Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Harmony Ltd.]

Tl:dr; They were all epic failures as leaders of the country and the only one that didn't completely mess up was applejack.

That's pretty much the morale of the story so far.

[CannonFodder]

Tl:dr; They were all epic failures as leaders of the country and the only one that didn't completely mess up was applejack.

That's pretty much the morale of the story so far.

If they were so obsessed about stopping the war they could have just freed discord or assassinate fluttershy by a crazy pony who is afraid fluttershy would stop the war. Just be like "here's a gun we don't want fluttershy to start peace talks with those zebras and surrender when you are arrested so those zebra lovers can hear your voice against their treachery". Then when she dies pro-war sentiment would become instantly extremely unpopular and bye bye to the racism as well.

[SilentCarto]

You're assuming it was a cloaked zebra. That theory immediately falls through the floor with basic physics. THAT close to the vats and there would be nothing left from a megaspell detonation. While the crater at maripony means they got extremely close they did not thread the needle. Maripony was designed to withstand a megaspell even if it was that close, otherwise there would be nothing left. If when the first bomb went off it had hit directly on top of maripony chances are there would be nothing left. Basically what I'm getting at is if you want to level a base capable of withstanding a nuclear strike then you drop the bomb RIGHT on top of it, not close enough, not enough to kill everyone, but RIGHT on top of the building.

There was no surface detonation at Maripony. It was not a missile attack, but a planted bomb. We know that for a fact. Most likely, it was smuggled in and planted in almost exactly the same way that Xenith planted Silver Bell's "fireworks" under the Goddess. In fact, it was probably identical to that device.

I want to emphasize that I didn't say the zebra had the bomb on her, nor did I say that the zebra was in the same room with Trixie. The test was all being monitored by multiple cameras, which were all visible from security stations like the one where the Goddess showed Littlepip the video of her creation. The bomber could have been watching from practically anywhere in the complex.

Edit: Oh, right, I forgot the other reason the zebras were on the verge of losing. The SPP, once active, would create an impenetrable barrier to atmospheric cruise missiles. One pegasus could swat every missile out of the air with lightning and tornadoes and consider it a break from calculating what crops to grow where and how much rainfall to give Manehattan. If they didn't strike soon, they would be unable to respond to an Equestrian megaspell strike.

There is another problem with your theory SilentCarto
FoE explicitly states it was a balefire missile that took out Maripony and we see the giant surface crater above the labs.

That's exactly the opposite of what it explicitly states.
A sinkhole several miles across indicated where the balefire bomb had been detonated. The bomb had been snuck in underground and detonated. The surface above had collapsed into the toxin-filled tunnels below. Over the last two hundered years, the sinkhole had weathered and eroded into a wide crater. It glowed faintly, even in the daylight. It was marked with hundreds of holes. --FOE, chapter 29

I'll grant that it was well-known as a MAS test lab, but the timing indicates that they knew what was happening and when, well in advance.

As for SilentCarto's theory, it's clear from Blackjack's dreams of Psalm that it was ponies who fired the first megaspells.

It's not that clear-cut as all that. We know Garnet tried to get Jetstream to sneak what she claimed was a targeting talisman into Roam, but we don't know whether she succeeded and we only have the word of a proved liar as to what the talisman really was. We know that someone attacked the museum to steal the meteors there, but it's not clear who they were working for and we don't know whether "half an hour till showtime" was talking about the war or Partypooper. Psalm's dreams indicate that Garnet knew something was about to happen, but then again, the OIA would have been in a good position to get advance word of the Zebras fueling their missiles and moving their civilian populations into shelters.

If you can put together a coherent line of evidence that ponies launched the first strike, I'd like to hear it, but as far as I know, it's all based on vague, ambiguous statements and supposition.

I think a big part of that is going to be the "why" of Partypooper, and we have no inkling of that yet. Is it to deliberately invoke Project Horizon's fail-deadly, an attempt to supplant the Ministry Mares with the OIA's Gem Ponies, a plot to make Horse the eminence gris, or something more arcane?

[O. Hinds]

Early Chapter editing:

Ah, thank you.

The Zebra were in a mindset such that it didn't matter if they lost

Ahem. I would like to point out that the phrase "pyrrhic victory" still includes the word "victory".


I'm sorry that I've not been able to be more involved in this conversation, but I've had a lot of work to do today.

[jacky2734]

Nearly two years of the Fallout: Equestria universe and people are still debating the little useless details like how the missiles work, who fired first, and what Butterfly farted to set the whole damn thing in motion.

It's a story about a fictional time in a fictional world in a fictional universe where the laws of physics are whatever the Author(Who's word, by the way, is the only one that matters) wants them to be.

To paraphrase the MST3K Mantra: It's just a story, we should really just relax and enjoy it.

...

Sorry, I'm just not a huge fan of deconstructing the little details of a story to the point where it's no longer enjoyable.

[Caoimhe]

When there's not much to talk about, people get into details. Some of this overanalyzes leads to great things like Hinds/Carto's map (I still cant remember who did more work).

[Cptadder]

...

Sorry, I'm just not a huge fan of deconstructing the little details of a story to the point where it's no longer enjoyable.

....but that's kind of our thing here. That's what this entire thread is for over analyzing the shit out of the little things in between bouts of chapter discussion. It's literally our purpose for being. Sorry Jacky but you just wandered down to the National Hockey League offices and ask them to knock it off with the fighting. Sure the game is technically about hitting the little black puck around a frozen rink but we don't go to games to watch it for only the scoring and plays. Much like NASCAR fans are not just in it to see a bunch of cars go around and around for three hours very fast. They watch because when a bunch of cars go very fast around a track very exciting and very violent things tend to happen. And the beer flows like water for those dull bits between... much like Hockey games come to think of it.

Did I get lost in my own comparison? Perhaps I did, either way in the morning I shall wake up, walk the dog, take a shower. And then dear reader I shall explain on why trying to engineer invisible tactical bale fire bombs to evade countermeasures that don't exist yet makes no sense compared with simply building more bombs to get some through. It's a fun fact of the hard economics of cold warfare with nukes. Decoys, sheathing, armoring and the like all makes missiles heavier meaning shorter range or bigger missiles and the cost benefit showed 1 war head + 3 decoys was no more cost effective than 4 war heads and 0 decoys because the expensive thing was not the nuke itself but the missile carrying it to it's target. One of the amusing bits of war was exactly how cost effective the plain jane air dropped nukes were. The second amusing thing was, to make effective looking decoys they had to have the weight and IR reflective signature. Meaning they had to be made out of very heavy and very dense materials which happen to be the exact same materials we use to build real missile nosecones.

That's exactly the opposite of what it explicitly states.

So it is, conceded my memory is borked it seems.

[Icy Shake]

Cannon : to echo what OAC said, why do you think the Zebra were getting so desperate in the war ? Xanthe said it herself to BlackJack : around the time the megaspells hit, the Zebra estimated that already only 10% I think of the bombs they were preparing to launch would hit, and they estimated that in a few years, this number would be dropping to 1%, and would continue to fall as time went on.

Equestria WAS developing such a missile shield, and that's why everything went to shit : The Zebra were in a mindset such that it didn't matter if they lost, as long as Equestria wasn't turned to a pile of glowing rubble, just to ensure that Nightmare Moon wouldn't conquer the rest of the world.

For them, it was now or never.

Of course, it was Equestria that shot first. But given a few weeks or month more, it's more or less certain the Zebras would have launched an attack.

Equestria did have the technology for
such a laser defense network, at least in the beta stages. They were
probably planning on rolling out the systems in Hoofington to other
strategic locations. The zebras just launched armageddon first. Defense
systems like that don't just appear at the drop of the hat, though, and
the zebras evidently took advantage of that timing window.

That's exactly what I am getting at. Their technology was in the beta stages and hoofington did have defences. HOWEVER equestria was so caught up in from a military standpoint tactically stupid projects. The only one of the mane6 to actually do projects and use their ministry in a not completely stupid manner was applejack.

From a tactical standpoint it's stupid to sacrifice thousands of pony souls just to power one phoenix talisman. How were they even going to realistically mass produce enough phoenix talismans to actually matter in a war? Were they just going to cart any and all ponies in prison even if it was something like petty theft and use them for the phoenix talismans? For the phoenix talisman project to be worth it monetarily they would have to not only use every last prisoner in the prison system, but every last zebra, sick or elderly pony to make enough for it to effect the war effort.

Well, here you're making the mistake of judging Rarity's ministry on one side project it was doing, that wasn't primarily intended for battlefield use anyway, but for the specific purpose of protecting the Ministry Mares (and maybe a few other people). Rarity's ministry, as the propaganda ministry, seems to have been pretty good at what it did; most of Equestria was still in it even after two decades, including a decade of heavy warfare.

Project Chimera yes it would be a tactical advantage and be worth the money, BUT if the general populace learned they were doing that everyone would lose their shit and call them abominations. The only way you could get away with that without having hundreds of thousands of angry protesters with pitch forks and torches outside your labs calling for your beheading is if you made the soldiers still look like ponies.

I'll give you the PR nightmare, but with the right people and the right spin you might be able to get it to fly, especially if you have potential to reverse the processes.

I know it's not a project, but trotteinheimer's folly is the ultimate example of "not a smart move" when it comes to weaponry.

Really? It seems pretty effective, and with some slight modifications (integrated self-destruct, for instance), it could have been used to good effect. You just need somepony to volunteer for a suicide mission, and to get them to where they need to be. And wasn't it the end result of Project Starfall?

Megaspells in general were a example of a bad idea and fluttershy was naive. . . Wait, scratch that. She knew it would have been used to make bombs and developed it any ways. That's even worse than naive.

The initial implementation of the healing megaspell was botched as hell. Fluttershy had no business designing it and rolling it out in that form; moreover, that's a great example of OIA failing miserably in its coordination role. But as far as I can remember, nothing has indicated that Fluttershy really had any idea that they would be used as weapons--her whole concept was that by making killing impossible (not merely too costly), both sides would have to come to a negotiated peace.

And, of course, the MoP was very effective at its primary role as the healers of the nation, and in conjunction with Science and Technology created some good toys in addition to the megaspells.

With alicorns if it weren't for the goddess becoming a alicorn would just boost their already abilities. Like how the twins were physic. Twilight used a massive number of spells, but her calling card was teleportation which is why some alicorns could teleport. However what I'm getting at is what use from a tactical standpoint is a alicorn who's special talent is making quills and sofas?

I just don't know where this is coming from. FoE has versatile unicorns--they aren't limited to special-talent-relevant tricks (except for Blackjack and Littlepip, who aren't even good examples since each learned spells beyond TK over time). So I just don't see where this is coming from, especially since the alicorn shield, buffed TK, flight, and regeneration are all included.

What I'm getting at is the only one of the mane6 that had any business whatsoever being a ministry mare was applejack. She didn't make phoenix talismans that require hundreds of souls, she didn't make alicorns that require being connected to a hivemind to be of any use militarily, she didn't make megaspells thinking "oh dear those nice little weaponry manufacturers wouldn't use a overkill spell matrix to use it to kill anyone cause I wink my eyes and speak in a kind tone asking them nicely to not use it as a weapon".

Twilight: Gardens, Celestia One, Alicorns (that would be quite effective sans hivemind, thanks), city shields, stealth tech.
Fluttershy: A hospital and field medic system that seems to have been highly effective. Also made a ludicrously bad call in leaking megaspells to the Zebras.
Rarity: Ran a good propaganda and information network. Had side projects unrelated to the real war effort.
Rainbow Dash: Spent part of her time in active duty military roles, but also ran covert ops which we mostly don't know too much about. I'm going to give her some credit on that end, and note that the SPP was actually a great idea, and turned out to be better than she realized.
Pinkie Pie: Got way overzealous and lost control of her ministry (an interesting combination, I know). I'm not the best person to defend her, since I just don't like her. But it seems to me like her ministry often (at least sometimes) did a good job of rooting out Zebra sympathizers and saboteurs.
Applejack: In over her head, where most of what she was doing was selecting which private firms to fund to achieve state goals. When she did decide to do something herself, she got overattached and tried to shut down all anti-machine rifle production even though heavy robots were an important part of the enemy forces.

Now, I'm not going to say that everyone was great all the time (or that Applejack was particularly bad--certainly not worse than Pinkie); they obviously made numerous mistakes, and much of what they did was fundamentally misguided. But judging them (as administrators) on side projects rather than primarily on the actual focus of the agencies they ran isn't all that fair.

Why do you think we don't use rayguns or other science fiction like weaponry in real war? If we threw enough money to develop it after a couple decades we could make all sorts of science fiction like weaponry, it's just not realistically tactical and not worth the money. We could have autonomous tanks rolling around. We could have terminators on the battlefield instead of humans. The short version is there's a difference between technologically flashy things that look cool and draw attention like jingling keys in front of a child, and then there's things that actually work.

They focused so much on quick cool looking things with flare and no real tactical advantage when they could have focused on real weaponry and would have won the war instead.

Look, comparing Equestria and Earth isn't really going to work that well. And I'd like to point out that the Predator is some pretty cool sci-fi. So are the experimental rail gun ships the Navy is working on. And GPS. Much of the way things work is that we throw a bunch of time and money and effort into making cool stuff and sort out what's useful and what's not afterwards. And what's practical in our situation might not match perfectly to what's practical in the magical land of Equestria.

We don't perfectly know the situation on the ground in wartime Equestria. If labor was their key limiting factor (and considering they were chronically short pegasi and unicorns, I'm not about to toss that idea out without cause) then applying as much technology and capital to each pony on the ground or in the air makes perfect sense. Ray guns are a logical choice for aerial fighters if they offer a better damage/weight ratio, or damage/recoil ratio, than firearms, considering the differences between airplanes and pegasi. And do remember that many of the Projects were made to solve a specific problem, and tended to do that successfully: SPP did enable a singe pony to control Equestria's weather; the alicorn project made super soldiers, even absent the Goddess; Celestia One worked, under its ludicrously limited conditions (which Twilight blew a gasket over); the Steel Ranger armor does greatly reduce vulnerability to most ordinance.

Even if the bombs didn't drop chances are twilight would have failed to make alicorns into super soldiers like she hoped. The only reason why the alicorns in fallout equestria are of any use is they are connected to the goddess. [I just plain disagree here.] Even if the bombs didn't drop them rarity would have failed to make immortal armor able to stop everything in enough quantities to be of use. [It was primarily meant for herself and her friends.] Even if the bombs didn't drop fluttershy would have failed in making a megaspell incapable of stopping death. [That wasn't really her goal; that sounds more like Rarity. She just wanted to make fighting ineffective.] Even if the bombs didn't drop the utter cost of the SPP would have had Rainbow answering some pretty tough questions in front of court on whether or not she misappropriated her ministries' funds and would probably have been shipped off to prison as a scape goat. [Wrong. It would have freed up an important segment of specialized labor for the war effort, as well as given complete air superiority in Equestrian airspace.]

Even if the bombs didn't drop pinkie pie would be getting asked some pretty tough questions about her spying on everyone and probably be shipped off to prison as well. [Maybe, but that usually only happens to war criminals on the losing side.] Celestia could have at ANY moment kicked luna off the throne, become ruler again and began peace talks.Luna knew she was the zebra equivalent of satan and knew she could have just stepped down at any moment and peace talks would have begun. [Maybe later on. She seemed shockingly ill-informed on that matter. In any case, she had no confidence in Celestia, and the Zebras may well have thought such a move to be a ruse anyway.] Goldenblood knew what was going to happen to the very minutest detail and he didn't stop it. He was all like, "go right ahead" he was the ultimate doormat. He knew the world would end and did he do anything? Nope. [We've yet to see the end of his story.]

Tl:dr; They were all epic failures as leaders of the country and the only one that didn't completely mess up was applejack.

TL;DR: They were a mixed bag of great success, meaningful failures, and often entirely misguided efforts. Applejack had her failings as well.

Tl:dr; They were all epic failures as leaders of the country and the only one that didn't completely mess up was applejack.

That's pretty much the morale of the story so far.

If they were so obsessed about stopping the war they could have just freed discord or assassinate fluttershy by a crazy pony who is afraid fluttershy would stop the war. Just be like "here's a gun we don't want fluttershy to start peace talks with those zebras and surrender when you are arrested so those zebra lovers can hear your voice against their treachery". Then when she dies pro-war sentiment would become instantly extremely unpopular and bye bye to the racism as well.

Who would do this, and when? OIA? And who would free Discord to end the war? That seems like a bigger failure in logic than Fluttershy's. Maybe the assassination would work; maybe it wouldn't. Even with the Ministry Mares stepping down, most of the infrastructure would stay in place. MWT would be fine without Applejack, if perhaps a little more corrupt. MOA could probably continue to operate, as could Image and Morale (though Morale would probably drop the actual morale parts). Science would probably depend on whether Gestalt and Mosaic stuck around. Peace would have the biggest problems, but given some more resources and focus on its core mission, it could probably manage to pull through.

On the other hand, if you were thinking of OIA pulling this, then yes--everything could well fall apart. But I don't think that this, of itself, would entirely destroy morale or the cohesiveness of the war machine.

[Guest]

@swicked
Blargh, I forget... I don't think Goldenblood and the OIA were immediately a thing once Luna came to power, like it had been planned out, and I definitely expect their reach and responsibilities expanded over time. They certainly couldn't have been as much of a global clusterfuck at the beginning as they were by the end. (One hopes!)

[CannonFodder]

Really? It seems pretty effective, and with some slight modifications (integrated self-destruct, for instance), it could have been used to good effect. You just need somepony to volunteer for a suicide mission, and to get them to where they need to be. And wasn't it the end result of Project Starfall?

The initial implementation of the healing megaspell was botched as hell. Fluttershy had no business designing it and rolling it out in that form; moreover, that's a great example of OIA failing miserably in its coordination role. But as far as I can remember, nothing has indicated that Fluttershy really had any idea that they would be used as weapons--her whole concept was that by making killing impossible (not merely too costly), both sides would have to come to a negotiated peace..

[It was primarily meant for herself and her friends.]

Who would do this, and when? OIA? And who would free Discord to end the war?

Asking soldiers to commit suicide bombings is a PR nightmare unless it's for religious reasons and back then ponies didn't think of the princesses as goddesses so yes it would be a PR nightmare.

Then Fluttershy was naive.

The number of souls required to make a phoenix talisman would have made Rarity a war criminal. Sacrificing thousands of souls to make them would not go unnoticed. Even during the war ponies were starting to notice the mysterious deaths. If a phoenix talisman requires so many souls that even during war times and having a lid on any and all information you can't keep people from noticing then what's going to happen when peace happens? The only way project eternity would not have been eventually discovered is if all the materials relevant to it was destroyed and all those involved were shot. Even if it was just for her friends the general public would have found out eventually.

Easy, Discord never killed anyone.

[Guest]

@Cannon Re: Rarity
Wasn't Rarity working on trimming pieces off souls rather than actually killing the ponies, only the process wasn't working correctly? I may be misremembering this.

[CannonFodder]

@Cannon Re: Rarity
Wasn't Rarity working on trimming pieces off souls rather than actually killing the ponies, only the process wasn't working correctly? I may be misremembering this.

She was working on trying to trim pieces of souls to save the pony, but the phoenix talisman works by trapping the pony's soul inside the talisman. The reason why the phoenix talisman was working before it was canned was because they lost it. When they lost it who knows how many souls it trapped inside. The more souls it trapped inside the more powerful it became. Imagine the cost on the black market for buying such a item, and not knowing it traps your soul. If you had the phoenix talisman chances are ponies would be out to kill you and take it. Fluttershy heard reports of ponies taking much longer to die than what it normally takes. It would not surprise me if the crash that caused the pony carrying it to burn for hours and thus get rarity's attention was not actually a accident. Imagine the price on any pony's head if they had the talisman?

[FeatherDust]

In any case, don't soul jars cause souls to be expended to power them? I think even with (6?) souls Rampage would wind down eventually.

Maybe not.
We have never seen an expended soul jar. Theoretically, it would spend energy every time the device is used or damage would be done to it. Yet even very old jars like the black book show no real sign of slowing down.

So either souls contain a vast amount of power and well eventually degrade after eons in a jar, which is possible, or they generate power. This is my preferred theory.

The Phoenix talisman is my evidence here. With few souls inside it, it did not burn them out and destroy them, but rather the healing effect was weak. Adding souls increased the total power available to it and the effect became stronger.

This works if you assume magic is not created by the magic user at the time of casting, but rather an energy field created and sustained by life which a magic user can tap into with an act of will. Some magic users don't do it consciously, like pegasi or dragons, while others do, like unicorns.

Thus a soul jar uses the contained soul as a conduit into that field; each soul would have a maximum capacity (in a per second sense). With six souls in the talisman, you can get a healing effect similar to six unicorns casting healing magic in concert.

[CannonFodder]

In any case, don't soul jars cause souls to be expended to power them? I think even with (6?) souls Rampage would wind down eventually.

Maybe not.
We have never seen an expended soul jar. Theoretically, it would spend energy every time the device is used or damage would be done to it. Yet even very old jars like the black book show no real sign of slowing down.

So either souls contain a vast amount of power and well eventually degrade after eons in a jar, which is possible, or they generate power. This is my preferred theory.

The Phoenix talisman is my evidence here. With few souls inside it, it did not burn them out and destroy them, but rather the healing effect was weak. Adding souls increased the total power available to it and the effect became stronger.

This works if you assume magic is not created by the magic user at the time of casting, but rather an energy field created and sustained by life which a magic user can tap into with an act of will. Some magic users don't do it consciously, like pegasi or dragons, while others do, like unicorns.

Thus a soul jar uses the contained soul as a conduit into that field; each soul would have a maximum capacity (in a per second sense). With six souls in the talisman, you can get a healing effect similar to six unicorns casting healing magic in concert.

But there's the interesting question of what happens when you combine a healing talisman with a megaspell?

[AGurdel]

Why do you think we don't use rayguns or other science fiction like weaponry in real war?

Because "real war" is neither fought in Equestria nor in the Fallout universe.

I think some of you are forgetting that a lot of the story isn't
equestrian in origin, but part of Fallout. Twilight didn't create the
Alicorns because she thought it was a good idea. She (or somepony else)
had to, so we have an equivalent to the whole Super
Mutant/Master/Unity/Mariposa/CotC part of Fallout 1. That btw is
something I'm missing a bit in Project Horizons, its less Fallout than
the original FoE, or at least I dont see as much connections to the
Fallout Universe. Or maybe all references are from New Vegas, which I am not really familiar with.

[tylertoon2]

Why do you think we don't use rayguns or other science fiction like weaponry in real war?

Because "real war" is neither fought in Equestria nor in the Fallout universe.

I think some of you are forgetting that a lot of the story isn't
equestrian in origin, but part of Fallout. Twilight didn't create the
Alicorns because she thought it was a good idea. She (or somepony else)
had to, so we have an equivalent to the whole Super
Mutant/Master/Unity/Mariposa/CotC part of Fallout 1. That btw is
something I'm missing a bit in Project Horizons, its less Fallout than
the original FoE, or at least I dont see as much connections to the
Fallout Universe. Or maybe all references are from New Vegas, which I am not really familiar with.

Unrelated. But Welcome to the Forum!

[Moodyman90]

First of all, happy to see a new face here. Welcome AGurdel.

And as for your point, the original Fallout Equatria pretty much was Fallout 3 with major story elements of Fallout 1 and 2, but with ponies.

Project Horizons on the other hand is basically an original story built around the lore FoE created. Any elements of the actual Fallout games are either borrowed parts from FoE or I've missed them completely, but nothing off the top of my head from the story draws parallels from New Vegas.

[Ketchup]

I don't consider FO:E or PH to really be based on the Fallout games storywise, and the setting stands well enough on its own.

[AGurdel]

There are some parts of New Vegas in FoE and Horizons. Caesar's Legion was first introduced in NV and there are some parallels between the Platinum Chip and EC-1101. Although I think, that I am only seeing that similarity because I want to see it.

I don't consider FO:E or PH to really be based on the Fallout games storywise,

Not based on the Fallout games? FO:E clearly is based on Fallout 3 rules. SATS, lockpicking and hacking (to name a few things) are copied one to one and some places and events are copied or at least inspired by the games. Its less true for PH, as the strongest connection is FO:E (as Moodyman said), but the games still have a indirect influence on it.

[Ketchup]

I don't consider FO:E or PH to really be based on the Fallout games storywise,

Not based on the Fallout games? FO:E clearly is based on Fallout 3 rules. SATS, lockpicking and hacking (to name a few things) are copied one to one and some places and events are copied or at least inspired by the games. Its less true for PH, as the strongest connection is FO:E (as Moodyman said), but the games still have a indirect influence on it.

Of course, but the actual story of FO:E is dissimilar to that of any Fallout game. Mechanically, it does borrow many things from Fallout 3, and to a lesser extent NV. The Figurines, skills, perks.

[Moodyman90]

I think you're right in that you're just seeing the parallels between the Platinum chip and EC-1011. They're both MacGuffins important to the plot and apparently unlock something powerful, but other then that similarities just stop.

Outside of Benny nobody really cares about the Chip, and while I admit it's probably from the fact it's scripted that way, nobody else tries to take it if you somehow get it back and not use it in the bunker.

EC-1011 is more like... the One Ring. It's a seemingly innocent file that didn't matter until Dues busted in the Stable with the raiders, Blackjack got a hold of it and ran, and the rest of the story has been her trying to find out just what the hell it is as large groups of enemies hunt her down. And ever since getting it, it's caused her nothing but pain and sorrow and the same goes to her friends.

As for the Legion, it's been almost a year since I read FoE, I believe the Zebras being based off of Rome was in the original story. Fallen Caesar style and all that. Yes the Zebras represented the Chinese from Fallout but that doesn't mean they can't also be based of Rome as a society.

Edit: I just compared something from Project Horizons to Lord of the Rings. How much of a nerd am I.

[Icy Shake]

Really? It seems pretty effective, and with some slight modifications (integrated self-destruct, for instance), it could have been used to good effect. You just need somepony to volunteer for a suicide mission, and to get them to where they need to be. And wasn't it the end result of Project Starfall?

The initial implementation of the healing megaspell was botched as hell. Fluttershy had no business designing it and rolling it out in that form; moreover, that's a great example of OIA failing miserably in its coordination role. But as far as I can remember, nothing has indicated that Fluttershy really had any idea that they would be used as weapons--her whole concept was that by making killing impossible (not merely too costly), both sides would have to come to a negotiated peace..

[It was primarily meant for herself and her friends.]

Who would do this, and when? OIA? And who would free Discord to end the war?

Asking soldiers to commit suicide bombings is a PR nightmare unless it's for religious reasons and back then ponies didn't think of the princesses as goddesses so yes it would be a PR nightmare.

First of all, suicide bombings are only one type of suicide mission, and I would not classify this as a suicide bombing; rather, while the long-term health hazard is important (but not that important, as there were taint treatments), the suicide nature, to my mind, comes from the fact that getting to a point to do maximum damage, and returning, would be exceedingly dangerous.

Also, you might be right about general abhorrence of suicide bombings for secular reasons--I don't have the background knowledge to say--but plenty of suicide missions have been ordered by secular authorities, without especially great pushback. See, for instance, the life of a WWI infantryman, or the German forces in the latter parts of the Battle of Stalingrad.

Then Fluttershy was naive.

Yes, she was; that was the point. But it shouldn't have mattered anyway, because OIA should not have allowed her to make the transfer.

The number of souls required to make a phoenix talisman would have made Rarity a war criminal. Sacrificing thousands of souls to make them would not go unnoticed. Even during the war ponies were starting to notice the mysterious deaths. If a phoenix talisman requires so many souls that even during war times and having a lid on any and all information you can't keep people from noticing then what's going to happen when peace happens? The only way project eternity would not have been eventually discovered is if all the materials relevant to it was destroyed and all those involved were shot. Even if it was just for her friends the general public would have found out eventually.

I'm not so sure; it depends on how many were "added" while the talisman was missing (for whether it would be noticed, not to make her a war criminal; there's no doubt that Rarity is a war criminal*, even if only one soul were used that was not donated by a volunteer). We have a floor number of souls to achieve effectiveness of around a dozen; unless the phoenix talisman got around a lot, only a hundred or so would likely be necessary in total, and that seems doable if only harvesting is needed. After all, in that case, there wouldn't be mysterious deaths to track, just soulless husks left after the harvest (or a corpse that took a lot of effort to kill, secretly).

*Yeah, it might eventually have been discovered, but that doesn't seem too likely to me. Going from the assumption that if the world didn't end, and that Equestria was going to win the war, I'd extrapolate that all the war crimes would just be swept under the rug as the country transitioned to normality under the continued rule of Luna. Remember, war criminals tend not to stand trial unless they're on the losing side. Of course, if everything went off as originally planned, it would be revealed as you ended up with immortal, indestructible Ministry Mares. But that would be a different issue, long in the future.

Easy, Discord never killed anyone.

Sure, he didn't kill anyone (that we saw) in the time--what, one day?--that he was released from his statue prison. But we don't know if he killed people off screen, and he probably racked up a tally before he was originally petrified. Even if that were not the case, one could argue that transforming ponies into other animals (including dumb ones) or vastly altering their minds might lie between soul mutilation and death in horror territory. Through in the fact that the Zebras don't like him much more than Nightmare Moon, and I don't see this as any kind of good recipe for ending the war, and certainly not in a happy way--possibly not even an improvement on the megaspell apocalypse.

[CannonFodder]

First of all, suicide bombings are only one type of suicide mission, and I would not classify this as a suicide bombing; rather, while the long-term health hazard is important (but not that important, as there were taint treatments), the suicide nature, to my mind, comes from the fact that getting to a point to do maximum damage, and returning, would be exceedingly dangerous.

Also, you might be right about general abhorrence of suicide bombings for secular reasons--I don't have the background knowledge to say--but plenty of suicide missions have been ordered by secular authorities, without especially great pushback. See, for instance, the life of a WWI infantryman, or the German forces in the latter parts of the Battle of Stalingrad.


I'm not so sure; it depends on how many were "added" while the talisman was missing (for whether it would be noticed, not to make her a war criminal; there's no doubt that Rarity is a war criminal*, even if only one soul were used that was not donated by a volunteer). We have a floor number of souls to achieve effectiveness of around a dozen; unless the phoenix talisman got around a lot, only a hundred or so would likely be necessary in total, and that seems doable if only harvesting is needed. After all, in that case, there wouldn't be mysterious deaths to track, just soulless husks left after the harvest (or a corpse that took a lot of effort to kill, secretly).

*Yeah, it might eventually have been discovered, but that doesn't seem too likely to me. Going from the assumption that if the world didn't end, and that Equestria was going to win the war, I'd extrapolate that all the war crimes would just be swept under the rug as the country transitioned to normality under the continued rule of Luna. Remember, war criminals tend not to stand trial unless they're on the losing side. Of course, if everything went off as originally planned, it would be revealed as you ended up with immortal, indestructible Ministry Mares. But that would be a different issue, long in the future

There's a difference between a suicide mission and a suicide bombing. What I mean by that is there's a difference between telling a soldier to go down fighting and telling them to commit a suicide bombing. If we told our soldiers to commit suicide bombings it would be a PR nightmare.

Oh no, I have a feeling it was more than just a dozen. If it were just a dozen ponies then nobody would notice, but ponies even in hightower were beginning to notice something mighty suspicious going on and that's before it was lost. It was in all probability getting around a lot cause even fluttershy was beginning to notice something fishy going on. When it required so many souls that even those outside your project that have nothing to do with it begin noticing something fishy that's a problem.

Just so you know the idea of "war criminals on the winning side" is a logical fallacy and historically inaccurate. While yes war criminals on the winning side of a war are prosecuted at a lesser rate and given lesser sentences if you stack up enough of a body count you will go to prison anyhow.

Even if Rarity had become immortal she would have still been prosecuted for war crimes as well as necromancy and would have been stuffed into hightower for the rest of eternity.

[Icy Shake]

Oh no, I have a feeling it was more than just a dozen. If it were just a dozen ponies then nobody would notice, but ponies even in hightower were beginning to notice something mighty suspicious going on and that's before it was lost. It was in all probability getting around a lot cause even fluttershy was beginning to notice something fishy going on. When it required so many souls that even those outside your project that have nothing to do with it begin noticing something fishy that's a problem.

"Even Fluttershy" doesn't make sense; she is the first pony not in the know about the project you would expect to notice it, except maybe Pinkie Pie--emergency response, rescue, and the like were her job, so she would find out about the weird cases.

And the "something suspicious in Hightower" included the creation of at least two rooms (or was it just one big room?) full of soul jars that were not the phoenix talisman. Based on my understanding of the description of the phoenix talisman, it only ever absorbs the soul of a pony it is inside; there are very few confirmed cases of that.

Just so you know the idea of "war criminals on the winning side" is a logical fallacy and historically inaccurate. While yes war criminals on the winning side of a war are prosecuted at a lesser rate and given lesser sentences if you stack up enough of a body count you will go to prison anyhow.

I fail to see how recognizing that differential is a logical fallacy (note the use of "to tend"). And from a historical standpoint, what's "enough of a body count"?

Even if Rarity had become immortal she would have still been prosecuted for war crimes as well as necromancy and would have been stuffed into hightower for the rest of eternity.

Why? Why would Luna prosecute her, when it could just be ignored, or she could pardon them?

And my point was that Rarity's (and the others') immortality would be the leak that couldn't be covered up (unless they decided to go with some deception regarding Element bearers becoming immortal or some such), not that immortality would preempt prosecution.

[CannonFodder]

And the "something suspicious in Hightower" included the creation of at least two rooms (or was it just one big room?) full of soul jars that were not the phoenix talisman. Based on my understanding of the description of the phoenix talisman, it only ever absorbs the soul of a pony it is inside; there are very few confirmed cases of that.

Why? Why would Luna prosecute her, when it could just be ignored, or she could pardon them?

And my point was that Rarity's (and the others') immortality would be the leak that couldn't be covered up (unless they decided to go with some deception regarding Element bearers becoming immortal or some such), not that immortality would preempt prosecution.

The phoenix talisman was a part of project eternity. What I mean is even if they tried to destroy and all evidence related to the project to get out of winding up in prison you would have a ton of indestructible evidence against you that would raise like ten questions off the bat that would cause investigations as to what they were doing in hightower-
1)Why are the element of harmony bearers immortal?
2)Why aren't luna and celestia immortal since they used to bear the elements?
3)If being a element bearer made you immortal then why aren't past element bearers other than luna and celestia still alive?
4)Why are non-alicorns immortal?
5)If being a element bearer makes a pony immortal then why do you have a room full of indestructable armor that acts as though they have souls in them?
6)If being a element bearer makes a pony immortal why weren't they immortal before they became ministry mares?
7)Why were there a large numbers of mysterious deaths in hightower?
8 )If being a element bearer makes a pony immortal then why are there reports of other ponies surviving horrible accidents?
9)If being a element bearer makes a pony immortal then why was there a pony burning to death for hours only to die after being visited by rarity?
10)Why would the elements of harmony make a pony immortal?
11)Even if none of these questions popped up the reaction by the general populace would be, "why aren't the ministry mares ageing normally and instead staying the same age?"

The only way rarity would not eventually end up in prison is if luna herself ordered the destruction of all material related to project eternity, erased all memories of it and dumped all the soul jars into a volcano. If equestria was so good at keeping secrets from random ponies then why can blackjack find memory orbs laying about in the streets related to top secret projects?

If equestria had won the war then I would have given it maybe five years until ponies started noticing and at most ten years at most until third party investigations began. Even if luna pardoned rarity the only way she could stop it from getting out is if she ordered for anybody investigating the matter to have a bullet put through their head.

[FeatherDust]

Thing is, while Lac has been hanging around Chapel feeling sorry for herself and helping BJ do good, the rest of Psalm -- minus her self-hatred -- has presumably been cheerfully doing Trixie's bidding. When her memory and her morals get back together, it's gonna be bad...

I don't know, that sorta assumes that there's some part of Psalm that isn't still inside either Lacunae or Blackjack. I'm pretty sure Psalm was completely consumed by her failure before all this -- that's why she was the dumping ground. She volunteered. (My general feeling is that MOST of a pony's mind/soul has to stay with their specific, particular body, unless it's for a very brief time.)

So what's to stop them from using the "I want it!" magic (that Twi used on her old doll to make everypony want it) on Sparkle Cola bottlecaps? [...] So... how crazy am I?

Crazy enough to be right on the money (so to speak, heh.) This is now my headcanon.

Huh.
I love this idea.
And maybe that explains why there's so many bottlecaps in people's lockers, desk drawers, etc... Even after they drink the soda, there's a subtle mental effect in the more suggestible sort: "Why would I want to throw this away? I'll just hang on to it instead."

[Boing]

I was always under the impression that the zebras struck with their megaspells first, though I could be wrong.

While original FOE does mention collaborators, PH does add the lore that some of them were in positions of power in Equestria and that they knew when the strike would happen. My money is on members of the OIA, perhaps Goldenblood himself, and possibly others outside as well.

Why Goldie as a possibility? It's clear early on that he has a good understanding of political machinations and the lengths others will go through to realize their ambitions. He didn't seem to share those ambitions, but he understands them in others.

I think it was Col. Cupcakes memory orb where Goldie, despite be expected not to talk at all, spoke out against taking the zebras withheld coal shipments and that Celestia should negotiate instead. You know, the incident that started the war in the first place. In the recording from Goldenbloods house when Celestia visits him she says something to the effect of: "I should have listened to you those years ago when you said to negotiate."

To me, he seemed to be stuck between his loyalty and respect to Luna and Equestria, and his ability to see ahead to where this path would take the nation. One part of him wants to help Luna win the war, another can see doing this will change the nations for the worse. One of his motivation seems to me, that if others insisted on going down this path that he would try to insert himself into important positions of power thinking he could mitigate some of the worst outcomes while still winning the war.

When Luna comes to him after taking the throne looking for advice, he tells her she should abdicate and make a peace treaty with the zebras, even if the terms are unfavourable. When she refuses he then suggests sharing power via the ministries while at the same time quietly carving out his own power base behind the scenes. After Luna leaves he apologizes to Fluttershy for doing that, because he can see that the results will end in pain for many.

In many of Blackjacks glimpses into the past she would see Goldie trying to convince others not to pursue certain goals, failing far too often.

PH: Chapter 38

“What is that?” Twilight murmured in faint curiousity. “Who is he?”

“This is what we call a blank. Normally I’d show you a complete copy, but with Chimera sealed, all we can do is produce blanks by cycling the systems,” Goldenblood said as he circled around the white pony. “Every single organ and body part found in the pony body, all the components perfectly assembled. No less… and nothing more than that.”

“Nothing more? You mean… there’s no mind?” Twilight asked as she took a closer look. The blank’s eyes didn’t even follow her as it stood there.

“None. Less than an infant. And no soul, either, or at least none we’ve ever been able to detect. A body made of pure biomagical flux.” He gestured to the blank. “Is this a pony? It has no parents, no magic, no spark. It has enough instinct to sleep when it gets tired or eat when it gets hungry, but it otherwise will die without care.”

“It’s fascinating, but… Goldenblood, this is wrong. Luna could never-“ Twilight began, but was cut off as her eyes met the scarred stallion’s gaze. “She doesn’t know about this. She can’t.”

“She can and does. She sees nothing wrong with using Chimera to help the lives of thousands of actual thinking, feeling ponies.” He looked at the blank standing there. “And think. If we could somehow give blanks intellect, we wouldn’t need ponies to fight anymore. We could produce whole armies of blanks, suit them up in power armor or fuse them with dragons, manticores, and phoenixes and send them against our enemies. With Chimera, we could conquer the entire world, if Luna willed it!” he said with a grand wave of his hoof, before he dropped it and stared into her eyes. “And she will. Maybe not today, or tomorrow… but she will. The temptation is inescapable,” he finished in a dreadfully quiet voice; I couldn’t tell if he was talking to Twilight or to himself.

Twilight stared at the blank in horror. Goldenblood stared into her eyes, then asked in a voice soft as a lover’s whisper, “Twilight… have you given a thought... just a thought… about what Equestria will be like if we win this war?”

She swallowed, staring at the simple ghostly pony. “I’ve been… occupied.” He glanced at her, then shook his head with a faint sigh. She looked back at him and asked quietly, “Have you?”

He frowned at her before speaking as if confessing a horrid crime. "Lately? I’ve been incapable of thinking about anything else.”

I love that haunting scene.

PH:Chapter 39

“So… that’s why my potion wasn’t working. Why it kept going unstable. It’ll likely need that magical resonance to stabilize it… possibly a pinch of that metal as well.”

“Possibly,” Goldenblood replied. He turned and started to trot away, but then he paused. “So, you mean to continue?”

She looked at him in confusion. “Of course. This is why the M.A.S. was established. I swore to Princess Luna that I would find her a magical solution to the war, and the Impelled Metamorphosis Potion will do it. We’ll be able to turn hundreds of ponies into alicorns. Earth ponies will be able to do magic and fly for the first time. We could make thousands. End this war once and for all!”

“Even given the cost? You’ll use flux, knowing where it comes from?” Goldenblood asked. She looked away, and he sighed. “I see.“

“I have to do this. I promised Luna that my friends and I would win this war,” Twilight Sparkle said quietly, keeping her eyes away. She stood and started away, but then she too paused. “You promised something similar, if I recall.” She started off without looking back, steps slow and heavy with the burden of knowledge.

“Something like that,” he said softly,

Other examples also exist.

To me, Goldenblood thought that he could keep the lids on countless cookie jars, that he could manipulate hundreds, if not thousands, of others over the long term. That he could keep all those plates spinning to prevent them from making choices that would go to even worse places (he couldn't). That he was himself immune from the corrupting effects of power (he wasn't).

Which brings me (finally) back to the possibility of Goldenblood becoming a zebra collaborator. I remember somewhere (I'd cite it if I knew exactly where) The Dealer/Echo (Goldie's assistant) saying that surrendering to the zebras likely wouldn't have been all that bad as they were a spent nation with a decimated population, unable to continue their traditional ways of fighting. Reduced to using robots and cyborgs as their main fighting forces. Though I think for that to be the better outcome it would have to include Equestria not being occupied.

Blackjack's conversation with Xanthe after Hightower is a treasure trove of plot points.

PH: chapter 49

“Don’t they have extra missiles at Dawn Bay?”

She shook her head. “No. Your Ministry of Awesome destroyed and stole dozens of our missiles prior to the day of fire,” she said quietly.

“How’d they pull that off?” I asked with a wry smile.

“We’ve no idea. It was one of our greatest defeats; in one night the Shadowbolts and members of the Ministry of Awesome infiltrated the launch facility, made off with two dozen cruise missiles, and destroyed dozens more. More than a hundred guards were executed for their failure.” She looked away. “The ministry sabotaged the balefire bomb stockpile. When the day of fire came, only a dozen bombs were fired from Dawn Bay. Not hundreds, as intended.”

“Hundreds?”

“Oh yes. The Caesar’s final plan was to turn every inch of Equestria into irradiated glass. There was some invasion or big attack planned, something made with the help of a collaborator, and if it failed we would have been left with only one solution: overwhelming balefire bombardment.” She said it so casually… “Had Dawn Bay and other facilities been intact and ready, it might even have been realized. Collaborators and sympathizers had allowed us to build and hide weapons all over your country. The old launch facilities ran for miles above the base. A forest of ballistic missiles that never flew, thanks to your Ministry of Awesome.” She sounded just a touch resentful.

"There was some invasion or big attack planned, something made with the help of a collaborator...". I don't remember any big offensive mentioned happening shortly before the bombs fell. Perhaps because the collaborator had been removed from office and imprisoned before the plan could be enacted?

That's my view of it anyway, Equestria was going to be a damn crappy place if they won (not even including all the planned charges of war crimes, vengeful infighting, power struggles and whatnot), and I think it's very possible Goldenblood saw this and decided that he had failed badly. That Equestria losing the war and being forced to give up much that had been developed during it would be a better outcome. Not a good one, but better than winning. And better than the bombs dropping, in his opinion.

He thought too highly of himself and his abilities, and seemed to think that aiming for the lesser of two evils was good enough, imo.

Just a theory I've had in mind for awhile.

And regarding the debate about missiles and interception thereof: Xanthe continues in 49...

...She sounded just a touch resentful.

“So the zebras were going to push a button and wipe out all of Equestria?” I asked in shock. Xanthe’s shamed eyes fell as she tapped her hooves in front of her.

“From documents in my home, I believe so. What alternative did we have?” Xanthe asked, almost begging me to understand. “Even with our superior numbers and natural resources, we could neither overcome you nor push you to surrender. Your megaspells and secret projects were too much for us. No matter how much we stole, infiltrated, or attacked, we couldn’t beat you. Even balefire wasn’t enough! Ponies developed megaspells that turned the sun itself into a devastating weapon. There were predictions that when we struck Equestria, only one out of every twenty missiles would reach their target, and that number grew every month! In another year, it would have been one out of every two hundred. And once we fell, what would stop the Maiden of Stars from taking over the entire world?”

It hurt to think about. The war had gone on for a generation, and here was a zebra absolutely certain that if they hadn’t used tens of thousands of megaspells, they would have lost for sure. But so what? Wouldn’t it have been better for one side to win than everyone to lose?

What if the zebras had won the war? The Remnant had continued waging war for two hundred years to destroy the Hoof. If Equestria had surrendered, would they have just stopped there? While Sekashi and Xanthe proved that not all zebras were bad, I had seen Lancer coldly shooting a dozen of his own kind. Would there have been death squads of Lancers hunting down ponies? Countless balefire bombs annihilating Equestria entirely? I just didn’t know…

What if Equestria had won? I’d like to have thought that everything would have returned to normal, but honestly, I’d never really thought about what postwar Equestria would have been like. Luna’s Equestria… I felt a shiver run through my entire body and shook my head. It didn’t matter… and I didn’t want to think of Equestria after a thousand years of Luna, the ministries, and the O.I.A.

I don't think the technological specifics really matter, but it is clear from this that the ponies defenses against them were there, and improving markedly faster the zebras could overcome them.

[FeatherDust]

That assumes it was chance that the bomb went off at that moment. I don't believe in that kind of coincidence.

The Zebras were on the verge of losing the war, and they knew it.

You're assuming it was a cloaked zebra. That theory immediately falls through the floor with basic physics. THAT close to the vats and there would be nothing left from a megaspell detonation. While the crater at maripony means they got extremely close they did not thread the needle.

I think SilentCarto is onto something here, though. Even if they had only a little intelligence into what was going on inside the ministries, they had to know that at least three major war-ending projects were about to go online (bypass spells, the SPP, and Alicornication). For the zebra forces, this is the time to use all the bombs, set all the plans in motion, and end this. Because if they wait even a few days more, they're going to lose and "Nightmare" Luna wins the world.

Regardless of the actual positioning of the Maripony bomb, the fact that it hit right as the test was starting is really too much to credit to luck. Whether there was somebody inside or outside watching a stolen monitor feed or whatever. Actually, come to that, they probably just underestimated how strong Maripony was, and expected the bomb to actually incinerate it.

At any rate, hitting Maripony at that particular moment would be a good idea, tactically speaking -- as the first actual test commences, everyone involved in the project would be present. You'd be able to get Twilight, Mosaic, and Gestalt in one fell swoop. Decapitate the MAS and wreck their most promising project with a single shot.

[FeatherDust]

Random question (I seem to have these a lot): Applebot said EC-1101 is a megaspell.

A megaspell is a spell that has been supercharged, right? A healing spell, only way more powerful. A balefire egg, supersized. Want it need it across an entire region. A shield covering a city.

EC-1101 is advanced, but it's not really big. Not that we've seen. At most it can unlock projects one by one that have been sealed by royal command.

...so what I'm wondering is, when it's in the right place at the tight time, is it actually going to do something big, like any other megaspell? Or is this it?

I think the 'bigness' of EC-1101 is being a control override for EVERYTHING EVER and being able to autonomously travel the networks to find the next valid user.

Anyway, a megaspell doesn't have to be big... a megaspell matrix is a way of stabilizing a spell and sort of "disconnecting" it from the caster. Normally this is done so that many casters can feed power in, but in EC-1101's case I think the megaspell matrix is standing in for a physical object as the target of the soul jar.

[FeatherDust]

But there's the interesting question of what happens when you combine a healing talisman with a megaspell?

I'm not sure what point you're getting at here. Rampage is that effect.

Soul jars appear to be able to apply the soul's magic energy to whatever the object was designed to do, but ONLY to that purpose. A book can only impart knowledge. A sword can only cut. A suit of stealth armor can only stealth and protect. When you put a soul into a magically powered item, the magic the soul can provide acts as a power source, which is what's happening in the Phoenix Talisman.

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