say that Spike never left his own cave before coming to Pip. Characters may or may not have said that (I personally don't recall, hence the request), but characters are no more infallible than a normal person.[/quote]


Here you go, directly from the original :

“Twilight Sparkle entrusted you with the Element of Magic, didn’t she?”



“She entrusted me with all of this,” Spike answered. “I can’t leave. If a band of raiders should make their way into this place while I’m gone… or worse, a troop of Steel Rangers…”



He didn’t need to say anything more.



“I can’t take the risk that someone might damage or destroy this,” Spike said anyway. “I have to stay here. Keep guard. Until I can find the right ponies.”

Thats why i found it quite stupid that he broke his own rules for Blackjack, even Little Pip had to fly up there herself.


Well, thanks for the warm welcome, but i think im out for today. Have a nice day.

[Sindri]

@Human Pheromones: Last I heard, there is still argument if humans have any pheromones at all.

@Heat: Ever tried to keep a male dog away from a bitch in heat? They DO lose control. They break crates, tear through doors, jump fences, anything they can to get to the female. That's how heat works. They can't think of anything else.

Oh, it's pretty well confirmed. The questions now are mostly about whether it's entirely olfactory or if we absorb them through our skin too.

And dogs are stupid; a domesticated canine has pretty much no impulse control, creativity, or independent drive. They make such good tools and are so easy to train because of that stupidity. Even a wolf can resist that urge when their life is in danger, but dogs have been pretty much bred to be slaves to their impulses because it makes conditioning them to do tricks so much easier.
Ponies are not stupid, or uncontrolled. If it was a compulsion then Twist would have been after Doof, not the other way around, and again rape would simply not be in their lexicon.

Was the AM rifle a collaboration between the two ministries? I recall a majority of the work was done by Ironshod. (That was Braeburn's company right?)

AJ all but disowned Braeburn for their creation, I think she'd have more say on it if it were a collaboration.

I think the AM rifle was Ironshod and maybe MWT. There's no magic there, just a really big gun. Spitfire's thunder started with an AM rifle design, but added talismans to nullify recoil so that a flier could use it, and to me that seems to indicate MAS though it could all be done by independents.

[CamoBadger]

@Human Pheromones: Last I heard, there is still argument if humans have any pheromones at all.

@Heat: Ever tried to keep a male dog away from a bitch in heat? They DO lose control. They break crates, tear through doors, jump fences, anything they can to get to the female. That's how heat works. They can't think of anything else.

Oh, it's pretty well confirmed. The questions now are mostly about whether it's entirely olfactory or if we absorb them through our skin too.

And dogs are stupid; a domesticated canine has pretty much no impulse control, creativity, or independent drive. They make such good tools and are so easy to train because of that stupidity. Even a wolf can resist that urge when their life is in danger, but dogs have been pretty much bred to be slaves to their impulses because it makes conditioning them to do tricks so much easier.
Ponies are not stupid, or uncontrolled. If it was a compulsion then Twist would have been after Doof, not the other way around, and again rape would simply not be in their lexicon.

Actually, dogs listen to us so well because they have evolved to understand and live alongside humans over the millions of years since we were introduced. Studies show that they read facial expressions the same way humans do; they understand basic gestures at birth; their faces have changed to be more appealing and human; and when a human pets a dog, both the human and the dog generate the same mental patterns and chemical dispersal of a mother with a newborn child.
From our side, studies have shown that humans are capable of understanding dogs to a level as well; we can tell what different barks are saying (warnings, asking for something, playful, etc).
So we have evolved to live with each other.

Don't call them stupid or slaves, because dogs want to be around us as much as we want to be around them.

Holy crap that was a random tangent.
Anyways, I'll just reiterate: I was wrong, I was using real-world logic, I will stop and go away now because obviously I don't know what I'm talking about.

[O. Hinds]

Here you go, directly from the original :

“Twilight Sparkle entrusted you with the Element of Magic, didn’t she?”



“She entrusted me with all of this,” Spike answered. “I can’t leave. If a band of raiders should make their way into this place while I’m gone… or worse, a troop of Steel Rangers…”



He didn’t need to say anything more.



“I can’t take the risk that someone might damage or destroy this,” Spike said anyway. “I have to stay here. Keep guard. Until I can find the right ponies.”

Thats why i found it quite stupid that he broke his own rules for Blackjack, even Little Pip had to fly up there herself.


Well, thanks for the warm welcome, but i think im out for today. Have a nice day.

I interpret that about being for an extended absence (a day or more, in this case). And Spike was anxious in PH about leaving even for the short time it took to collect Blackjack.

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