Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Meleagridis]

. . .Er uh, whoops?

Feeling all right there? You were somewhat fiercer than normal.

[CannonFodder]

. . .Er uh, whoops?

Feeling all right there? You were somewhat fiercer than normal.

Nothing was wrong. I'm just desensitized to the internet and internet arguments entirely. The other site I regularly post on a regular basis has massive flamewars of hundreds of people versus about 30 regulars on a regular basis. Even encyclopedia dramatica warns people to not go on the site. What I consider "fierce" would be what would happen if gamespot forums combined all threads on xbox360, ps3 and the wiiu into one thread and the topic was, "which system is the best?" level of heated.

I'll make sure to remember from now on that not all websites or userbases consider heated discussions as normal and will tone it down in the future.

[CannonFodder]

...I wonder where I was when this was going on o_o

Not this site, I mean a site entirely different from cloudsville.

[Stringtheory]

...I wonder where I was when this was going on o_o

Not this site, I mean a site entirely different from cloudsville.

and the obvious question is: what site was it?

[SilentCarto]

I don't know, that sorta assumes that there's some part of Psalm that isn't still inside either Lacunae or Blackjack. I'm pretty sure Psalm was completely consumed by her failure before all this -- that's why she was the dumping ground. She volunteered. (My general feeling is that MOST of a pony's mind/soul has to stay with their specific, particular body, unless it's for a very brief time.)

That's a good point. I forgot the scene of her in the Unity volunteering to go to Hoofington. It does sound like all of Psalm is there.

And maybe that explains why there's so many bottlecaps in people's lockers, desk drawers, etc... Even after they drink the soda, there's a subtle mental effect in the more suggestible sort: "Why would I want to throw this away? I'll just hang on to it instead."

It all makes sense now!

I was always under the impression that the zebras struck with their megaspells first, though I could be wrong.

That is the common knowledge, and it's what I'll continue to believe until I see an actual video or memory of somepony literally pushing The Button unprovoked.

When you step back and look at the whole picture, the idea that the OIA somehow started it doesn't hold up. The Zebra attack wasn't a frenzied retaliatory strike; the Zebras had bombs planted in four different locations (Yes, four. Silver Bell's "fireworks" never reached its target and was not armed, but that was the intent), commandos ready to pop out of their vault under Four Star to finish anything the bomb didn't, a single-shot surgical preemptive strike against their enemies' greatest military asset (Cloudsdale), and a full-blown trap for the Princesses. And all coordinated to the point that three different attacks occurred within a few minutes, plus a fourth calculated to give the Princesses time to get word of the first shots and lock the door to their own execution chamber. Unless the OIA was in control of the Zebras' entire strategic arsenal, they had to have been piggybacking on an existing plan rather than pulling the strings themselves.

Could the Zebras have been prepared and waiting for the "go" signal? Yeah, maybe... but the longer a plan like that sat, the greater the chance that one of the bombs would be discovered, or Equestria would change its tactics, or one of the superweapons would come to fruition. The Manehattan bomb only dodged Pinkie's attack on Four Star by minutes as it was. Given another hour or so, the Rangers very well may have caught up to the coach carrying it. So either someone in the heart of Manehattan was able to communicate to Zebra High Command that the bomb was in danger and they needed the "go" right away, or the bomb was already on a prearranged countdown that gave it just enough time to get in position. Which is what one might expect, considering they were trying to slip it past PTM Pinkie Pie's powers of precognitive perception.

"There was some invasion or big attack planned, something made with the help of a collaborator...". I don't remember any big offensive mentioned happening shortly before the bombs fell. Perhaps because the collaborator had been removed from office and imprisoned before the plan could be enacted?

Great catch! Quite possible, and potential grounds for execution. I had the impression that Goldie was too loyal to sabotage Luna even in the face of certain doom and horror, but maybe being head of the OIA allowed him to put together clues that added up to something even he couldn't stomach.

Which automatically makes me nervous, given what he's shown he could stomach.

What is this "new tron"? I have never heard if such a thing. I know they have balefire bombs full of necromantic dragon fire, but I don't think setting that off way up in the sky would cause a rain of your mysterious fictional "death particles".

*giggles uncontrollably*

So I think it might do something more impressive later. You think it'll remain a gimpy little skeleton key to be trotted around hoofington from one project to another.
I guess I just want more from it, is all, and think Somber might have something more impressive in store for later.

I agree with your point, but I want to note that when EC activates, it's not just a program on your Pipbuck that can open doors. As I understand it, it literally imbues the target with Princess-level access. As in doors unlock for you because you're you, the SPP shield lets you in any time you want, and the EBS system is your bitch. I don't know if that's accomplished by magically stamping the target with some kind of recognition tag or performing a worldwide magical security rewrite to grant you top-level access to every government facility everywhere. I think the latter is more likely, but it would be kind of funny to see BJ walk into a building and the computer says, "Welcome, Princess Luna."

[Derpmind]

Isn't it more likely that parts of the OIA were informed enough to get a few day's notice on the Zebra's attack, and the real conspiracy is that these ponies let it happen? Maybe that's the plan that Goldenblood ended up committing to: Ensure mutually assured destruction, then rebuild, conquer and control the entire planet with Project Horizons. Things, as usual during an apocalypse, didn't quite work out that way.

Either that or time travel. If time travel was possible in this setting, you could explain absolutely everything with time travel! Which, BTW, would kinda ruin the setting, but still! Time travel!

[SilentCarto]

...Flask, huh? How'd you get all that information? Was it in all in her rant in the kitchen?

I collected fragments of ancient wisdom scattered across a thousand worlds, from inscriptions on the corpses of dead stars to the secrets of the universe revealed in the cry of a newborn babe.

...nah, this is stuff I pieced together over the latter half of FOE, before I even started on PH. (You might have noticed I do that a lot...)

To start with, Flask is my fanon name for her, since she's one of the few characters we can track from her previous life into alicornhood. Her cutie mark is a flask. I am tremendously creative. She first appears in the video of the Goddess's birth, in chapter 29:
The security monitors flickered to life under the dust. One of them displayed colorful ponies in lab coats milling about a much bigger version of this room, full of monitors and maneframes and banks of blinking lights. “Ready when you are,” a chartreuse pony with a cutie mark of a flask filled with bubbling green liquid said, glancing up at us through the monitor.

She reappears in the MAS basement in chapter 37:
Only the alicorn’s cutie mark didn’t just fade away. A cutie mark of a flask with bubbling green liquid replaced it. The alicorn’s new cutie mark struck a chord of déjà vu. I’d seen it before.

Given that alicorns are blank-flanked under normal circumstances, the cutie mark's reappearance indicates that she is, to some degree, herself again. If very, very, very crazy.

The part about the Pink Cloud comes from chapter 36:
“…This Goddess-forsaken place makes us remember things. I hate remembering things,” the third voice continued, and all at once I realized why their voices sounded strange. I wasn’t hearing them in my head. Just with my ears. “Last night, I remembered I used to be a buck.”
Luna spank my withers! The Pink Cloud was messing with their telepathy! They were cut off from Goddess’ influence here. No wonder Trixie needed us as her agents in Canterlot.
Then the other hoof fell. The Canterlot Ruins were supposed to be full of alicorns. And those alicorns didn’t know we were supposed to be friendlies. We were all sorts of fucked.

As to why the Goddess needs Pip to get the black book, that's in 29 again:
{{BECAUSE THE SECRET THAT RED EYE SEEKS, THE SECRET HIDDEN EVEN FROM THE GREAT AND POWERFUL GODDESS, IS LOCKED AWAY INSIDE A WAREHOUSE ON MINISTRY WALK IN CANTERLOT!...}}
[...]
{{…WITH CONTROLS WHICH CAN ONLY BE OPERATED BY A PEGASUS...}}
Clever. So, the Goddess didn’t actually need me. She needed Calamity. I wondered how Red Eye was planning to get past that.
{{…AND BEYOND A SHIELD WHICH ONLY A MINISTRY MARE CAN STEP THROUGH!}}
And that would be the Bypass that Red Eye was trying to get through. But why did…?
Oh! Of course. Close family or direct descendants thereof. The Goddess needed Velvet Remedy as well. Once again, I was the one just clearing the way.
[...]
“Let me guess. You want Rarity’s little black book.” The Goddess did need me after all. She needed somepony who could pick a lock.

You see, Pip knew where the Book was thanks to the damaged memory orb (Ch. 29) which she got from a Very Hard locked safe in the MoM FunFarm (Ch. 26) which the computer logs indicated had not been opened since before the Last Day. The Goddess had no idea that the Black Book was actually locked up in Rarity's office -- she was banging her head against the MAw basement shield on the assumption that something that valuable had been stored behind the heaviest security in Canterlot.

By the way, going back through FOE to collect all this was a bit of a shock. I've gotten used to Somber's writing style, and she's improved tremendously since Chapter 1a. After having become used to that, running headlong into Kkat's clipped, tell-y style was actually kind of unpleasant. Yes, it's time to make this official: PH is my favorite FOE story.

Isn't it more likely that parts of the OIA were informed enough to get a few day's notice on the Zebra's attack, and the real conspiracy is that these ponies let it happen?

Yes.

[Derpmind]

Yes, it's time to make this official: PH is my favorite FOE story.

Welcome to the club!
Geez, it's crazy how complicated that is when you write it all out like that.

Isn't it more likely that parts of the OIA were informed enough to get a few day's notice on the Zebra's attack, and the real conspiracy is that these ponies let it happen?

Yes.

[Meleagridis]

(Also this Timone gif I found when looking for jawdrops.)

This is a super power, yes? You solve crimes by night, don't you?

Could you tell me what chapter had Flask's plan and rant?

[SilentCarto]

Geez, it's crazy how complicated that is when you write it all out like that.

Well, it IS a five-book epic. Lots of time for stuff to get complicated. If you think about, though, it's not actually that hard to map out -- each adventure yielded one or more quest items (or facts, or favors, or whatever) that figured into later adventures. You just have to trace back where each item came from. (Memory orbs are easy, because they're usually identified by where they were found.)

This is a super power, yes? You solve crimes by night, don't you?

Well, I've always been able to quote back entire movie scenes after one viewing, so there's that?

I think it's actually kinda similar to what Twilight does with spells -- she knows she's seen a spell that does X, but doesn't remember which book or how it worked, so she goes and looks it up. I do the same thing. For instance, if I want to locate where they find out Pink Cloud blocks Unity, I just think, where was the first place we encountered Pink Cloud? Zebratown. So I search for "Zebratown" until I find the right chapter, then run a search for a relevant uncommon word or phrase. For example, alicorns are connected to the Unity by telepathy, so I search for "telepath" (so that it will pick up "telepathy", "telepathic", and any related words) and click through until I find the relevant passage.

Sometimes it can be tough to find if I don't know where to look already, like finding exactly where Psalm volunteered to become Lacunae. All I could remember was "I'll go", and that's a very common phrase. But I knew that the plan to send in just one alicorn came about because they had just lost several alicorns to Enervation, with BJ's viewpoint sliding between them as they approached the Core. "Slid" finally got me to the right passage.

Could you tell me what chapter had Flask's plan and rant?

Well, I'll tell you all of Canterlot was Chapter 37. Flask's plan regarding the spell-in-a-box was related by Calamity, as he'd been listening to her rant "All. Fucking. Night." Calamity went over the incidentals of Mouse's backstory right before they walked into the Artistic Commons at Vault City. The part where we actually hear Flask arguing with herself was a bit earlier than that -- I'd search for "flask" if you want to read it.

[Vergil]

Well, I've always been able to quote back entire movie scenes after one viewing, so there's that?

You're among good company, sir.

[Ketchup]

I think it's actually kinda similar to what Twilight does with spells -- she knows she's seen a spell that does X, but doesn't remember which book or how it worked, so she goes and looks it up. I do the same thing. For instance, if I want to locate where they find out Pink Cloud blocks Unity, I just think, where was the first place we encountered Pink Cloud? Zebratown. So I search for "Zebratown" until I find the right chapter, then run a search for a relevant uncommon word or phrase. For example, alicorns are connected to the Unity by telepathy, so I search for "telepath" (so that it will pick up "telepathy", "telepathic", and any related words) and click through until I find the relevant passage.

My memory works in similar ways. It happens often that my father would bring up something at dinner, like Lagrange points(this actually happened), and I'd say I've read about them but don't actually remember much about them. Applies to pretty much everything, but not being able to place memorable events in time that didn't occur in the last few months is frustrating, and I forget pretty much everything.

Can someone link me to a PDF download of Fo:E? The link on Equestria Daily leads nowhere.

[OneMoreDaySK]

@ketchup
<a href=http://jlryan.deviantart.com/art/Fallout-Equestria-eReader-Official-298931230>Linky.</a>

[SilentCarto]

It happens often that my father would bring up something at dinner, like Lagrange points(this actually happened),

You have an awesome dad.

I also wanted to say, it probably doesn't hurt that between reading FOE, mapping it, and sketching out some timeline, I've probably seen every major plot point three times.

[Ketchup]

It happens often that my father would bring up something at dinner, like Lagrange points(this actually happened),

You have an awesome dad.

I also wanted to say, it probably doesn't hurt that between reading FOE, mapping it, and sketching out some timeline, I've probably seen every major plot point three times.

We once had a lengthy discussion about Harrier jets and the Falklands War, and my sisters and mother didn't follow. He also seems to have a fascination with the Phalanx CIWS...

I was hoping that having the PDF of the story would help me contribute more to discussions, and help me get immersed in it, like a paper book where you don't need no open up another chapter, you just flip the page.

[Ketchup]

I know he didn't show up the first time Blackjack was there, so there's no rooting to it in that sense.

All I've got, if that helps any.

[Moodyman90]

All I got is that he was "sleeping" until Blackjack started her quest and showed himself to her.

Since then he just seems to show up for anybody who gets their hooves on to EC-1011 for any length of time. But the only examples for that is Pychoshy and Scotch.

Though for the latter it could be he wasn't able to sense/see Blackjack without without projecting himself in that manner and Scotch seeing him was a side effect.

I'm grasping straws here but I think if he intended on showing up for Scotch he would have said something to her since, if memory serves, it takes some energy to make and maintain that form. Only able to show up when he's able but can go as he pleases. So he showed up to try to keep an eye on Blackjack as best he could.

[OneMoreDaySK]

Re: Dealer appearances
Dunno, but it seems to me like he had a lot more time than prior, as he was able to spend hours chatting with Blackjack on is character. Maybe trying to see if Scotch is part of a character's bloodline?

[Boing]

Well, I've always been able to quote back entire movie scenes after one viewing, so there's that?

Nice! I've always been pretty detail oriented myself, though it usually takes seeing things more than once for them to really stick in my memory.

Isn't it more likely that parts
of the OIA were informed enough to get a few day's notice on the Zebra's
attack, and the real conspiracy is that these ponies let it
happen?

Yes.

That's pretty much my take of it, going back to it first being hinted at during BJ's first visit to the museum.

Ketchup:
1)I agree, awesome dad.
2)The Falklands; the conflict that made the major powers rush out their missile defense systems. Plus get pissed at the French for selling the Argentines Exocets. heh

Do any of you have ANY theories about what causes The Dealer to show up?
Particularly what caused him to show up for Scotch when he had no intention of speaking to her?

I know it's not always easy for him to appear, no idea why though. As for why he would show for Scotch just so he could glare at her...got me on that one. Was wondering the same thing myself when I read that chapter.

[FeatherDust]

Do any of you have ANY theories about what causes The Dealer to show up?
Particularly what caused him to show up for Scotch when he had no intention of speaking to her?

I don't have much evidence for this, but I get a general sense that when Dealer is manifesting, he is more "present", or somehow has a clearer view of what's going on. He always has some sense of the world around him (or rather around the program), but if something happens that's of particular interest or importance, he's there to witness it, even if it's just hovering in the background.

He's manifested many times when he didn't actually have anything to say, and it appears to take him some effort to manifest. If appearing is not to improve communication, I can't imagine why he'd do it -- unless it's because he sometimes needs to be "present" for his own benefit.

Whether the above is correct or not, well... It could be really simple. Maybe he just sensed that somebody other than Blackjack was messing with the pipbuck and he wanted to see who it was.

[SilentCarto]

Do any of you have ANY theories about what causes The Dealer to show up?

Well, sort of. I think he does whatever he wants. The real question should be, why doesn't he show up sometimes? He indicated he was "tired" after she "woke him up" at Goldie's house. He was disoriented and didn't know what was happening, but a minute later he referred to her night with Styg. Then, later on at Riverside after Hightower, he said that he's privy to everything she sees and hears. That suggests that he's not literally monitoring everything at all times, but can quickly access the backlog when he wakes up.

As to why he would show himself to Scotch: he behaved in the same way when Psychoshy was trying to activate Chimera with it. So maybe he was giving Scotch the same treatment because he sensed that someone new had taken EC-1101. If he hadn't yet caught up with current events, he might see fit to unnerve her enough to be sure she wouldn't be tempted to keep EC-1101 for herself.

There's another, more technological possibility I see, though. Since he manifests through the Pipbuck's EFS, he presumably can't see anything the user can't see. If the damage to BJ's leg broke her Pipbuck's link to her eyes' integral EFS, he might have been blind until the Pipbuck was disconnected from BJ and reverted to non-cyberpony mode. Maybe he just wanted to encourage Scotch to look around so he could see what was going on.
Edit: This would also explain why he was surprised that BJ knew the name "Smiling Jack". Scotch put down the leg and backed away from it before telling BJ she had seen him before, so if he has no senses besides the user's, he couldn't hear that conversation or see the Wastelands RPG books come out.

Speaking of the time Dealer had trouble manifesting, it may be interesting to revisit the Project Horizons firing display from Goldie's basement knowing what we know now.
>EC-1101 status: Standby.
We already knew that, of course.
>Ministry Credentials Established.
Identified as Twilight Sparkle.
>Equestria Defense Status: Unknown Critical.
Wrecked beyond all recognition.
>Palace Status: Complete.
Wait, what?
>Redoubt Status: Complete.
That's at Black Pony Mountain.
>Tom: Complete. Charge 100%.
Sounds like this is the PH megaspell container, doesn't it? This is presumably the giant diamond being maintained by the sonic-blast-shooting undead unicorns under the Core.
>Warning: Spark Flux Capacitors charge at 0%. Recharge Pending Activation.
I don't know what those are, but they'll start to charge if PH is activated. So presumably they have to charge fully in order to fire PH, which will give us a nice "countdown to doomsday" sequence at the end of the story.
>Project Horizons Status: Standby.
>Activate Project Horizons: Y/N?

So... what is this "Palace"? I'd assume that's not referring to Canterlot Castle, since it was finished centuries ago and this Palace is mentioned right alongside the Redoubt. One wonders, then, especially given Goldie's question about the energy output of entirely vaporizing the EoS, if the Palace and the Redoubt were in reality designed to be the two places they could guarantee would be safe from Project Horizons.

Or, if my teleporter theory is correct, the Redoubt is just a closet that goes to the Palace moonbase. But that's pure speculation. Though it WOULD be easier to protect a teleporter pad against Second Impact than a huge underground luxury stable...

[SilentCarto]

I don't have much evidence for this, but I get a general sense that when Dealer is manifesting, he is more "present", or somehow has a clearer view of what's going on. He always has some sense of the world around him (or rather around the program), but if something happens that's of particular interest or importance, he's there to witness it, even if it's just hovering in the background.

He's manifested many times when he didn't actually have anything to say, and it appears to take him some effort to manifest. If appearing is not to improve communication, I can't imagine why he'd do it -- unless it's because he sometimes needs to be "present" for his own benefit.

Whether the above is correct or not, well... It could be really simple. Maybe he just sensed that somebody other than Blackjack was messing with the pipbuck and he wanted to see who it was.

This is another good theory. Good point about him appearing "in the background" in a number of situations when he didn't have anything to say.

[Sindri]

Apologies for my long absence.
Why is it that as soon as you come to the time when you expect to finally be free to do as you please, time suddenly slips away under a pile of familial stuff and scheduling problems and unexpected new work and madness, to the point where you fall behind on all correspondences and can't find four hours together to read anything more complex than a news article or a couple chapters of simplistic-
Right, stopping ranting now. Instead, posting the abbreviated and much belated reaction block for chapter 53. Under spoiler tags so it can be ignored as it deserves, but I need to get back into this habit. I suppose I'm perversely lucky that progress has been so slow of late, and I only missed one...

Spoiler:

By the way, going back through FOE to collect all this was a bit of a shock. I've gotten used to Somber's writing style, and she's improved tremendously since Chapter 1a. After having become used to that, running headlong into Kkat's clipped, tell-y style was actually kind of unpleasant. Yes, it's time to make this official: PH is my favorite FOE story.

So much yes. Kkat is a damn good writer. During my time away I've had chances to read some things, smaller and less serious things that I can deal with in an hour or two free at a time, and I'd almost gotten accustomed to normal decent-to-good authors again. Then I come back to Somber and it just flows, so smooth and expressive that... okay, I'll stop fangirling now, but you get the point.

Do any of you have ANY theories about what causes The Dealer to show up?
Particularly what caused him to show up for Scotch when he had no intention of speaking to her?

It does seem to maybe correlate with position; some places he seems to be there effortlessly, and even show up when he doesn't have anything to say, while others seem to take a great deal of effort and sometimes he doesn't show even in what seems like a perfect opportunity.

My current theory is that he doesn't actually reside on-site; places with a strong signal from whatever network he's on, or open line of sight to whichever transmitters he can use, are easy. Places like the medical center with extremely good connections to EC-1101 related systems are so little effort that he'd even be visible to Scotch, while remote locations or those which are relatively hidden (like Goldenblood and Fluttershy's house) take a lot of effort because he needs to push through the static or whatever, and those completely disconnected from the grid (like Stable 99, or Littlepip's Wasteland far from the Hoof) make it impossible for him to act.

Of course there isn't much evidence for this theory, and it would require a reexamining of his 'connection' to EC-1101... Maybe the base code of the megaprogram is set to automatically and constantly seek out a connection to whatever maneframe Echo was uploaded into, so he can perceive and communicate with the Bearer whenever they're near a system that EC-1101 could potentially access? It would require a stable connection between him and very nearly every major system in the Hoof. And it seems unnecessarily complicated to set him up as a remote system which can access and be accessed from a single mobile terminal, unless it was impossible to just shove him in with the EC-1101. It's not a particularly solid theory, but it's the best I've got at the moment. When we learn more about mind uploading it'll either be completely sunk or slightly more valid.

[Guest]

Aaah! Welcome back, Sindri, we missed ya!

[Sindri]

I missed you guys too. I did not have nearly enough poni in the last couple months, and even the poni there was seemed less... poni alone.
And as far as I can tell nobody writes like Somber.

[WavemasterRyx]

Welcome back, Sindri!

Also, not entirely relevant to the flux discussion, but have some Boo.
http://boo-project-horizons.tumblr.com/post/42834722416

[Sindri]

http://boo-project-horizons.tumblr.com/post/42834722416

Boo is best Boo.

[SilentCarto]

It occurs to me that Steelhooves is the only surviving Marauder that hasn't teamed up with BJ. Though Jetstream is technically MIA right now, not confirmed dead.

Also, Hinds, Stonewing got left out of the roll call in the most recent chapter.

[Guest]

@Ryx
:( That's good art of a sad Boo, and it touches on a very controversial topic - sexuality of people with some level of mental handicap. It's less present in the original PH scene, since we don't have access to whatever thoughts Boo might be having, and it's cool to see it brought up. Cool, but very sad.

[Caoimhe]

I was likening it to when I first read the conversation as humourous, showing more of Glory's ignorance of stable sexuality. Then it started feeling creepy, akin to bestiality. We don't know what's going on in Boo's noggin so it's all in all very strange (though I hope nothing happens).

Somber's way too good at making me think about really bizarre things I'd never thought would cross my mind. Encrebe!

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