Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

[Harmony Ltd.]

Interesting points all around.

Seriously, the complexity of the geopolitics of our setting is getting out of hand and I love it.

[Harmony Ltd.]

If the NCR found out after the war, well, there're not likely to attack the Alliance (and, more to the point, the Miliozi), but I would expect Company business to enter a sudden and very steep decline in NCR territory.

Thinking about it, this might be a good, politically practical reason on which the NCR could base its diplomatic policy of limiting as much as possible its economic / strategic reliance on Alliance goods and treat it (the Alliance) as a potential threat.

I mean, apart from the whole "Manifest Destiny" stuff of the NCR clashing with the overtly stated end-goal of Elusive which is ruling the entire universe. Or the not so subtle attempts on Elusive's part at economic warfare against the NCR.

... In fact, you know what, when you scratch the surface, the NCR has more than enough justifications to not trust Elusive.



...

Sudden thought: just how reliant on Elusive are the Miliozi? 'Cause I'm wondering if their being part of the Alliance at this point is just, let's say, political; or if it's a case that the Miliozi taken apart from the Alliance and its resources would be severely weakened?

[O. Hinds]

Seriously, the complexity of the geopolitics of our setting is getting out of hand and I love it.

:)

... In fact, you know what, when you scratch the surface, the NCR has more than enough justifications to not trust Elusive.

Yeah.

Sudden thought: just how reliant on Elusive are the Miliozi? 'Cause I'm wondering if their being part of the Alliance at this point is just, let's say, political; or if it's a case that the Miliozi taken apart from the Alliance and its resources would be severely weakened?

Severely, perhaps not, but significantly, yes. It would also depend on the relations with the other Alliance powers and on how sudden the split was.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Do the Miliozi have R&D programs in place to try to come up with their own hardware & stuff that isn't dependent on Elusive technology, and alternative trading partners to cover for the possibility that Elusive oil & resources might stop flowing in their direction; or is their cost-analysis on that matter "nah, it's not worth it in the present circumstances"?

[Harmony Ltd.]

I find it funny how basically no one in power in the known world actually trusts Elusive, yet everyone is willing to trade / compromise / Ally with him to a certain extent, because, hey, shit, that asshole brings a lot of goodies to the table.

Kinda like the rest of the world with the USA :v

[O. Hinds]

Do the Miliozi have R&D programs in place to try to come up with their own hardware & stuff that isn't dependent on Elusive technology

Not a lot of their technology is actually dependent on Elusive, and most or all of that which currently is they could already create their own replacements for.  That would take time and resources that could be used elsewhere, though, and give results that either duplicated or, at least at first, were inferior to things the Alliance already has.  It's a tradeoff, but, from a technology standpoint, breaking away from Elusive wouldn't be their most significant problem.  Breaking away from Profectum would hurt them much more in that area, but, as breaking away from Profectum would also hurt the Elusive Company, if not quite as much, and Profectum would likely be more inclined to side with the Miliozi if a split occurred, that's not an especially big concern for them.

and alternative trading partners to cover for the possibility that Elusive oil & resources might stop flowing in their direction

This would be the big problem with breaking away from Elusive.  Having to replace all the trade and resources the Company provides with their own alternatives would, where it's possible at all, stretch them rather thin until they could reconfigure themselves for it (and even then, their strength in other areas would be sapped by it).  With their holdings on the Peninsula and some in the Alliance heartland (though Elusive could make access to some of those annoying) and potential trade partners such as Hell, they could get by, but they'd be significantly weakened and in some areas significantly vulnerable.  And the Miliozi do not find a situation where they're described as weak and vulnerable to be an appealing one.  Even if they avoided that by getting a trade partner or network of trade partners to completely replace the Company, they'd then just have traded the Company for another group they have the same sorts of relations with.  And at least they know the Company, have a history with it, and can seek leverage over it through the rest of the Alliance.

(Did that answer your question about the cost analysis?)

I find it funny how basically no one in power in the known world actually trusts Elusive, yet everyone is willing to trade / compromise / Ally with him to a certain extent, because, hey, shit, that asshole brings a lot of goodies to the table.

Heh, pretty much.

Kinda like the rest of the world with the USA :v

:)

[Harmony Ltd.]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperloop


This seems like the kind things that could be built one day on the Peninsula. Especially considering cloud & levitation magic.

[O. Hinds]

It could be a logical progression of the Aerotrain-like system you proposed earlier, too, perhaps.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Although I've been reconsidering the idea of the aerotrain, as it seems that the rail infrastructure of the Peninsula are in a better state than what I thought (apparently trains can run between at least Old and New Appeloosa in FoE canon, and perhaps between New Appleloosa and Fillydelphia).

As I imagine restoring to a functional state the mostly useable old rail infrastructure during the War for logistical reasons would be one of the priorities at that time, it wouldn't seem to make too much sense to develop a whole new infrastructure that's going to be used only to move passengers around when the existing infrastructure is more than enough to transport the existing volume of passengers already; and if you want to go from point A to B quickly you can just pay for a ride on a Sky Chariot / Sky Bus.

[O. Hinds]

apparently trains can run between at least Old and New Appeloosa in FoE canon, and perhaps between New Appleloosa and Fillydelphia

Oh, sorry; I didn't know you'd not remembered that. We also have, from PH, the Goliath Express.

“Ah… Killing Joke,” Lacunae said calmly. The yellow mare glared at the alicorn but didn’t deny it. “You’re the Goliath Express then?”
“Haulin’ anything from FillyDee to Trots to the Hoof to any damn place in between if the pay is right!” the crotchety old unicorn said proudly. Then she looked at Glory and pointed behind us at her son. “He’s Goliath, case ya missed that.”

(I'm not sure what "Trots" is. If it's Trottingham, presumably that particular destination is broad-stroked around for us. It could be something else, though. ...Or, hm, perhaps there's a still-passable tunnel under the channel? Any thoughts on that?)

As I imagine restoring to a functional state the mostly useable old rail infrastructure during the War for logistical reasons would be one of the priorities at that time, it wouldn't seem to make too much sense to develop a whole new infrastructure that's going to be used only to move passengers around when the existing infrastructure is more than enough to transport the existing volume of passengers already; and if you want to go from point A to B quickly you can just pay for a ride on a Sky Chariot / Sky Bus.

Aye.
I suppose that someone might have recently built a cloud-aerotrain line between Manehattan and Junction City, though, if we still want to use the idea.

[O. Hinds]

So, here's an idea for something we could work on without having to wait for the end of PH: what does the average Wastelander who knows of it at all think, before FoE, about the San Frantello area? Later in the timeline but still pre-SR, what does the Wasteland Survival Guide say about it? There's obviously something there; even if the tower (on Woventales's SPP map) west of Hippocampus Energy Plant #12 can be cranked up to work as a large-coverage-radius tower like the one in Fillydelphia, there's a gap in the cloud curtain over the land and bay around San Frantello (and there's a much larger one if that tower can't be cranked up). Look from the right spots on land or, especially, from the sea and you can see ships and aircraft coming and going and the city itself active. And full of heavily armed zebras. People who approach in the right way might even be able to trade a bit, but people who approach in the wrong way risk being shot at by both the city's inhabitants and the GPE with quite possibly no benefit. I can see a variety of views developing. And when it comes time to produce the Wasteland Survival guide, does Ditzy have good information? Did she manage to get to Masozi herself, or is she just collecting information from others about it (and tagging it as such, of course, because she wouldn't want to mislead people)?

As a related question, do you think that perhaps, still pre-SR, a few enterprising seafarers like Captain Thrush (though predating her, probably) might have been able to follow cargo ships leaving San Frantello away from the Peninsula and end up doing a bit of trade with the Alliance? The Alliance can't send its own trade into GPE groundspace, but we know that there's already an unspoken "and get caught" after that from the trade with the Hellhounds. If a small ship comes to them, though, far away from prying Enclave eyes, and buys a load of weapons, luxuries, or whatever...

Anyway, just throwing some ideas and questions out there. Thoughts?

[Harmony Ltd.]

Hmm, let's see...

First, I'm kind of reminded of New Vegas' Boomers there. People know they exist, but mostly from the fact that they also know that it's very hazardous to their health to approach the area.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Enclave actually enforced some kind of "No [Man's] Land" a certain radius around Masozi, ensuring that no community starts settling close to Masozi; as it could possibly lead to the surface starting to trade with the Miliozi (for all their isolationism, I wouldn't be surprised if the Miliozi accepted to trade to some extent with Wastelanders for scavenged metals, gems, and other goodies).

If the Enclave doesn't enforce such a quarantine area, then maybe it could be that somewhere in the region there exists a perfectly normal and indistinguishable-from-any-other-wasteland-community town where traders regularly come and trade, dropping various goods, but mostly just old scrap metal and electronics (containing gems); in exchange for "scavenged", beaten-up but functional goods (a way for the Miliozi to dispose of old equipment at a profit).

Maybe disguised as a scrapyard, with some techy ponies working as some sort of cover on how this community is able to produce these goods?

Overall, I'm thinking some sort of cover-thing like Navarro in Fallout 2, where externally it's just an old gas-station, but it's actually a cover for an Enclave military base. Maybe we could also take back the idea of a secret tunnel linking the settlement with a drop-off point a few kilometers away where the Miliozi could discreetly handle the exchange of goods back toward Masozi?

It'd be funny if, when Red Eye's time come, he starts trading with the outpost, but actually starts wanting to trade newly manufactured weapons for scrap, ant the settlement is all "sorry buddy, but we ain't interested". Which could lead to Red Eye adding 2 and 2 together and understanding he actually has some sort of trading channel with the rumored Miliozi.


Although this all hinges on the Miliozi actually trusting Wastelanders enough to start trading with them, even through all the convoluted layers of protection and anonymity described above.


On the sea-trade... I do not know. Maybe the community described above could be disguising as a fishing port on the coast south of San Frantello, on the march of the Moojave? With the fishing boats actually being used as transports for the goods, and the fish exchanged with the caravans having been fished by the Miliozi fishing fleets?

That community could also be used as some sort of channel for the Miliozi to keep a tab on what is happening in the Equestrian Wasteland. Be it from the news that are being told by the traders, as it would be from using the place as a gateway to send under-cover agents around.

Funnily enough, it could even end up as a relatively large community, now that I think about it. After all, what I described above, is bound to attract a lot of traders: scraps for food is probably quite an attractive deal for wastelander traders.

The question is how the secrecy around the community activities would be enforced? My guess is that all the inhabitants of the city would probably be actual Miliozi, the little fraction that aren't Zebra. Meaning they would have needed to go through the whole training and indoctrination / acculturation cycle to ensure their loyalty (and all things being said, why wouldn't they be given how well they get to live?). The kids are probably shipped off really young to Masozi, with the locals saying that they were "sent off to family" if some strangers start to ask question.


And back to the GPE, it's funny to imagine them trying to wipe the town out of the map as a violation of the above evoked "No Man's Land", and being met with an impressive display of force as a barn reveals itself to actually be a vetribus hangar, and the water tower as actually being an anti-air battery. And then promptly deciding "you know what, better to stay out of this one."

Because if this can be interpreted as a violation of GPE groundspace, the Miliozi are still confined to their territory, and otherwise trying to actually go through with the menace of wiping out a Miliozi settlement is pretty sure to result in a state of total war between the Miliozi and the GPE. And for all their stupidity, I'm sure the GPE realize the foolishness of such an idea. So it's likely the local commanders would just let it slide without involving the higher ups.

Also, the town could be used as a diplomatic channel between the GPE and the Miliozi. Maybe with a lone pegasi with a Dashite cutie-mark decal? Or even an actual dashite-brand, being confined to the surface but still working for the GPE for some reason.

A Dashite who became a Miliozi and is now working as an interface between the Miliozi and the GPE? That would seem a bit far-fetched. Although we've seen far worse in term of contrived circumstances...



Or, you know what? I'm going full-on Tinfoil Hat there, but maybe there isn't a No Man's Land enforced by the GPE, and all the communities in a 30-50 kilometer radius around Masozi are actually populated by ponies who are secretly Miliozi?!

Although that may be too much a twist, but this could also explain how little resistance the Miliozi could have met post-SR when they decided to annex the whole region. And these communities could also act as a buffer for actual non-Miliozi to not start and get interested in starting to explore the region.

In short, one further layer of protection for the city of Masozi, with the added benefit that it allows to provide quite a bit of valuable intelligence on the Equestrian Wasteland and some amount of trade which can be redirected to Masozi.


*shrug* I dunno. Throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks. Thoughts so far?

[Harmony Ltd.]

Actually, I used the term "march of the Moojave", but it may actually be more appropriate than I thought?

After, all these actually-Miliozi village could be set up all around the San Frantello bay, considered by the GPE as actual Miliozi territory, and being used by the Miliozi as a form of decoy / misdirection / camouflage?


Still thowing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks.

[Harmony Ltd.]

And so as for how the place is perceived by the rest of the Wasteland, maybe for the San Frantello Bay Area it's:

"A place with good trade to be had, but don't try to hit the beach at night, ask too much questions about the ruins of San Frantello, the lights hovering in the sky at night over them, or the ships that can often be seen sailing there at night, where some of the goods come from... Actually, just don't ask any question: get on with your business and don't think about it. It's better for you, if you get what I mean."

[Harmony Ltd.]

And maybe that could be how the Miliozi gains a non-Zebra population at first?

Some people, maybe ghouls, start to settle the Bay Area a few decades after the Days of Fire; and some people with a vision in Masozi propose to not drive them away but integrate them into the Miliozi plans:

After all, if some people are already starting to try to colonize the place now, surely more and more and going to come in the years to come. So instead of expending resources to try and drive them away, why not use them?

This could also be a way for the Miliozi to have a non-Zebra population while limiting the number of non-zebra inside Masozi?

I don't know how racists the Miliozi actually are...

[O. Hinds]

First, I'm kind of reminded of New Vegas' Boomers there. People know they exist, but mostly from the fact that they also know that it's very hazardous to their health to approach the area.

Hm, yes, good comparison. Clearly some interesting stuff there, but getting too close is a substantial risk.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Enclave actually enforced some kind of "No [Man's] Land" a certain radius around Masozi, ensuring that no community starts settling close to Masozi; as it could possibly lead to the surface starting to trade with the Miliozi

Aye. It would also have the benefit of saying to the observing Miliozi "See, this really is our groundspace! Look at us taking action to control its borders!"

(for all their isolationism, I wouldn't be surprised if the Miliozi accepted to trade to some extent with Wastelanders for scavenged metals, gems, and other goodies)

I wouldn't call the Miliozi isolationist; their relative lack of interaction with the Equestrian Wasteland is pretty much entirely a result of the GPE, and they're active with other Alliance powers and in other regions. Perhaps you meant a different word? Or that they'd be perceived as isolationist by most people in the Equestrian Wasteland?

But regarding the trade, yeah. I mean, while the trade between the hellhounds and the Alliance isn't just with the Miliozi, it is through them and could keep going even if the rest of the Alliance pulled out; they can certainly do this sort of thing.

Overall, I'm thinking some sort of cover-thing like Navarro in Fallout 2, where externally it's just an old gas-station, but it's actually a cover for an Enclave military base. Maybe we could also take back the idea of a secret tunnel linking the settlement with a drop-off point a few kilometers away where the Miliozi could discreetly handle the exchange of goods back toward Masozi?

...Actually, yeah. I was thinking that the whole town thing probably wasn't an option, since the quarantine zone would probably would indeed be there, but, well, there's already a tunnel for the hellhound trade. Add an exit to the surface on the other side of the quarantine zone, some version of the town idea could work.

Selling old equipment might be tricky, though; the Miliozi would likely be hesitant about arming potential enemies, even with old weapons, and there's the concern that someone would notice that this town is somehow scavenging a lot of unfamiliar weapons that don't appear to have existed in wartime Equestria, or during the war at all. And things like fresh food would raise questions even more quickly... Hm...

It'd be funny if, when Red Eye's time come, he starts trading with the outpost, but actually starts wanting to trade newly manufactured weapons for scrap, ant the settlement is all "sorry buddy, but we ain't interested". Which could lead to Red Eye adding 2 and 2 together and understanding he actually has some sort of trading channel with the rumored Miliozi.

Hm. He'd probably already have visited the Alliance by that point, but, then again, if he took another route, there's no reason he'd necessarily know about this scheme, yeah.

Although this all hinges on the Miliozi actually trusting Wastelanders enough to start trading with them, even through all the convoluted layers of protection and anonymity described above.

Well, again, it depends on what the trade's in. Materiel, probably not. Maybe ammunition for weapons already in the Wasteland, but more than that, at least to general customers, seems iffy to me. Oh, and there's the additional concern I just thought of that ponies might use those weapons on hellhounds and thereby pose a danger to that relationship. So maybe not even ammunition.

On the sea-trade... I do not know. Maybe the community described above could be disguising as a fishing port on the coast south of San Frantello, on the march of the Moojave? With the fishing boats actually being used as transports for the goods, and the fish exchanged with the caravans having been fished by the Miliozi fishing fleets?

Ah, now, I'm not sure how practical the boat transport would be and think that it would probably be a better idea to put the town to the north or maybe east (though both east and south would require going underwater; that ought to be doable, but it would likely be at least somewhat more difficult) than to the south (considering, among other things, the SPP coverage (including the potential of boosting the radius of the tower west of the old power plant) and the likely resultant borders of the GPE's claimed groundspace), but the fish, there's an idea. Most ponies buying fish from an apparent fishing village are probably just going to assume that the village caught them; a lot of fish and/or lots of good fish means good fisherponies. Very few would stop to wait, take data, and work out that the village was selling much more and better than it seemed to be bringing in. And now we have a plausible trade good! If they're fishing the bay, they could even warn people away from "San Frantello" itself, spreading all sorts of contradictory rumors and telling people not to go down that end or try to get out to sea (...Oh, or just tell that that if they go into the sunlight, the pegasi will probably shoot them. Ocean fishing might be better... though then that exposes them to Alliance ocean traffic... Hm...). Or, alternatively, they could drive ponies towards the city, if they wanted a show for the GPE, or take them into the tunnel if they actually wanted them. Gain additional control over the situation, basically.

That community could also be used as some sort of channel for the Miliozi to keep a tab on what is happening in the Equestrian Wasteland. Be it from the news that are being told by the traders, as it would be from using the place as a gateway to send under-cover agents around.

Oh, and that in the other direction, yes!

Oh, hm, actually, I was playing about with the maps a bit:

So this could end up as about the length of the Seikan Tunnel. That's probably doable with hellhound labor, but we'd be looking at a pretty major engineering project just to connect with a decoy fishing village. That got me thinking, though: if this is a village by the coast anyway, why does the transport have to be under land? Much easier to just secretly excavate a submarine dock under the village, perhaps? Mind, the hellhounds might still prefer to dig a long tunnel, which, being already extant, could then be used, but the hellhounds might also prefer to dig their tunnel to the village (or, rather, the increasingly elaborate-looking secret facility built under the village) rather than all the way to Masozi. Hm. And using submarines would allow a larger number of potential places to put the village, too, perhaps... Of course, the fish and everything else would have to be transported by cargo submarine... Well, thoughts?

Oh, and do you think that the GPE could extent that tower's radius or not?

Funnily enough, it could even end up as a relatively large community, now that I think about it. After all, what I described above, is bound to attract a lot of traders: scraps for food is probably quite an attractive deal for wastelander traders.

Hm. Possibly.

The question is how the secrecy around the community activities would be enforced? My guess is that all the inhabitants of the city would probably be actual Miliozi, the little fraction that aren't Zebra. Meaning they would have needed to go through the whole training and indoctrination / acculturation cycle to ensure their loyalty (and all things being said, why wouldn't they be given how well they get to live?). The kids are probably shipped off really young to Masozi, with the locals saying that they were "sent off to family" if some strangers start to ask question.

Hm... I'm not sure that there're enough of them for that. Few outsiders join the Miliozi, and only some of them are ponies There's no stable breeding population of ponies in the Miliozi either, I think, due to how few join. Now, keeping the village filled with ponies loyal to the Alliance, that's easy: just send in Company employees. The base could still be run mostly by the Miliozi, especially if it's connected to Masozi via tunnel, and the lower levels filled with zebra Miliozi, but the Company would, on behalf of the Miliozi, put on the act up top. The Miliozi would of course be very happy to have the Company controlling their trade in yet another way, though, so now I'm wondering if they'd go so far as to rescue or "rescue" pony foals from the Equestrian Wasteland to raise as Miliozi and stock the village with. Actually, this endeavor might end up being the start of a breeding population of pony Miliozi already established by the time of FoE... Might also encourage a few more outside ponies to join... Thoughts?

and being met with an impressive display of force as a barn reveals itself to actually be a vetribus hangar

...Well, um, I think you may be misremembering something there, because if a Vetribus gets involved in combat, it's almost certainly a bad day for the people running it. The Vetribi are the high-altitude cloaking-device-equipped long-endurance observation aircraft. Even the Miliozi don't generally try to fight in them. :)

Because if this can be interpreted as a violation of GPE groundspace, the Miliozi are still confined to their territory, and otherwise trying to actually go through with the menace of wiping out a Miliozi settlement is pretty sure to result in a state of total war between the Miliozi and the GPE. And for all their stupidity, I'm sure the GPE realize the foolishness of such an idea. So it's likely the local commanders would just let it slide without involving the higher ups.

Oh,and it's possibly worse than that. Even if the Miliozi didn't respond, the Wasteland has just seen, depending on how in-the-know they are, either that A: there's some really powerful group out there who can fight off the Enclave but are willing to trade with us (and maybe we ought to see what other ways they're willing to work with us) or B: the "Grand" Pegasus Enclave couldn't even destroy a fishing village in an unprovoked surprise attack (and maybe we ought to see what else we have that can beat them).
If the GPE found out, I can imagine them swiftly officially not having found out. As long as this is kept quiet enough, it's pretty clear that they're better off looking the other way. At least in the short term, but, well, while the GPE does have competent leaders, they appear to be in somewhat short supply. And Las Pegasus, the headquaters of the covert Alliance quarantine, well, as demonstrated by their actions when the GPE broke up, they had a rather pragmatic view of the situation; if the GPE acts early enough to beat the Alliance, the Las Pegasus and the rest of the GPE win, and if it doesn't act that early, Las Pegasus and the rest of the Alliance win. Good long-term planning for Las Pegasus!

Also, the town could be used as a diplomatic channel between the GPE and the Miliozi. Maybe with a lone pegasi with a Dashite cutie-mark decal?

Oh, hm, and then you bring that up. Yes, a possibility, if the GPE found out and then managed to forget about finding out in the right partial way. Though, given the Las Pegasus thing above, I'd not be surprised if some of the exchanges were even less-legal and less-reported-to-Neighvarro than the rest. Not sure exactly how it would work, but it could probably be made to. Hm. On the other hand, though, if Neighvarro found out about that and thought (probably correctly) that the Alliance was now starting operations directly against the GPE... That they might have to respond to. Hm. Thoughts?

Or even an actual dashite-brand, being confined to the surface but still working for the GPE for some reason.

A Dashite who became a Miliozi and is now working as an interface between the Miliozi and the GPE? That would seem a bit far-fetched. Although we've seen far worse in term of contrived circumstances...

A bit farfetched, and possible really interesting around Cauterize time. I suspect that that particular Dashite's records would be "lost", oh no, no way to find them now, better not even bother looking and they're definitely not over in that fishing village we accidentally didn't assign anymore to burn.
That said, I doubt an actual Dashite would be up for this job. A framed one, maybe, if one was available, but then they'd probably have problems Enclave-side resulting from the reason they were framed. A true Dashite, though? Desert a junta not helping the Equestrian Wasteland to join a stratocracy not helping the Equestrian Wasteland? And then help the stratocracy and junta work together to continue not helping the Equestrian Wasteland? I'm not really seeing that.

Or, you know what? I'm going full-on Tinfoil Hat there, but maybe there isn't a No Man's Land enforced by the GPE, and all the communities in a 30-50 kilometer radius around Masozi are actually populated by ponies who are secretly Miliozi?!

Hm. Well, I think that there probably would be a no mare's land (for lack of a better name), so not that close. The communities beyond could be, but... Hm... It doesn't seem especially likely to me. They'd be so restricted by the need for secrecy that it's probably much more useful to put them elsewhere. If relieving population pressure in Masozi is a concern, there are plenty of place for military based in the Alliance heartland and on the frontier, places where there's no GPE to have to hide from.

In short, one further layer of protection for the city of Masozi, with the added benefit that it allows to provide quite a bit of valuable intelligence on the Equestrian Wasteland and some amount of trade which can be redirected to Masozi.

Probably not all that much more intelligence than the fishing village and other assets, though, and probably not much additional protection. Unless they were setting up hidden fields of weapon emplacements, forming a true military alliance with the hellhounds, and the like, and that might be enough to spook the GPE into action.

Actually, I used the term "march of the Moojave", but it may actually be more appropriate than I thought?

After, all these actually-Miliozi village could be set up all around the San Frantello bay, considered by the GPE as actual Miliozi territory, and being used by the Miliozi as a form of decoy / misdirection / camouflage?

Hm... Maybe? Controlling the shores of the bay, that might be useful, and focussed enough that the GPE would allow it... It would make policing contact between the Wasteland and the Alliance obviously more difficult, though...
Hm...
I don't know, sorry. Could perhaps go either way.

By the way, wasn't there talk at some point of having a slaver town in this area?

And so as for how the place is perceived by the rest of the Wasteland, maybe for the San Frantello Bay Area it's:

"A place with good trade to be had, but don't try to hit the beach at night, ask too much questions about the ruins of San Frantello, the lights hovering in the sky at night over them, or the ships that can often be seen sailing there at night, where some of the goods come from... Actually, just don't ask any question: get on with your business and don't think about it. It's better for you, if you get what I mean."

Maybe. Something like that, I think. The Guide might give less information than that, saying it's safer if you just don't ask about the city and details at all unless you really need to know, but rumors and other such talk would often be less careful.

And maybe that could be how the Miliozi gains a non-Zebra population at first?

Some people, maybe ghouls, start to settle the Bay Area a few decades after the Days of Fire; and some people with a vision in Masozi propose to not drive them away but integrate them into the Miliozi plans:

After all, if some people are already starting to try to colonize the place now, surely more and more and going to come in the years to come. So instead of expending resources to try and drive them away, why not use them?

This could also be a way for the Miliozi to have a non-Zebra population while limiting the number of non-zebra inside Masozi?

Well, it could lead to such a population, as I thought of further up in this post, but I'm not sure it would happen the way you propose here. Even if the Miliozi decided to let those people live under them, that's not the same thing as bringing them in. Possibly some of the subject population would choose to try to join and manage it, yes (or be taken as babies and raised into it, possibly), but without that, someone looking at the Miliozi and the newcomers would see not a stratocracy but a military oligarchy with a very, very small civilian population. At most the Miliozi might create multiple subject classes so that not everyone under them would be equally without rights.

I don't know how racists the Miliozi actually are...

Not much at all, really. They're sometimes a bit inclined to be pro-zebra, but only a bit. For the most part, though, a zebra who isn't a member of the Miliozi isn't automatically given preference over other outsiders. Anyone raised in the Miliozi is Miliozi, whatever they look like on the outside, though (and any zebra Miliozi who, during their shared foalhoods with the non-zebras, dispute this are reminded of it), and both zebras and non-zebras wanting to join can expect about the same (very difficult) time proving time proving themselves worthy. Mind you, some zebras could have cultural advantages (knowing the language, for example) for which other species would have to have extra studying, but that's not really the same issue.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Lots of stuff there. I'll try to answer as best as I could. Some stuff may slip out of my attention, so don't hesitate to bring it up again if you want to.

I wouldn't call the Miliozi isolationist; their relative lack of interaction with the Equestrian Wasteland is pretty much entirely a result of the GPE, and they're active with other Alliance powers and in other regions. Perhaps you meant a different word? Or that they'd be perceived as isolationist by most people in the Equestrian Wasteland?

But regarding the trade, yeah. I mean, while the trade between the hellhounds and the Alliance isn't just with the Miliozi, it is through them and could keep going even if the rest of the Alliance pulled out; they can certainly do this sort of thing.

"Or that they'd be perceived as isolationist by most people in the Equestrian Wasteland?" This at the very least. I mean, for all people know, approaching them is a lethal danger, so...

Selling old equipment might be tricky, though; the Miliozi would likely be hesitant about arming potential enemies, even with old weapons, and there's the concern that someone would notice that this town is somehow scavenging a lot of unfamiliar weapons that don't appear to have existed in wartime Equestria, or during the war at all. And things like fresh food would raise questions even more quickly... Hm...

Well, again, it depends on what the trade's in. Materiel, probably not. Maybe ammunition for weapons already in the Wasteland, but more than that, at least to general customers, seems iffy to me. Oh, and there's the additional concern I just thought of that ponies might use those weapons on hellhounds and thereby pose a danger to that relationship. So maybe not even ammunition.

Yeah, I was also thinking selling equipment might not be an option. Fish is probably the best bet there.

...Actually, yeah. I was thinking that the whole town thing probably wasn't an option, since the quarantine zone would probably would indeed be there, but, well, there's already a tunnel for the hellhound trade. Add an exit to the surface on the other side of the quarantine zone, some version of the town idea could work.

Oh, and do you think that the GPE could extent that tower's radius or not?

If this extension allows for a town to be built on the San Frantello Bay while still being under the cloud cover, that'd be interesting from a story point of view. We'd have to find a justification for the boosted range, though. I suppose the simple fact San Frantello's tower is down can be more than enough justification there?

Ah, now, I'm not sure how practical the boat transport would be and think that it would probably be a better idea to put the town to the north or maybe east (though both east and south would require going underwater; that ought to be doable, but it would likely be at least somewhat more difficult) than to the south (considering, among other things, the SPP coverage (including the potential of boosting the radius of the tower west of the old power plant) and the likely resultant borders of the GPE's claimed groundspace), but the fish, there's an idea. Most ponies buying fish from an apparent fishing village are probably just going to assume that the village caught them; a lot of fish and/or lots of good fish means good fisherponies. Very few would stop to wait, take data, and work out that the village was selling much more and better than it seemed to be bringing in. And now we have a plausible trade good! If they're fishing the bay, they could even warn people away from "San Frantello" itself, spreading all sorts of contradictory rumors and telling people not to go down that end or try to get out to sea (...Oh, or just tell that that if they go into the sunlight, the pegasi will probably shoot them. Ocean fishing might be better... though then that exposes them to Alliance ocean traffic... Hm...). Or, alternatively, they could drive ponies towards the city, if they wanted a show for the GPE, or take them into the tunnel if they actually wanted them. Gain additional control over the situation, basically.

I agree with all of that.

So this could end up as about the length of the Seikan Tunnel. That's probably doable with hellhound labor, but we'd be looking at a pretty major engineering project just to connect with a decoy fishing village. That got me thinking, though: if this is a village by the coast anyway, why does the transport have to be under land? Much easier to just secretly excavate a submarine dock under the village, perhaps? Mind, the hellhounds might still prefer to dig a long tunnel, which, being already extant, could then be used, but the hellhounds might also prefer to dig their tunnel to the village (or, rather, the increasingly elaborate-looking secret facility built under the village) rather than all the way to Masozi. Hm. And using submarines would allow a larger number of potential places to put the village, too, perhaps... Of course, the fish and everything else would have to be transported by cargo submarine... Well, thoughts?

Yeah, a tunnel that long might be a bit much. That's, among other things, why I suggested using the fishing boats as a form of transport (because I doubt there's that much raw volume of trade with the Wasteland). The idea of submarine cargo is interesting, though. Given Elusive's background, I wouldn't be surprised if he had designs for cargo submarines up his metaphorical sleeves.

I have this vision of a submarine being designed to load and unload a standard cargo container. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_submarine

And who doesn't like secret underwater bases?

Hm... I'm not sure that there're enough of them for that. Few outsiders join the Miliozi, and only some of them are ponies There's no stable breeding population of ponies in the Miliozi either, I think, due to how few join. Now, keeping the village filled with ponies loyal to the Alliance, that's easy: just send in Company employees. The base could still be run mostly by the Miliozi, especially if it's connected to Masozi via tunnel, and the lower levels filled with zebra Miliozi, but the Company would, on behalf of the Miliozi, put on the act up top. The Miliozi would of course be very happy to have the Company controlling their trade in yet another way, though, so now I'm wondering if they'd go so far as to rescue or "rescue" pony foals from the Equestrian Wasteland to raise as Miliozi and stock the village with. Actually, this endeavor might end up being the start of a breeding population of pony Miliozi already established by the time of FoE... Might also encourage a few more outside ponies to join... Thoughts?

I hadn't thought about it being manned by Company employees, but that makes sense, yes. And while I'm not exactly the expert on the Miliozi's culture, I could see them deciding to start breeding a pony population. If only to serve as agents in the Wasteland, if anything.

Though that'd ask the question of how they'd manage to pass as ordinary wastelander ponies if they literally grew up as Miliozi, with their culture and training. Unless they spend years in immersion training to pass as a Wastelander, they're sure to be detected as not being normal wastelanders quite easily.

I suppose that could be yet another role of the city? To train these young foals what the Wasteland is like, and how to blend in?

...Well, um, I think you may be misremembering something there, because if a Vetribus gets involved in combat, it's almost certainly a bad day for the people running it. The Vetribi are the high-altitude cloaking-device-equipped long-endurance observation aircraft. Even the Miliozi don't generally try to fight in them. :)

Well, shit, yeah. I was thinking of whatever name you named the half-plane half-helicopter abominations that are the workhorses of the Alliance air forceS

Oh, hm, and then you bring that up. Yes, a possibility, if the GPE found out and then managed to forget about finding out in the right partial way. Though, given the Las Pegasus thing above, I'd not be surprised if some of the exchanges were even less-legal and less-reported-to-Neighvarro than the rest. Not sure exactly how it would work, but it could probably be made to. Hm. On the other hand, though, if Neighvarro found out about that and thought (probably correctly) that the Alliance was now starting operations directly against the GPE... That they might have to respond to. Hm. Thoughts?

Oh, hm, and then you bring that up. Yes, a possibility, if the GPE found out and then managed to forget about finding out in the right partial way. Though, given the Las Pegasus thing above, I'd not be surprised if some of the exchanges were even less-legal and less-reported-to-Neighvarro than the rest. Not sure exactly how it would work, but it could probably be made to. Hm. On the other hand, though, if Neighvarro found out about that and thought (probably correctly) that the Alliance was now starting operations directly against the GPE... That they might have to respond to. Hm. Thoughts?

The agents of the Ministry of Awesome managed to dupe Neighvarro in major ways for a very long time if you follow PH canon, so I wouldn't be surprised if just framing a poor sod, or even having that sod having volunteered to be framed for the needs of the Enclave, is a thing that could have happened.
Remember Lighthoove.

By the way, wasn't there talk at some point of having a slaver town in this area?

Not my idea. Either your's, or Silentcarto, Icy Shake or Meleagridis. Probably the later. I think it's in the first few pages of the first topic, two years ago.

[O. Hinds]

"Or that they'd be perceived as isolationist by most people in the Equestrian Wasteland?" This at the very least. I mean, for all people know, approaching them is a lethal danger, so...

Right.

If this extension allows for a town to be built on the San Frantello Bay while still being under the cloud cover, that'd be interesting from a story point of view. We'd have to find a justification for the boosted range, though. I suppose the simple fact San Frantello's tower is down can be more than enough justification there?

A justification for how or for why? For the why, yes, no problem there. The how is the potential problem, as I see it; it depends on whether the smaller-radius towers are of the same design but with different or actually a different, less powerful design.

Yeah, a tunnel that long might be a bit much. That's, among other things, why I suggested using the fishing boats as a form of transport (because I doubt there's that much raw volume of trade with the Wasteland). The idea of submarine cargo is interesting, though. Given Elusive's background, I wouldn't be surprised if he had designs for cargo submarines up his metaphorical sleeves.

I'm not sure the submarine designs would come from Elusive, but the Alliance, if it doesn't have them already, could definitely make them, yeah.

I have this vision of a submarine being designed to load and unload a standard cargo container. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_submarine

I've read of those before, yes. :)
Good idea about the containerization.

Though that'd ask the question of how they'd manage to pass as ordinary wastelander ponies if they literally grew up as Miliozi, with their culture and training. Unless they spend years in immersion training to pass as a Wastelander, they're sure to be detected as not being normal wastelanders quite easily.

Aye, but that applies to any Miliozi on this mission.

I suppose that could be yet another role of the city? To train these young foals what the Wasteland is like, and how to blend in?

Hm. I'm not sure whether it would be better to have the village be for training or be something trained for. I mean, it would be a combination of both, but the question is which it would be more of.

Well, shit, yeah. I was thinking of whatever name you named the half-plane half-helicopter abominations that are the workhorses of the Alliance air forceS

Rotodaens. :)

The agents of the Ministry of Awesome managed to dupe Neighvarro in major ways for a very long time if you follow PH canon, so I wouldn't be surprised if just framing a poor sod, or even having that sod having volunteered to be framed for the needs of the Enclave, is a thing that could have happened.
Remember Lighthoove.

Yes, but why bother instead of just using a disguise? Slap a decal on when going down and talk about how horrible the pegasi are, the surfacers not in the know think you're just another Dashite. Peel it off when you get back up (making sure the guards recognize you, of course) and you don't have to hide away to prevent common citizens asking awkward questions about why a Dashite is still wandering around the GPE.

Not my idea. Either your's, or Silentcarto, Icy Shake or Meleagridis. Probably the later. I think it's in the first few pages of the first topic, two years ago.

[shrugs]

[Harmony Ltd.]

A justification for how or for why? For the why, yes, no problem there. The how is the potential problem, as I see it; it depends on whether the smaller-radius towers are of the same design but with different or actually a different, less powerful design.

You've probably studied the question more than me, so what would be your thought there? My first guess would be that smaller-radius towers are of a scaled-down design, in order to save resources during their construction (considering how much resources went into the Single Pegasus Project, I'd be inclined to think such measures of economy would have been welcomed, or even forced upon the Ministry of Awesome, even if Rainbow Dash may have bitched about it being un-cool).

I guess the increased range then could come from jury-rigging the tower to work over its nominal capacity, by pumping more power into it or something similar. Which, logically, would also have the very fun possibility of carrying increased risk of hardware failure, or worse.

It'd be funny if somehow the weather was notably more unstable under that tower, with frequent thunderstorms, hailstorms, etc...

*shrug* Thoughts?

I'm not sure the submarine designs would come from Elusive, but the Alliance, if it doesn't have them already, could definitely make them, yeah.

Didn't the Pax Roamana have a major submarine pen in the Sea of Equestria?

I wouldn't be surprised if during the War, the PR had started using some amount of submarine cargos in order to deliver stuff at Dawn Bay, in order to avoid its convoys being blasted from the sky by marauding bands of Raptors.

I guess some may also have been used to break the blockade of the straight of Gibhalter, or even during the actual Last Offensive that saw the proto-Miliozi land on San Frantello and establish their beach-head there.

Plus, this could be another nod at the fact that the Miliozi are kind of a Shi stand-in if they landed with (among other ships) a submarine in San Frantello.

Thoughts?

Yes, but why bother instead of just using a disguise? Slap a decal on when going down and talk about how horrible the pegasi are, the surfacers not in the know think you're just another Dashite. Peel it off when you get back up (making sure the guards recognize you, of course) and you don't have to hide away to prevent common citizens asking awkward questions about why a Dashite is still wandering around the GPE.

I guess it depends on how convincing the "decal" is. the whole cutie-mark area would need to look like scar-tissue (the actual cutie-mark being chemically burned off), with the dashite brand being done with a red-hot iron. And still with a number of strands of fur hair here and there.
This might be a pain to maintain such a complex piece of makeup consistent for several years on end. And also not have it fail at the most inopportune moments.

[O. Hinds]

You've probably studied the question more than me, so what would be your thought there? My first guess would be that smaller-radius towers are of a scaled-down design, in order to save resources during their construction (considering how much resources went into the Single Pegasus Project, I'd be inclined to think such measures of economy would have been welcomed, or even forced upon the Ministry of Awesome, even if Rainbow Dash may have bitched about it being un-cool).

Yes, good point.

I guess the increased range then could come from jury-rigging the tower to work over its nominal capacity, by pumping more power into it or something similar. Which, logically, would also have the very fun possibility of carrying increased risk of hardware failure, or worse.

Oh, yes, that's a possibility, I suppose. Almost half the expanded coverage, including Las Pegasus and the areas visited in FoE, would consist of overlap zones, too, which would probably help. Of course, they'd have to get the designs and materials from somewhere. I suspect Thunderhead for the former, but I'm not sure about the latter. There's also the concern about breakages; this might end up one of the most heavily-staffed towers.

...Hm. If they're going to modify and staff the tower anyway, do you think they'd go further and built a military base of some sort on it?

It'd be funny if somehow the weather was notably more unstable under that tower, with frequent thunderstorms, hailstorms, etc...

Hm... I'm not sure. Do you think the juryrigging would have that effect? I suppose it depends on the details of the modifications...

...Hm. Thought. If they put a military base there, they'd have a facility (atop a projection from the ground somewhat reminiscent of this, perhaps) in an area with potentially rougher weather and near an area of strategic and secret importance. So, what about their primary special operations complex, Wonderbolts included? That could get interesting when the GPE collapses, Las Pegasus jumps airship for the Alliance, and the Miliozi claim the ground around the tower.

Didn't the Pax Roamana have a major submarine pen in the Sea of Equestria?

Aye, in Aquimania.

I wouldn't be surprised if during the War, the PR had started using some amount of submarine cargos in order to deliver stuff at Dawn Bay, in order to avoid its convoys being blasted from the sky by marauding bands of Raptors.

Oh, aye, supplies to Dawn Bay, troops and materiel to Hoofington... lots of applications for the submarines there.

I guess some may also have been used to break the blockade of the straight of Gibhalter, or even during the actual Last Offensive that saw the proto-Miliozi land on San Frantello and establish their beach-head there.

Hm, I'm not sure how useful cargo submarines would have been there, but then again, if they already had some sort of amphibious assault ship submarine design, yes, that could have been used in both.

Plus, this could be another nod at the fact that the Miliozi are kind of a Shi stand-in if they landed with (among other ships) a submarine in San Frantello.

Aye. :)

I guess it depends on how convincing the "decal" is. the whole cutie-mark area would need to look like scar-tissue (the actual cutie-mark being chemically burned off), with the dashite brand being done with a red-hot iron. And still with a number of strands of fur hair here and there.
This might be a pain to maintain such a complex piece of makeup consistent for several years on end. And also not have it fail at the most inopportune moments.

Hm, yes, good point. And if it's only being seen from a distance, clothing or some other covering would work fine. Interesting niche here, then. If I were in charge of this operation, I'd be very concerned about the operative's loyalty. After all, they're effectively banished from all but a few secure areas in the GPE, for as long as they (and the GPE) live, and they're constantly, by the nature of their job, exposed to the temptation to defect to the Alliance.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Oh, yes, that's a possibility, I suppose. Almost half the expanded coverage, including Las Pegasus and the areas visited in FoE, would consist of overlap zones, too, which would probably help. Of course, they'd have to get the designs and materials from somewhere. I suspect Thunderhead for the former, but I'm not sure about the latter. There's also the concern about breakages; this might end up one of the most heavily-staffed towers.

...Hm. If they're going to modify and staff the tower anyway, do you think they'd go further and built a military base of some sort on it?

Depends on how many staff they actually end up putting there. Considerring most SPP towers, as far as I know, worked as intended for over 200 years without being staffed, or even maintained; the increased wear & tear could maybe be handled simply by remotely monitoring the installation from, say, Las Pegasus, and sending technicians as needed.

Because otherwise permanently staffing the tower means, in practice, establishing a new Enclave settlement, with all the difficulties this would entail given the logistics situation of the Enclave (IIRC it's pretty much established in PH, unless I critically misunderstood it, that outside of Thunderhead and Neighvarro the standard of living in the Enclave is comparable to Stable 99 in term of "shit could come crashing down at any moment").

And even if the fact it's a military base would maybe put it at a higher priority when it comes for rations and hardware to be allocated to it, we have to remember that pretty much everything in the Enclave is "military" to one degree or another.

...Hm. Thought. If they put a military base there, they'd have a facility (atop a projection from the ground somewhat reminiscent of this, perhaps) in an area with potentially rougher weather and near an area of strategic and secret importance. So, what about their primary special operations complex, Wonderbolts included? That could get interesting when the GPE collapses, Las Pegasus jumps airship for the Alliance, and the Miliozi claim the ground around the tower.

This could be interesting, yes. This would be a better justification for a settlement to be grafted on the tower, instead of it being primarily for maintenance purposes.

Although I suppose for the Enclave people's consumption, the official word could be that maintaining the tower is indeed the primary purpose of such a settlement. Add-in regular "news" of "yet another breakdown of [whatever it end up being called] SPP tower" for believability of the cover.

Hm, I'm not sure how useful cargo submarines would have been there, but then again, if they already had some sort of amphibious assault ship submarine design, yes, that could have been used in both.

Well, if the PR was launching everything that it had in one last desperate assault as it launched the bombs, knowing full well it was literally an All-or-Nothing affair, I suppose they could have decided to affect all their remaining ships to the attack. Including ships that weren't intended for such a role in the first place.

If I were in charge of this operation, I'd be very concerned about the operative's loyalty. After all, they're effectively banished from all but a few secure areas in the GPE, for as long as they (and the GPE) live, and they're constantly, by the nature of their job, exposed to the temptation to defect to the Alliance.

Pretty much. If one were inclined as much, one could even think of telling a whole story centered about the intrigues surrounding that kind of character and their environment.

[O. Hinds]

Depends on how many staff they actually end up putting there. Considerring most SPP towers, as far as I know, worked as intended for over 200 years without being staffed, or even maintained; the increased wear & tear could maybe be handled simply by remotely monitoring the installation from, say, Las Pegasus, and sending technicians as needed.

Because otherwise permanently staffing the tower means, in practice, establishing a new Enclave settlement, with all the difficulties this would entail given the logistics situation of the Enclave (IIRC it's pretty much established in PH, unless I critically misunderstood it, that outside of Thunderhead and Neighvarro the standard of living in the Enclave is comparable to Stable 99 in term of "shit could come crashing down at any moment").

Hm, aye, those are some good points. This would be much earlier in the timeline, before things got nearly so bad, though... Do you think that that might be enough?

And even if the fact it's a military base would maybe put it at a higher priority when it comes for rations and hardware to be allocated to it, we have to remember that pretty much everything in the Enclave is "military" to one degree or another.

I'm not sure I'd go that far. We know they had a sizable population of at least largely-civilians. Or is your interpretation different?

Although I suppose for the Enclave people's consumption, the official word could be that maintaining the tower is indeed the primary purpose of such a settlement. Add-in regular "news" of "yet another breakdown of [whatever it end up being called] SPP tower" for believability of the cover.

You think that they'd hide the purpose of the base? I don't know. I think that they'd hide what went on there, certainly, but the Wonderbolts at least are celebrities. Using the rough weather and out-of-the-way location as excuses (Moojave towers are further away from the GPE's population centers, I think, but there's also a balance regarding actually getting to the place, response times, etc.; I think it's plausible), this could be known as the place where the best of the best go to train and then get sent out on all sorts of exciting, secret missions (not including pacifying Thunderhead, I imagine, mostly because Neighvarro wanted a big show there instead of a surgical strike... and I'm not sure how good the majority of the best of the GPE's best would actually be). Isn't the Enclave awesome? Don't you want to be awesome too, and maybe even be awesome enough to get to go to <whatever the name is>?
That sort of thing. The Alliance first doesn't really have any way to secretly spy on the GPE above the clouds and then, once the Vetribi are deployed, can be assumed to be able to spy on the GPE anywhere above the clouds. It seems to me that hiding the facility's existence wouldn't do much against the Alliance, particularly since, in the event of a war, they'd probably go for this tower anyway. And the GPE doesn't at that time have any other enemies who'd know or be able to do anything about it. Why go to all that trouble, then, when you can just hide what exactly goes on there and use the place's existence for morale and publicity? Oh, and especially if you have a few secondary special ops facilities that you do want to conceal the existence of; it'll be assumed that you have at least one, so let that one draw the attention and leave your enemies guessing about where others, if they even exist, might be.
Thoughts?

Well, if the PR was launching everything that it had in one last desperate assault as it launched the bombs, knowing full well it was literally an All-or-Nothing affair, I suppose they could have decided to affect all their remaining ships to the attack. Including ships that weren't intended for such a role in the first place.

Good point. Maybe even just charge a beach at speed, beach the boat as far from the shore as the charge will slide it, and blast a hole in the side of the hull for the troops to pour out of. Or fill the cargo hold with missiles, surface somewhere inconvenient for Equestria, open the door, and fire.

Pretty much. If one were inclined as much, one could even think of telling a whole story centered about the intrigues surrounding that kind of character and their environment.

Yeah. :)
I mean, you're actively and heavily disincentivising your agent from being loyal to you, exiling them from your country (which is the only place your currency is good), and then sending them to work with people who could quite plausibly give them a large pension, lots of luxuries to buy with it (many of them difficult or impossible for even the elite back home to get), a house on a sunny beach, and a harem (to hopefully breed more pegasi with). And if they prefer military discipline and asceticism but also want a better chance of being on the winning side, hey, the Alliance has that too. How do you keep someone loyal in that situation? Keeping a family member they love hostage, if they have one, would work... except that, if you somehow lose that family member and they find out, you're then pretty much certain to lose them. Implanted control device? You trust that you can put something in that Elusive's medical robots can't take out?

[O. Hinds]

And yes, you can pick someone who seems to be a fierce patriot, who's so proud of their country that the idea of them betraying it, even if they can't see it anymore, no matter how bad it gets and how much they're offered, is almost inconceivable.  Almost.  But you can never really be sure...

[Harmony Ltd.]

Sorry for taking that long to reply, I was binge-watching a show.

I'm not sure I'd go that far. We know they had a sizable population of at least largely-civilians. Or is your interpretation different?

They do have a sizeable civilian population, yes. In my point of view, though, I tend to see the GPE as having, in a large measure (if not completely the same way), the same sort of "Military First" kind of political orientation that North Korea has. As far as I understand it, they still live under a siege mentality, constantly preparing for war. From this bred-culture of "we could be attacked at any moment", they justify the Enclave to still be under the command of a Military Junta. A junta which then work on to support its interests by allocating resources in priority to the military or dual-purpose programs / infrastructures.

Basically, it seems to me, from what little we've been able to observe, that politics in the GPE is mostly analyzed under the angle of "How might X decision allow us to gain an edge in any future conflict?", or more cynically "How can it help us stay in power?".

You think that they'd hide the purpose of the base? I don't know. I think that they'd hide what went on there, certainly, but the Wonderbolts at least are celebrities. Using the rough weather and out-of-the-way location as excuses (Moojave towers are further away from the GPE's population centers, I think, but there's also a balance regarding actually getting to the place, response times, etc.; I think it's plausible), this could be known as the place where the best of the best go to train and then get sent out on all sorts of exciting, secret missions (not including pacifying Thunderhead, I imagine, mostly because Neighvarro wanted a big show there instead of a surgical strike... and I'm not sure how good the majority of the best of the GPE's best would actually be). Isn't the Enclave awesome? Don't you want to be awesome too, and maybe even be awesome enough to get to go to <whatever the name is>?
That sort of thing. The Alliance first doesn't really have any way to secretly spy on the GPE above the clouds and then, once the Vetribi are deployed, can be assumed to be able to spy on the GPE anywhere above the clouds. It seems to me that hiding the facility's existence wouldn't do much against the Alliance, particularly since, in the event of a war, they'd probably go for this tower anyway. And the GPE doesn't at that time have any other enemies who'd know or be able to do anything about it. Why go to all that trouble, then, when you can just hide what exactly goes on there and use the place's existence for morale and publicity? Oh, and especially if you have a few secondary special ops facilities that you do want to conceal the existence of; it'll be assumed that you have at least one, so let that one draw the attention and leave your enemies guessing about where others, if they even exist, might be.
Thoughts?

Good points overall. It's a balancing act, I suppose.

Hmm... Now I'm wondering the it could be one of the few holdings the <new Enclave may have decided to keep for their strategic importance after the relocation to Freidrischorfen? This'd give them a foothold / enclave (lower case e) inside Miliozi territory, after having lost Las Pegasus.

And unless the Alliance decides to "storm the castle" and kick the remaining Enclave forces out of the tower... This could lead to interesting possibilities, I suppose?

Good point. Maybe even just charge a beach at speed, beach the boat as far from the shore as the charge will slide it, and blast a hole in the side of the hull for the troops to pour out of. Or fill the cargo hold with missiles, surface somewhere inconvenient for Equestria, open the door, and fire.

This'd mean the sub would have probably stayed beached for decades and then needed to be heavily repaired, if there's a huge gaping hole in its hull.

Plus, considering how starved for resources the Miliozi must have been in the early years, I could easily see them just cannibalizing / recycling the old sub for spare parts and raw materials in the early years.

BUT, at least maybe depending on what remained or how they recycled it, they could maybe have retained some form of expertise allowing them to rebuild a similar sub later on? I dunno.

What's your thoughts there?

Yeah. :)
I mean, you're actively and heavily disincentivising your agent from being loyal to you, exiling them from your country (which is the only place your currency is good), and then sending them to work with people who could quite plausibly give them a large pension, lots of luxuries to buy with it (many of them difficult or impossible for even the elite back home to get), a house on a sunny beach, and a harem (to hopefully breed more pegasi with). And if they prefer military discipline and asceticism but also want a better chance of being on the winning side, hey, the Alliance has that too. How do you keep someone loyal in that situation? Keeping a family member they love hostage, if they have one, would work... except that, if you somehow lose that family member and they find out, you're then pretty much certain to lose them. Implanted control device? You trust that you can put something in that Elusive's medical robots can't take out?

I was envisioning more of a diplomatic envoy serving as an unoficial diplomatic channel between the two powers, optionally doing some spying on the side as any good diplomat is going to do at one point or another; than a straight-up infiltrated double-agent. Mostly and probably because of the above expressed trust issues.

I believe the standard practice is such case is to send more than one people, put them in concurrence, and have them watch each others?

[O. Hinds]

Sorry for taking that long to reply, I was binge-watching a show.

No problem.

They do have a sizeable civilian population, yes. In my point of view, though, I tend to see the GPE as having, in a large measure (if not completely the same way), the same sort of "Military First" kind of political orientation that North Korea has. As far as I understand it, they still live under a siege mentality, constantly preparing for war. From this bred-culture of "we could be attacked at any moment", they justify the Enclave to still be under the command of a Military Junta. A junta which then work on to support its interests by allocating resources in priority to the military or dual-purpose programs / infrastructures.

Basically, it seems to me, from what little we've been able to observe, that politics in the GPE is mostly analyzed under the angle of "How might X decision allow us to gain an edge in any future conflict?", or more cynically "How can it help us stay in power?".

Ah, yes, that makes sense.

Hmm... Now I'm wondering the it could be one of the few holdings the <new Enclave may have decided to keep for their strategic importance after the relocation to Freidrischorfen? This'd give them a foothold / enclave (lower case e) inside Miliozi territory, after having lost Las Pegasus.

What's that stray "<"? Just an accidental keystroke?
Anyway, on the actual idea, how would they manage it?

And unless the Alliance decides to "storm the castle" and kick the remaining Enclave forces out of the tower... This could lead to interesting possibilities, I suppose?

Even if the Alliance didn't attack the place (Hm, though that could be a way for the tower to be "accidentally" disabled, getting more Miliozi territory out of the weather control of the possibly pro-NCR LittlePip...), would the base be self-sufficient? If not, the Alliance would just have to wait until the supplies ran out.

This'd mean the sub would have probably stayed beached for decades and then needed to be heavily repaired, if there's a huge gaping hole in its hull.

Plus, considering how starved for resources the Miliozi must have been in the early years, I could easily see them just cannibalizing / recycling the old sub for spare parts and raw materials in the early years.

BUT, at least maybe depending on what remained or how they recycled it, they could maybe have retained some form of expertise allowing them to rebuild a similar sub later on? I dunno.

What's your thoughts there?

Well, if the submarine comes into service after Profectum joins the Alliance, they could have built a new one to the old design. They could also have designed and built their own for this purpose, though, yes (and, if it only had to traverse the bay without being seen from the clouds, with no need for oceangoing capability, anti-antisubmarine systems, etc., it could be made more efficient at its purpose).

I was envisioning more of a diplomatic envoy serving as an unoficial diplomatic channel between the two powers, optionally doing some spying on the side as any good diplomat is going to do at one point or another; than a straight-up infiltrated double-agent. Mostly and probably because of the above expressed trust issues.

Oh, yeah, they'd be given jobs where their loyalty probably wouldn't be an issue. Though, of course, that potentially makes things even worse if it does. "They ruined your life just so you could be a glorified letter-carrier? Well, let's talk about what we could do for you instead..."

I believe the standard practice is such case is to send more than one people, put them in concurrence, and have them watch each others?

Well, two problems with that. First, it seems like Dashites don't usually operate in groups like that; it could draw attention. Second, though, that would just mean more people to be tempted.

[Harmony Ltd.]

What's that stray "<"? Just an accidental keystroke?
Anyway, on the actual idea, how would they manage it?

Even if the Alliance didn't attack the place (Hm, though that could be a way for the tower to be "accidentally" disabled, getting more Miliozi territory out of the weather control of the possibly pro-NCR LittlePip...), would the base be self-sufficient? If not, the Alliance would just have to wait until the supplies ran out.

Accidental keystroke. The < key is just next to the shift key on my keyboard.

Anyway, I suppose that if they show that they aren't abandoning the tower, they might maybe negotiate a flight corridor allowing them to go to and from the tower over Alliance lands.

After all, the alternative would be pretty much a declaration of war one way of the other:

- If they don't get the authorization to fly over the Alliance land, it's a blocus, which is a pretty strong casus-belli.
- If the Alliance tries to dislodge the GPE from the tower, it's a straight-up declaration of war.


And I don't think the Alliance would be that eager to enter into a war against the Enclave, even at a time where it's weakened by the fact it just imploded, and lost most of its strength to the seceding Bitters and Volunteers: the inherent difficulties to waging a non-total war against the Enclave haven't disappeared overnight.

Plus, that'd expose the Alliance to Bitter attacks.

Well, two problems with that. First, it seems like Dashites don't usually operate in groups like that; it could draw attention. Second, though, that would just mean more people to be tempted.

Alternatively, Thunderhead has unicorns, yes? Why not put them to use? They wouldn't even need to be dashite-branded. If people start asking question, just say on a conspirationnal tone that their assignement is "classified", and if people insist, tell them they're on recon mission on the surface, without any more details - technically, it wouldn't be a lie.

[O. Hinds]

Accidental keystroke. The < key is just next to the shift key on my keyboard.

Ah, thanks.

(I think that "blocus" might be something else in English. When I tried to look it up, I kept finding pages in French. The meaning is clear enough, though, I think.)

Hm. Pretty good points. And I suppose a short corridor could be granted over the mountains to the sea. That would even be something of an advantage to the base; anyone outside who wanted to attack them would either have to get permission to go through Miliozi territory or would be risking war with the Alliance.

Of course, that doesn't mean that the Alliance has to make them comfortable up there. The base can expect to be very closely watched, and I suspect that the Miliozi might just go ahead and plant a balefire bomb at the tower's base. Just in case.

Alternatively, Thunderhead has unicorns, yes? Why not put them to use? They wouldn't even need to be dashite-branded. If people start asking question, just say on a conspirationnal tone that their assignement is "classified", and if people insist, tell them they're on recon mission on the surface, without any more details - technically, it wouldn't be a lie.

Hm. Well, they'd not be able to fly up and down on their own, but then, most of the time, they probably wouldn't need to... Aye, this could work. Good idea!
Mind, then we bring the Neighvarro/Thunderhead split in, but presumably, this far in the past (however far that is), it's not nearly as bad.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Hate to post a facebook link, but this may be relevant to the Alliance:

Solar powered drone flying at 60,000ft for 3 months at a time can provide data connectivity to large areas

[O. Hinds]

Hate to post a facebook link, but this may be relevant to the Alliance:

I've only read the text you put over the link there, sorry. From the sound of that, maybe, but if you're thinking of the ARCANN system, this (which I happened to find a mention of earlier today, in fact) is probably more relevant.

[Harmony Ltd.]

I was thinking it may be used during a conflict as it is more mobile and easy to control than the ARCANN balloons (which, if I read it right, are dependent on the air currents to move around?).

It can also be used as an alternative, or even simply to diversify the means available.

Not saying they SHOULD use it, but at least it may be possible there could exist incentives for them to not simply rely on only the ARCANN ballons.

For example, during a high tempo operation behind enemy lines, you may reach a point where balloons wouldn't have been able to keep up with your advance, and you'd be out of communication range. Which, if you're Elusive, might be a cause for concern.

With the planes you could be able to create an ad-hoc network just for the occasion, which wouldn't have to hover in place, and if you have the mass-budget for it, you could even put a camera on them to do a bit of recon at the same time. Although that could defeat the purpose of having an expendable data-relay asset...



And yeah, I know the vetribi are intended to fill that niche of high-altitude recon, but given the cost in term of resource of the things, it's good to have an alternative at hand if push come to shove...

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