Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Derpmind]

So EFNW's today. Well, I'm one of those who can't (couldn't now) go up to Seattle. And well, if I could have gone... When they introduce Somber to the stage/table/soapbox and everyone does the polite clapping thing, I'd shove my fist into the sky and shot out "HOOFINGTON RISES!"

It'd be terribly awkward and embarrassing. I'd do it three, maybe four times anyways.  

Soooo that's my attempt at morale support. I hope everyone's having fun over there! Good luck with your panel Somber. And everyone else, don't forget that conventions are a wonderful opportunity to make a fool of yourself in a safe, enclosed environment.

[JadedPony]

I got bored and read the latest two chapters. I'm still reserving judgement. The singing part made me think that maybe, just maybe the story isn't going to end up totally missing the entire point of friendship and harmony.

Hopefully Blackjack will figure it out. Lets see if blackjack is actually smarter than a 5th grader. If she manages to put together the lesson that every single event in her ENTIRE life has been trying to teach her, I'll be impressed and even put my key-chain banner back on.



I didn't really see the necessity for the warning at the start, but it was very thoughtful of them to put it there. The filly in question is hardly what I would call an innocent child any more anyway.

If she's mature enough to be disarming mines and shooting guns I'm pretty sure she's mature enough to make choices about her body.

I did really enjoy the zebras. The little zebra who talks to the stars was adorable. I always enjoyed her. Also the fight was awesome, I gotta admit, that was some kick ass writing.

Also.. :

The part with the Society was inspirational. I really liked it. It's about time someone there stood up to be counted. The buns will be well cooked once this is over.

Teamwork, what a concept huh?

[atikin]

Also.. :

Spoiler:

[JadedPony]

Re: Atikin:

[Derpmind]

However, I was wondering if anyone would be awesome enough to record Somber's panel. I would really enjoy watching it in some way.

So turns out there's a livestream, which I only found out about a few minutes ago. (And it's offstream right now.) It's possible that they have the Fallout: Equestria panel recorded if they happened to be streaming it. They have a youtube channel but it looks like all their videos from last year are of this Ponystock music thing.

Sigh. I've looked at the EFNW website a few times but somehow I completely missed that they were going to have a livestream, in addition to somehow thinking that Saturday was the 29th. Oops. :(

[ILM126]

Also, just one thing that came up in my mind a few days ago. Something about what BJ saw in an earlier chapter... And what just appeared at the end of the latest chapter...

Umm, so what did she see when she died for the second time ;D:

I don't think so. It was Luna. The screams came every time the lightning struck to the center of the Tokomare, and we found out later that the lightning was Cognitum's helpers keeping Luna's soul contained.

Then, green lightning flashed from that immense wall and tore through the sea of motes.  Even I screamed as an agony I’d never known flashed across me.  It wasn’t a physical pain so much as a sense of profound violation.  It felt like being nailed back in the Seahorse again.  The green lightning flashed again and again into the center of the sea, and the scream peaked once more.
...
The lightning flashed, and that anguished scream rolled out across the sea of souls like a wave.
...
Whatever the lightning was targeting lay right in the middle of this sea.  Slowly, the motes thinned out more and more until…
No…
It couldn’t be!
A dozen bolts of lightning struck the center, and for the first time I realized that the scream Lacunae had been hearing hadn’t been a what.  It was a who.

Then, with a metallic clunk, the lift had reached its destination: a large round platform in the very middle of the swarm of souls.  
...
Six unicorns, one standing at each point, were trying to keep a ball of brilliant white contained in the middle.  Green lighting from their horns raked across it, forcing it back whenever it drifted.  The black robes they wore were a little much.

This is the same scene from opposite perspectives.

hmm, alright then

[JadedPony]

Also.. :

Spoiler:

Sorry, accidental downvote.

It's OK, I'll see your accidental downvote and raise you a upvote! Take that!

[Derpmind]

Countdown on the Fallout website. Get hype for Fallout 4!

[Valikdu]

It's not made by Obsidian, so... nah, no hype for me.

[MSCA]

It's not made by Obsidian, so... nah, no hype for me.

You don't need to be so negative.  There can't be a New Vegas 2 or whatever else Obsidian is planning until there's a Fallout 4.

[Scienza]

It's not made by Obsidian, so... nah, no hype for me.

You don't need to be so negative.  There can't be a New Vegas 2 or whatever else Obsidian is planning until there's a Fallout 4.

I remember what Bethesda did to the Brotherhood of Steel.

[MSCA]

It's not made by Obsidian, so... nah, no hype for me.

You don't need to be so negative.  There can't be a New Vegas 2 or whatever else Obsidian is planning until there's a Fallout 4.

I remember what Bethesda did to the Brotherhood of Steel.

You mean the same thing Kkat and Somber did to them?

[Scienza]

It's not made by Obsidian, so... nah, no hype for me.

You don't need to be so negative.  There can't be a New Vegas 2 or whatever else Obsidian is planning until there's a Fallout 4.

I remember what Bethesda did to the Brotherhood of Steel.

You mean the same thing Kkat and Somber did to them?

But Kkat and Somber still gave them their original moral ambiguity and put some effort into discussing the transition and the ensuing sectarian conflict. Bethesda was just like "You know the Brotherhood of Steel? Arguably the most morally gray of the bandit factions? They're now wasteland crusaders trying to save all the puppies and virgins! And to reinforce this transformation, they're going to fight flying pseudo-Nazis who shot your dad and want to irradiate the wasteland for shits and giggles!" It didn't help that the Brotherhood Outcasts were woefully underdeveloped and were tied into the karma system ("They disagree with Elder Jesus, therefore, they're eeeeeeeeevil").

I'm not really all that enamored with how Kkat handled them either, but that's another discussion.

I know I'm being hyperbolic, since Bethesda can... mostly write complex narratives, and have done so repeatedly in the Elder Scrolls series. It's just that I'm still very unhappy with what they did in the main quest of Fallout 3.

[MSCA]

But Kkat and Somber still gave them their original moral ambiguity and put some effort into discussing the transition and the ensuing sectarian conflict. Bethesda was just like "You know the Brotherhood of Steel? Arguably the most morally gray of the bandit factions? They're now wasteland crusaders trying to save all the puppies and virgins! And to reinforce this transformation, they're going to fight flying pseudo-Nazis who shot your dad and want to irradiate the wasteland for shits and giggles!" It didn't help that the Brotherhood Outcasts were woefully underdeveloped and were tied into the karma system ("They disagree with Elder Jesus, therefore, they're eeeeeeeeevil"). This isn't even going into how the majority of the other decisions you can make in the vanilla game are pretty grossly black and white as well (Defuse the bomb, or nuke the town for shits and giggles?)

I know I'm being hyperbolic, since Bethesda can... mostly write complex narratives, and have done so repeatedly in the Elder Scrolls series. It's just that I'm still very unhappy with what they did in the main quest of Fallout 3.

I get your point that the Brotherhood in Fallout 3 is massively different than in the previous games.  What do you mean about tying the Outcasts into the karma system?  They all have good or neutral karma according to the wiki.  But...FO:E goes way beyond that.  Most of the named Steel Rangers who don't join Applejack's Rangers are downright evil, way beyond anything the Outcasts are like.

[Scienza]

The game engine treats the Outcasts as "Evil" characters, which means that you can slaughter them with wild abandon without consequence (and they do have the coolest armor in the game), and IIRC, you even get positive karma from doing so.

As for FO:E, yeah, that wasn't great either. That's one of the places where I wish Kkat had diverged from the source material more, but hey, the past is in the past. PH's approach was better in that it didn't abandon the ideological basis from vanilla FO:E but it made the conflict considerably more political (so that things ended up being more Manehattan v. Hoofington v. Phillydelphia v. Trottingham v. Horse-Pun City).

I dunno, maybe I'm just being contrarian. For me, at least, what made the Brotherhood of Steel interesting was that they defied any easy moral classification. They were self-serving and dangerously short-sighted, but they were also intelligent, disciplined, and pragmatic enough to see where the wind is blowing. They weren't trying to fight the good fight, they were looking out for themselves and that made their interactions with the other wasteland factions all the more interesting and unpredictable. Turning them into a standard hero faction just robs them of that ambiguity.

I will admit, The Pitt and Point Lookout were really damn good, so I guess there is hope.

[MSCA]

The game engine treats the Outcasts as "Evil" characters, which means that you can slaughter them with wild abandon without consequence (and they do have the coolest armor in the game), and IIRC, you even get positive karma from doing so.

As for FO:E, yeah, that wasn't great either. That's one of the places where I wish Kkat had diverged from the source material more, but hey, the past is in the past. PH's approach was better in that it didn't abandon the ideological basis from vanilla FO:E but it made the conflict considerably more political (so that things ended up being more Manehattan v. Hoofington v. Phillydelphia v. Trottingham v. Horse-Pun City).

I dunno, maybe I'm just being contrarian. For me, at least, what made the Brotherhood of Steel interesting was that they defied any easy moral classification. They were self-serving and dangerously short-sighted, but they were also intelligent, disciplined, and pragmatic enough to see where the wind is blowing. They weren't trying to fight the good fight, they were looking out for themselves and that made their interactions with the other wasteland factions all the more interesting and unpredictable. Turning them into a standard hero faction just robs them of that ambiguity.

I will admit, The Pitt and Point Lookout were really damn good, so I guess there is hope.

Per the Fallout Wiki and my own recollection, you do lose karma for killing/stealing from Outcast members at Fort Independence and in Operation Anchorage, just like any other characters with good or neutral karma.  Their patrols are considered evil, yes, but you only get positive karma from killing very evil characters.

I'm not trying to argue that Fallout 3's BoS is better or worse than the previous Fallout games.  They're very different, and it's a matter of opinion which is better.  Personally, I don't think the original BoS is all that morally grey and deep - they're just out for themselves, as you said.  I could say "They were self-serving and dangerously short-sighted, but they were also intelligent, disciplined, and pragmatic enough to see where the wind is blowing" about Caesar's Legion as well, but those facts don't really make them morally ambiguous.

[Scienza]

The game engine treats the Outcasts as "Evil" characters, which means that you can slaughter them with wild abandon without consequence (and they do have the coolest armor in the game), and IIRC, you even get positive karma from doing so.

As for FO:E, yeah, that wasn't great either. That's one of the places where I wish Kkat had diverged from the source material more, but hey, the past is in the past. PH's approach was better in that it didn't abandon the ideological basis from vanilla FO:E but it made the conflict considerably more political (so that things ended up being more Manehattan v. Hoofington v. Phillydelphia v. Trottingham v. Horse-Pun City).

I dunno, maybe I'm just being contrarian. For me, at least, what made the Brotherhood of Steel interesting was that they defied any easy moral classification. They were self-serving and dangerously short-sighted, but they were also intelligent, disciplined, and pragmatic enough to see where the wind is blowing. They weren't trying to fight the good fight, they were looking out for themselves and that made their interactions with the other wasteland factions all the more interesting and unpredictable. Turning them into a standard hero faction just robs them of that ambiguity.

I will admit, The Pitt and Point Lookout were really damn good, so I guess there is hope.

Per the Fallout Wiki and my own recollection, you do lose karma for killing/stealing from Outcast members at Fort Independence and in Operation Anchorage, just like any other characters with good or neutral karma.  Their patrols are considered evil, yes, but you only get positive karma from killing very evil characters.

I'm not trying to argue that Fallout 3's BoS is better or worse than the previous Fallout games.  They're very different, and it's a matter of opinion which is better.  Personally, I don't think the original BoS is all that morally grey and deep - they're just out for themselves, as you said.  I could say "They were self-serving and dangerously short-sighted, but they were also intelligent, disciplined, and pragmatic enough to see where the wind is blowing" about Caesar's Legion as well, but those facts don't really make them morally ambiguous.

Ah, but supporting Caesar's Legion is morally ambiguous. They're massive shitlords, but they keep Nevada ordered and secure. They're also a lot less corrupt than the NCR or basically anyone else. You could do it for the evulz, I suppose, but their relative effectiveness is the main reason why they're a viable (if repugnant) option.

I guess to each to their own. Personally, I don't like the way that Bethesda handled Fallout ("I know, we'll give the players difficult choices like 'Do I, or do I not randomly nuke a town full of innocent civilians?'"), but who knows?

[O. Hinds]

Argh... I might not be able to get caught up on everything today, either...

But I don't want the story changed, I agreed that this event was accurate to the characters involved. Do you mean what could BJ have done differently to improve my opinion of her?

No, not what you would have liked Blackjack to have done instead. What you you, if you were there instead of Blackjack and everyone was ignoring the fact that it was you instead of Blackjack, have done?
(Sorry if this is a bit rough; I have a lot to do.)

@Icy Shake:
Ah, thank you very much as always. The time investment required for this isn't exactly welcome at the moment, but, well, it has to be done.

Argh. And it looks like both PH and FoE are inconsistent on "Ministry of Arcane Science" vs. "Ministry of Arcane Sciences".

I don't think that I missed anything in the Other Chapter Editing, but I'm less confident than usual; if I did, I apologize.

If you're doing (computer, telecom, etc.) technology prayers without magic smoke, you're doing it wrong.

:)

Every now and again I ask myself things like how I ended up kind of invested in a ship between a zebra and an article of clothing.

:D

Of course, that's selective, since narrator-Blackjack's vocabulary is shockingly comprehensive, almost like that of an English teacher with access to a thesaurus. :D

:)

Sorry for not saying more, but, again, I've a lot to get through.

[Guest]

Mind if we put a pin in this for now? The crux of the issue appears to be you and I disagreeing on my opinion of BJ's character.

To the best of my knowledge my opinion might not even be relevent. As (again to the best of my knowledge) the issue of getting the kids out hasn't even been solved.

[O. Hinds]

Mind if we put a pin in this for now? The crux of the issue appears to be you and I disagreeing on my opinion of BJ's character.

You're still misunderstanding, I think (Though, as I don't see how Blackjack's character comes into the conversation at this point, I might be the one misunderstanding.). Ignore what Blackjack did. Ignore Blackjack being there. Pretend that Blackjack isn't there and that the others are ignoring Blackjack not being there. What, if you were there instead of Blackjack but somehow (and ignore the question of the reason) had her pull with Scotch and Bastard, would you have done, and how would Scotch have reacted? Or, if you like, how would Scotch have reacted if, for some unspecified reason, Blackjack had reacted as you would and everyone present ignored any discrepancy with her past behavior this involved?

To the best of my knowledge my opinion might not even be relevent. As (again to the best of my knowledge) the issue of getting the kids out hasn't even been solved.

...Eh? Are we talking about what I thought we were talking about?

[atikin]

Hinds, BJ's character comes into the conversation by my interruption into it... 
And yeah, Last, my question was what would you like BJ to do in this situation instead of what really happened?

[decumos]

I was more hyped for Wasteland 2 than I am for Fallout 4. Damn, Obsidian, InXile, even Overmare Studios, anyone, please, steal Fallout from Bethesda...

[O. Hinds]

Hinds, BJ's character comes into the conversation by my interruption into it...

...Still not seeing it, sorry.

I don't have a problem with that.
At my plant we have the EOF, which is either the emergency offsite facility or the emergency operations facility.
We have the AEPS, being either the alternate emergency power source or the alternate emergency power system.
Yes, even on official drawings and documents.

As soon as you start referring to something primarily by its acronym the original name can get obscured.

I wouldn't be surprised if some people in the public thought MoAS stood for the Ministry of Arcane Sorceries or the Ministry of Academic Sciences.

Of course it depends on context of the references; my point is that there might be wiggle room.

Oh, interesting. Thanks!

[Guest]

@Hinds The original point I made was that the scene reflected on BJ's abilities as a mother. Though my thoughts on her abilities as a mother are not limited to this single event.

Forgive me if I confused by bringing up BJ's capability to actually give birth and have the children develop inside her. What I meant to say is my thoughts on her capabilities as a mother don't matter if she never actually becomes one.

@Atikin I do have an idea for what would make me happier with the situation. But, like I asked with Hinds would you mind terribly if we put a pin in this?

[atikin]

Of course I don't mind. Let's change the topic.

[O. Hinds]

@Last:
Well, I suppose we can do that; we do seem to be having a lot of progress-hindering misunderstandings.  I'd still like to try to increase understanding here, though.

[Icy Shake]

Looks like someone's trying to make a PH audiobook with multiple speaking roles, and they're seeking auditions.

Best of luck to them, but it certainly is, as they say, a "long term project." Good to see they're aware of that and are at least trying to weed out people who can't stick around for a year or more.

[Evilgidgit]

@IcyShake: I just noticed you had a character sheet. This is very helpful. Though, I noticed some empty spaces:

Jetstream was implied to be sent to the zebra capital Roam by Garnet to "rescue" Big Mac and Stonewing, but her teleportation device is actually a megaspell bomb.

Colonel Cupcake's corpse was found in his office by Blackjack and Glory at Miramare.

Stonewing/Gorgon's debut is in Chapter 9.

[SilentCarto]

(Sorry for the really, really super late reply, here...)

But wasn't it always not a straight shot? Isn't that something that the Legate and his Starkatteri super orbital calculation talent should have told him? Or did he not think about the actual location of the lunar base?

Well, remember that Horizons was GB's response after finding out about the Eater. The concept may have played into Amadi's hooves, but that doesn't mean he knew all the details.

“Life is a lot like you, Goldenblood.  A rancid, festering corpse that, by some cruel joke of the universe, keeps struggling on, spreading pain and suffering.  And I will crush it and you, you rotten little worm, under my hooves.  I will end the joke and take my war to the stars so that they, too, can find the peace of nonexistence.  

Wow that sounds like the Angel.

Well, I guess I wouldn't be surprised if the Angel was influenced by the Eater...

I really wanted more foals for this.
So it occurs to me that the Legate, based on his whole schtick now, shouldn't have ever wanted kids. Guess it was a cover, necessary to keep the trust of people he needed to work for him?

To be fair, he never seemed to hold any particular affection for Lancer.

Whisper hovered before him.  “Me.  You took my husband.  You won’t take anything else.”

Weren't her wings crushed, then one of them badly shot? Are healing potions enough for that, or did she get some Hydra offscreen?

Eh, potions have always fixed broken bones pretty easily. Pip got crippled on a fairly regular basis and never needed restoration potions for anything short of lost organs or massive injury.

“He’s been at this for years.  Who knows what he was doing in Hoofington during the war?  The designs for the city were always odd.  Strange additions and requests.  Plans changing in the middle of the night.  Everything was built so quickly, nopony put it all together.  The Core was likely shut down, building up power for this.  Celestia One gave him the energy he needed.  Now he’ll bring it up, and be able to align it perfectly to catch and devour Tom when it impacts.”

Wasn't that Cogs's plan, the capture part, even though she didn't know this aspect existed? Is it even necessary?

Yes, but the key point is that the trap is aimed to catch a straight shot. To catch a more steeply falling shot, he has to angle the entire setup -- presumably to catch Tom on one side of the trap so it slides down the FADE shield as long as possible.

“I’m not going to kill somepony just because I can.  We can lock him up somewhere!” Velvet protested.

1. OH MY GOD HAVE YOU BEEN PAYING ATTENTION YOU DUMB BITCH
2. FUCK YOU YOU GODDAMNED HYPOCRITE

I know, I know, I know... Well, she hasn't been party to most of Amadi's actions, so she probably thinks of him as a high-level general with a few weird zebra tricks, not an immortal chessmaster personally responsible for millions of deaths. Still, she definitely didn't come off well in this scenario. Which is, I suppose, as it should be. I never object to Velvet looking foolish.

That heart didn’t regenerate him.  It restored him.  Kept his body locked in one state.  Time was effectively stopped for his body,” the Starkatteri filly said, grinning wickedly.  “Now it’s not.  Now it’s catching up on him.  A thousand years of growth and injury and all the pains of the flesh, at once.  Plus all the nastiness that comes with having a cursed lump of rock in your chest for a couple millennia."

Ooh, that doesn't sound good for Rampage.

Rampage is an entirely different method to reach a similar result. Notice that Amadi's blasted-off bits pull back together, while Rampage regenerates new flesh and leaves the old behind. Amadi is apparently using a stasis spell of some description, while Rampage's souls are powering a healing talisman.


By the way, did we ever find out what music the second song was based on? I know the rhythm doesn't fit, but when I read it, I had something kinda like this in mind.

[O. Hinds]

As I recall, the second song was an original composition.

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