Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[nebulous]

Wasn't Applebloom the inventor of terminals and PipBucks and a driving force behind the computer revolution in the first place? I'd think she'd be pretty familiar with the software side of things, especially after two centuries to study it as a robot.

As for being dead, my impression on first reading the scene was that the local hologram bot was remote operated. And, meta evidence, but we never learned why or how Applebot existed, so that points towards us seeing more of her in the future.

[SilentCarto]

I was just thinking, I know the Crusaders' name and symbology probably came straight from Twist!Arloste, but as of "One Bad Apple", the concept of the CMCs has disseminated beyond Ponyville.

I really wish that vanilla FoE's epilogue didn't happen as it would raise more tension for what's to come.

But remember, BJ's vision of the future did include FOE wrapping up the way it did, long before the "present day" of the dream. It took years for Hoofington to rise fully, but with EC-1101 in Cognitum's end-effectors, not even Littlepip and Celestia One could stop it.

It does seem like there's a third party other than cognitum and the harbringers.

Personally I like the theory that there's two AI in hoofington fighting for dominance, cause it's far more logical than just Cognitum being crazy.

If there's another third party allied with another AI then we may eventually see them later on, but I doubt if we do it's going to be mind shattering levels of dramatic reveal so much as they didn't have the resources or manpower to directly help Blackjack. Like I don't think Goldenblood is going to come down on a spaceship with aliens levels of dramatic more of a small group of ponies and a AI watching Blackjack making sure Cognitum doesn't take control of the city and kill Blackjack.

To clarify, the "third party" I mentioned was 'third' relative to Blackjack and the Harbingers. Probably Green Line... or whoever was impersonating Spike. I strongly suspect Green Line is aligned with the OIA. The eponymous green trace on the Hippocratic network diagram entered through the security node, which suggests that it has security access that even Cog, the city defense system, doesn't.

I didn't mean to suggest there was a third AI (or operator) involved, just that the info Dawn gave us about Cog makes it clear that Cog has far less control than I believed before. There are a large number of systems -- such as the Core defense lasers at Mercy -- running on local control. It's less a vast empire of AI-controlled systems and more an array of city-states with Cog suborning one or two at a time. So absent any other evidence (such as screaming GIVE GIVE GIVE), any action by an electronic system might be Cog, or might just be an isolated system blindly executing its programming.

[Quotidian]

Okay, holy shit. I know this has been said probably a thousand times, but god damn this was a good chapter. Back flip tank fight limbsplosions aside (and as silly as some of that was I did enjoy having another big action sequence) there's so much to like here.

P-21's back, and did anyone else think that without the Med-X scrambling his brain, he's even cleverer now than he was before?

Plus, Dawn and the Harbingers. Now I think it's been established that I'm not a clever pony, but I really didn't see that coming. Were there hints that she was behind them this whole time? I did think it was kind of weird that she showed up when she did, but I didn't see the full on ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL coming.

Deus ex Tankina was well played and absolutely fucking terrifying now that I've had some time to think about it. Reminds me a lot of some of Keith Thompson's creepier stuff.

And there was finally a callback to the exploding mare back in Tenpony tower. Sometimes I feel like there's almost too much going on in this story to keep it all in my head. I don't know how Somber does it.

[Meleagridis]

The eponymous green trace on the Hippocratic network diagram entered through the security node, which suggests that it has security access that even Cog, the city defense system, doesn't.

Unless she isn't the defense system.
We've all just been assuming that she's the grid, mostly because she's got all the robots. But what if she's not the house? Maybe she's the squatter? The virus? An invader in Hoofington, living on borrowed time in borrowed bots and trying (in my interpretation of 'GIVE ME LIFE') to patch/fix/invent itself to consciousness.
I'm going to try and find the chapter when she first wakes up. Maybe there's a hint there.

Stuff like the pipbuck timestop SATS spell is really advanced, after all.

But that's StableTec, right? Under her jurisdiction. But more importantly: if I'm remembering right, Applebot basically said that she was pretty much the same as Applebloom, as far as Blackjack was concerned. But she's not a soul jar because she was clearly destroyed. Yet it's been made quite clear that the only other way to fully imprint a personality without 50s-era scifi mishaps is a Crusader Mainframe. There's still one or two unnacounted for, right? And Applebot seems way too small to be a huge mainframe.

So the odds are slim that the robot BJ talked to was the source of the Applebloom in Applebot. If the Applebloom didn't come from Applebot, could she have fled to safety when Applebot failed?

---

@O. Hinds and @Meleagridis, would you mind filling me in on this "Moojave Project" you mentioned?

They basically got it. I'mma make a thread in hope of potential input, so details will go there. Essentially it's making a chunk of wasteland, another setting.

Changelings

I love changelings and all, but I just don't see it. She was already flayed alive for her cyber-lovecraftian 'upgrade,' I'm pretty sure only Blackjack is allowed to get such an overdose of templates. A cyborg-zombie-Unified-mutant is okay on it's own, no need to add in robo-changeling-enclave.

Besides, if Glory were half-ling, wouldn't that be a convenient out of the whole Rainbow situation?

[Meleagridis]

That reminds me- Sekashi kicked ass for the first time this chapter. There are probably a bunch of readers who got caught off-guard by that, especially if they didn't pay attention when she explained her past (the second time).

I'm increasingly positive that when either Lancer or Sekashi say the last things they will say in Project Horizons, that one will bear close witness to the other.

...Wonder what Lancer's up to.

[O. Hinds]

So does anyone currently want Horizons activated, that we know of?

It's still possible Cogs wants it activated and was lying to Dawn when it claimed it wanted Horizons locked down forever.

Who knows? Maybe nobody wants Horizons turned on, at least not without a lot of preparation.

I do think whoever was imitating Spike in Goldenblood's cottage basement is on the side of good; I suspect that was Green Line and that they're friendly and helpful, but limited. (Again, I'm thinking it's a Crusader with a brain-copy or something.)

It could be.

If I had to take a guess of what's going to happen eventually happen is that when EC-1101 finds out that no one in the pre-war chain of command is left that it will open up permission to the pony holding it. Makes sense really, cause the last destination is and was a military base. So once it determines that the pony last on the list is dead then whoever would have been acting commanding officer on the base would have been given EC-1101.

Now the question is once EC-1101 finds out the last pony on the list is dead what will it do?

It could be something to do with the military since the last destination is a military base. It's possible that it does activate project horizons. However I don't think it's a doomsday machine. That doesn't seem very logical to have a system that destroys the world after the program already has determined the world has been destroyed.

Aren't you forgetting the Descendant Protocol? Or are you assuming that it won't work?

especially since it was crashed by enclave. If Blackjack ever goes back to try and find her I'd expect the place picked clean.

Wait, when did the GPE (or even just Thunderhead) hit Stable-Tec R&D?

[O. Hinds]

Also, nallar.me/fics is down again.

[CannonFodder]

Aren't you forgetting the Descendant Protocol? Or are you assuming that it won't work?

I'm not saying that it won't work so much as the program had several fall backs in case the chain of command was all killed. It'd be kind of dumb to create a program that only a small number of ponies that can over time be fired or replaced on the list and then when the end comes nobody other than a relative can use it. After all what were the chances that a relative of the mane 6 would be stationed at the base? It would also make sense why the last destination for the program is a military base, cause they would have a acting commanding officer regardless so long as some of the ponies hadn't died yet.

[Luminous Lead]

Changelings

I love changelings and all, but I just don't see it. She was already flayed alive for her cyber-lovecraftian 'upgrade,' I'm pretty sure only Blackjack is allowed to get such an overdose of templates. A cyborg-zombie-Unified-mutant is okay on it's own, no need to add in robo-changeling-enclave.

Besides, if Glory were half-ling, wouldn't that be a convenient out of the whole Rainbow situation?

I'm not saying that changelings are or should be in the story, or that Dawn was one, merely that we can't rule them out on character introduction times alone. Thinking about it though, if Glory could have had an easy out the whole time, wouldn't that be really "funny"?

Also, we're all asuming that Cognitum is based in the core. Is it at all possible that she's actually broadcasting wirelessly from say, the moon? Would explain why she has very little control/authority in the core.

[Icy Shake]

But that's StableTec, right? Under her jurisdiction. But more importantly: if I'm remembering right, Applebot basically said that she was pretty much the same as Applebloom, as far as Blackjack was concerned. But she's not a soul jar because she was clearly destroyed. Yet it's been made quite clear that the only other way to fully imprint a personality without 50s-era scifi mishaps is a Crusader Mainframe. There's still one or two unnacounted for, right? And Applebot seems way too small to be a huge mainframe.

So the odds are slim that the robot BJ talked to was the source of the Applebloom in Applebot. If the Applebloom didn't come from Applebot, could she have fled to safety when Applebot failed?

It's possible that there are more Crusaders, but I believe there only three were established in FoE (and I don't especially remember more--built without Scootaloo's knowledge, though I guess she could just have been lying about the count--being talked about in PH) (also, the aesthetics of the name is lessened if more than three were made): the one in Spike's cave, which was dormant; the one in Stable 29, which never had a mind uploaded; and the MoA's SPP Crusader, which was occupied and soul-jarred by Celestia. But she could perhaps be imprinted in another, lesser maneframe.

[O. Hinds]

But she could perhaps be imprinted in another, lesser maneframe.

I've got Elusive as a network AI, for instance, fully distributed but based primarily and originally in a group of beowulfed lesser maneframes aboard the Elusive. If Cognitum's not on a knockoff Crusader, she might be on something like that; it would fit with the scale she can bring to bear.

(Incidentally, does anyone remember the name of Beowulf's horse?)

[RoboRed]

Nope, I haven't read Beowulf since my sophomore year of high school.

[Sindri]

I'm not saying that changelings are or should be in the story, or that Dawn was one, merely that we can't rule them out on character introduction times alone. Thinking about it though, if Glory could have had an easy out the whole time, wouldn't that be really "funny"?

Also, we're all asuming that Cognitum is based in the core. Is it at all possible that she's actually broadcasting wirelessly from say, the moon? Would explain why she has very little control/authority in the core.

I think Somber said that she'd never use Changelings. On the other hoof, I think she said the same about Princess Cadence, who later got a mention in a flashback...
I think that Dawn-as-a-changeling is highly unlikely on its own though, and Glory even less so. For one thing, you don't chrome up a shapeshifter. And if changelings operate by illusion instead of actual shifting, she'd at least have covered her eyes with that and there would never have been a need for such a... visceral reveal when Cogs decided to assume direct control.

Now, as for the broadcast... I still feel like it originated in the Core, but that's a possibility. But if she were controlling things from an overhead view, shouldn't she have the same level of influence over the whole Wasteland? And wouldn't her control be limited to about four hours a day while it's in the 60 degree arc where you get a decent signal? It would explain the shredding of the mare who left and talk at Tenpony, but that's easy to explain with a preprogrammed kill setting operating autonomously.


@Hinds
Sorry, can't recall a name ever being given for his steed. And wikipedia isn't helping.

[Vergil]

Nope, I haven't read Beowulf since my sophomore year of high school.

I didn't think he had a named horse...

[Icy Shake]

I think Somber said that she'd never use Changelings. On the other hoof, I think she said the same about Princess Cadence, who later got a mention in a flashback...

And, I think, in correspondence. Though it raises an interesting question about continuity:

“Trixie, you know you don’t have to do this…”
“Oh, I want to,” the blue unicorn insisted. “I want to help. And… this will make me more powerful? Like Luna and Celestia?”
“Well, not that powerful. But more powerful, yes.”
“Like you then?”
Twilight Sparkle looked uncomfortable. “We’re hoping for more than that.”
“And… it’s safe, right?”
“Absolutely,” Twilight Sparkle assured the blue unicorn on the catwalk below her. “All the tests have come back looking spectacular. The only variable is, well, dosage. And for that we need to do testing with pony volunteers like you. With luck, we’ll get it right the first time, and you’ll be the first new alicorn since Luna was born.”

Which invites a few interpretations of Cadence:
1) She didn't exist in the FoE universe.
2) She was older than Luna.
3) Twilight (and presumably Trixie) forgot about the existence of her sister-in-law and collaborator (respectively, a major public figure--or maybe she just didn't want to make Twilight look/feel stupid by pointing it out).
4) She wasn't (really) an alicorn. (Incidentally, I think this works best at preserving what we've seen in FoE and PH, out of those I came up with.)

Any other suggestions or interpretations?

[Sindri]

Which invites a few interpretations of Cadence:
1) She didn't exist in the FoE universe.
2) She was older than Luna.
3) Twilight (and presumably Trixie) forgot about the existence of her sister-in-law and collaborator (respectively, a major public figure--or maybe she just didn't want to make Twilight look/feel stupid by pointing it out).
4) She wasn't (really) an alicorn. (Incidentally, I think this works best at preserving what we've seen in FoE and PH, out of those I came up with.)

Any other suggestions or interpretations?

I've always held to #4, interpreting Cadence as a unicorn with a mutation giving her partial expression of pegasus traits. A true alicorn has full expression of traits from all three varieties of pony and a significant power boost on top of that.


On a largely unrelated note, the talk about Cogs' signal and influence reminded me... The Dealer seems to show up effortlessly in some areas, strain in some, and be completely unable to manifest in others. Thoughts on the possibility that he actually resides off-site and connects to Blackjack's pipbuck remotely to observe or talk?

[Ketchup]

Well, she might not have been born an alicorn, but that doesn't make much sense since the only way to make alicorns didn't exist at that time and was only used in a controlled manner once.

[Sindri]

Ooh, ooh, poison joke?

[Harmony Ltd.]

Pretty much everything Dealer said seems to indicate that EC-1101 is bonded to his own soul. Which mean that if EC-1101 is in BJ's pipbuck, it's where he is.

[Ketchup]

I don't see any potential jokes involved aside from being used as a javelin. And it wears off, doesn't it?

[Sindri]

I don't see any potential jokes involved aside from being used as a javelin. And it wears off, doesn't it?

Yeah... and she's not blue anywhere. Nevermind.

[Ketchup]

I don't see any potential jokes involved aside from being used as a javelin. And it wears off, doesn't it?

Yeah... and she's not blue anywhere. Nevermind.

Well Applejack, Fluttershy and Rarity weren't blue after their exposure, so I don't think it is necessarily a trait of vanilla poison joke. Twilight and Pinkie were blue after exposure to an extent. Rainbow doesn't count. So if it changes a color, it turns blue.

[O. Hinds]

Nope, I haven't read Beowulf since my sophomore year of high school.

I didn't think he had a named horse...

Ah, that's certainly a possibility.


Re no other alicorns in FoE:
I don't actually think that Snipe or I, when we were actively arguing against Cadence being in PH, remembered that, so I'm not sure what the reasoning is.

[SilentCarto]

...Wonder what Lancer's up to.

A more immediate question might be "Who stole the meteorites from the museum?"

It occurs to me that the Zebra response to the stars is kind of like a Call of Cthulhu character that burns all books unread. Safe from any sanity-shattering revelations, yes, but also ignorant of whatever's happening and unable to stop it.

It's possible that there are more Crusaders, but I believe there only three were established in FoE (and I don't especially remember more--built without Scootaloo's knowledge, though I guess she could just have been lying about the count--being talked about in PH) (also, the aesthetics of the name is lessened if more than three were made): the one in Spike's cave, which was dormant; the one in Stable 29, which never had a mind uploaded; and the MoA's SPP Crusader, which was occupied and soul-jarred by Celestia. But she could perhaps be imprinted in another, lesser maneframe.

Yeah, I prefer to think there are only three Crusaders, but Crusaders were only the most complex and powerful of a wider category of "maneframes". They were sufficiently complex to record and replicate a living brain, but an AI capable of holding a cogent conversation could be orders of magnitude less complicated if it didn't have to keep up with all that low-level wetware intended to operate things like reflexes and breathing. Not to mention all the inefficient mental functions, like encoding memory inside your central processor.

(Incidentally, does anyone remember the name of Beowulf's horse?)

You may be thinking of Siefried's horse, Grani.

Which invites a few interpretations of Cadence:
1) She didn't exist in the FoE universe.
2) She was older than Luna.
3) Twilight (and presumably Trixie) forgot about the existence of her sister-in-law and collaborator (respectively, a major public figure--or maybe she just didn't want to make Twilight look/feel stupid by pointing it out).
4) She wasn't (really) an alicorn. (Incidentally, I think this works best at preserving what we've seen in FoE and PH, out of those I came up with.)

Any other suggestions or interpretations?

I'm gonna have to go with the MST3k Mantra on this one. If Cadence had appeared before FOE wrapped up, that line would have been different, but Kkat isn't a fortune-teller.

[O. Hinds]

You may be thinking of Siefried's horse, Grani.

No, I'm definitely after the name of Beowulf's horse, assuming that he had one. I want to know what ponies call beowulfing.

[Admiral Stoic Rum]

I'm not saying that changelings are or should be in the story, or that Dawn was one, merely that we can't rule them out on character introduction times alone. Thinking about it though, if Glory could have had an easy out the whole time, wouldn't that be really "funny"?

Also, we're all asuming that Cognitum is based in the core. Is it at all possible that she's actually broadcasting wirelessly from say, the moon? Would explain why she has very little control/authority in the core.

I think Somber said that she'd never use Changelings. On the other hoof, I think she said the same about Princess Cadence, who later got a mention in a flashback...
I think that Dawn-as-a-changeling is highly unlikely on its own though, and Glory even less so. For one thing, you don't chrome up a shapeshifter. And if changelings operate by illusion instead of actual shifting, she'd at least have covered her eyes with that and there would never have been a need for such a... visceral reveal when Cogs decided to assume direct control.

Now, as for the broadcast... I still feel like it originated in the Core, but that's a possibility. But if she were controlling things from an overhead view, shouldn't she have the same level of influence over the whole Wasteland? And wouldn't her control be limited to about four hours a day while it's in the 60 degree arc where you get a decent signal? It would explain the shredding of the mare who left and talk at Tenpony, but that's easy to explain with a preprogrammed kill setting operating autonomously.


@Hinds
Sorry, can't recall a name ever being given for his steed. And wikipedia isn't helping.

dawn is a cyber pnoy

[Icy Shake]

Well, she might not have been born an alicorn, but that doesn't make much sense since the only way to make alicorns didn't exist at that time and was only used in a controlled manner once.

Not first new alicorn to be born since Luna's birth, just straight up the first new alicorn, period. So said the most anal retentive unicorn in all the land (unless Rarity is first--depending on how you look at things, it might be hard to say).

I don't see any potential jokes involved aside from being used as a javelin. And it wears off, doesn't it?

Come on, what was the biggest joke about her before season three? You make her special talent become making siblings want each other romantically and/or sexually. Or was it just jokes that result in her being an alicorn/winged unicorn/horned pegusus/winged-and-horned Earth pony? Because then you could be right; I'm stumped, unless you go with the Killing Joke explanation for Lacunae's appearance they used on the Steel Rangers.

Re no other alicorns in FoE:
I don't actually think that Snipe or I, when we were actively arguing against Cadence being in PH, remembered that, so I'm not sure what the reasoning is.

Eh. I only "remembered" it a week or so ago when I hit chapter twenty nine in the audiobook. Trust me, had I remembered it I would have been all over that during prior conversations on the topic. Because that's what I do.

It's possible that there are more Crusaders, but I believe there only three were established in FoE (and I don't especially remember more--built without Scootaloo's knowledge, though I guess she could just have been lying about the count--being talked about in PH) (also, the aesthetics of the name is lessened if more than three were made): the one in Spike's cave, which was dormant; the one in Stable 29, which never had a mind uploaded; and the MoA's SPP Crusader, which was occupied and soul-jarred by Celestia. But she could perhaps be imprinted in another, lesser maneframe.

Yeah, I prefer to think there are only three Crusaders, but Crusaders were only the most complex and powerful of a wider category of "maneframes". They were sufficiently complex to record and replicate a living brain, but an AI capable of holding a cogent conversation could be orders of magnitude less complicated if it didn't have to keep up with all that low-level wetware intended to operate things like reflexes and breathing. Not to mention all the inefficient mental functions, like encoding memory inside your central processor.

Which invites a few interpretations of Cadence:
1) She didn't exist in the FoE universe.
2) She was older than Luna.
3) Twilight (and presumably Trixie) forgot about the existence of her sister-in-law and collaborator (respectively, a major public figure--or maybe she just didn't want to make Twilight look/feel stupid by pointing it out).
4) She wasn't (really) an alicorn. (Incidentally, I think this works best at preserving what we've seen in FoE and PH, out of those I came up with.)

Any other suggestions or interpretations?

I'm gonna have to go with the MST3k Mantra on this one. If Cadence had appeared before FOE wrapped up, that line would have been different, but Kkat isn't a fortune-teller.

No argument on the Applebloom upload. Though I do think that from a storytelling perspective, uploaded minds probably fits into the "less is more" category, in this context--it's not something I think I would want to see too often in the FoE-verse.

As for the Mantra--nope. I like overthinking things, and I like becoming strongly attached to things. It's fun, and much of the time I couldn't stop if I wanted to (which I sometimes do).

Moreover, I actually like how finished--or just utterly incompatible--stories act like time capsules, letting us remember, in a way, what things were like at given times in the show's history. So while if FoE had wrapped up a month ago instead of a year ago Cadence (and more importantly Shining Armor) might have been incorporated, I actually like the fact that canon has been allowed to diverge.

[CannonFodder]

As for the topic of a crusader mainframe applebloom I don't think it's a crusader mainframe as we know it, but rather a poor mimicry and if it is a crusader it's probably more of a AI meant to mimic applebloom instead of actually be a copy of her.

[O. Hinds]

when I hit chapter twenty nine in the audiobook

Eh? I wasn't aware that 29 had even started recording yet. The latest release appears to be 24 with 25 and 26 both in editing and little or no work yet done on 27.

[Harmony Ltd.]

re Crusader maneframe :

IIRC it has been more or less explicitely stated ine the story that when it was originally intended for only three of them to be built, the OIA worked its magic to triple this number, so that three would be delivered to the people / organization who originally ordered them, and keeping six for its own use (which is, coincidentally, the same number of ministries the OIA was tasked to link together...).

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