Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

[Harmony Ltd.]

... Why am I imagining a Porcan committing seppuku ?...

[O. Hinds]

... Why am I imagining a Porcan committing seppuku ?...

...I honestly have no idea. I'm thinking back over the recent topics, and... nope, still no idea.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Because my mind was wandering in dark places and this sparked some creativity.

The question was rhetorical, joking on the apparent non-sequitur of the thought.

Anyway, got me thinking... Griffins apparently put, culturally, an heavy emphasis on their "contract" and respecting its terms... How do you think they would react, psychologically, after having betrayed the terms of their contracts ?

...

By the way, with so many griffins in the NCR, with a culture honor bound to respect contracts, and with the founder of the NCR herself being a griffin, this might have interesting implications over how the NCR is run, and the potential conflicts which may arise from that...

[O. Hinds]

Oh, by the way, Harmony Ltd., you didn't reply to my reply about the train through Miliozi territory.

Because my mind was wandering in dark places and this sparked some creativity.

The question was rhetorical, joking on the apparent non-sequitur of the thought.

Ah.

Anyway, got me thinking... Griffins apparently put, culturally, an heavy emphasis on their "contract" and respecting its terms... How do you think they would react, psychologically, after having betrayed the terms of their contracts ?

Ah, no ideas there, sorry. I assume that it would not be a pleasant reaction, though.

By the way, with so many griffins in the NCR, with a culture honor bound to respect contracts, and with the founder of the NCR herself being a griffin, this might have interesting implications over how the NCR is run, and the potential conflicts which may arise from that...

Aye… interesting… I've no specific ideas at the moment, though. I've not devoted much thinking time to griffins, I'm afraid, but I'm quite interested to hear other ideas in this vein.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Oh, by the way, Harmony Ltd., you didn't reply to my reply about the train through Miliozi territory.

Thanks for reminding me, it had slipped through the cracks of my skull and dripped on the floor ; drying and cracking, turning to dust, to be carried by the wind and dispersed into nothingness.

In short, I had forgotten about that line of thought.

[O. Hinds]

Oh, by the way, Harmony Ltd., you didn't reply to my reply about the train through Miliozi territory.

Thanks for reminding me, it had slipped through the cracks of my skull and dripped on the floor ; drying and cracking, turning to dust, to be carried by the wind and dispersed into nothingness.

In short, I had forgotten about that line of thought.

:)
It's back on Page 22, I think.

[Harmony Ltd.]

(also at this point you can just call me "Harmony" or even "Harm" : everybody does)


Anyway, regarding the train line of thought (*badum-tish*) :

Assuming the standard trucks of the NCR can sustain 20 kilometers per hour on average on dirt roads, with a carrying capacity of 5 metric tons, the travel between Fillydelphia and Junction by road through Maripony (approximately 500 kilometers) would take 25 hours. Unloaded, the trucks would maybe be able to go at 30 KpH on average. So taking into account the time to load and unload the trucks, and some rest for the vehicles for basic maintenance, Fillydelphia-Junction and back would take around 50 hours. That's 100 kilogram of scrap per hour per truck transported, while consuming probably something around 150-300 L of ethanol for the round trip.

Passing through the western road would cut the travel distance and subsequently the fuel consumption and time taken for a round trip by easily 40%.

And if the Alliance allow even only one train of "only" 500 tons of carrying capacity every week to travel between Filly and Junction... That's 100 truck cycles avoided.

To cover the same tonnage of scrap moved in one week, the NCR would need to have something like at least 30 trucks in movement at any given time between Filly and Junction on the eastern road. And if you count the constraints of wear and tear this would induce on the hardware, you would have to double the amount of vehicles necessary to 60 to sustain the same carrying capacity as just

one train

of 500 tons carrying capacity

per week

That's roughly forty wagons like that : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_wagon

[Harmony Ltd.]

So basically, this would make sense from a logistical standpoint for the NCR to use whenever possible the western road, even if it's the alliance doing the moving from end to end : this would economically be a net gain, and in the end it would help the NCR doing sufficient economies to later gather enough resources to build a train track of its own on the eastern road.

Also, at this point it's good to have something the NCR and the Alliance can "trade".

[O. Hinds]

(also at this point you can just call me "Harmony" or even "Harm" : everybody does)

Hey, thanks!

Anyway, regarding the train line of thought (*badum-tish*)

:D

Assuming the standard trucks of the NCR can sustain 20 kilometers per hour on average on dirt roads, with a carrying capacity of 5 metric tons, the travel between Fillydelphia and Junction by road through Maripony (approximately 500 kilometers) would take 25 hours. Unloaded, the trucks would maybe be able to go at 30 KpH on average. So taking into account the time to load and unload the trucks, and some rest for the vehicles for basic maintenance, Fillydelphia-Junction and back would take around 50 hours. That's 100 kilogram of scrap per hour per truck transported, while consuming probably something around 150-300 L of ethanol for the round trip.

Passing through the western road would cut the travel distance and subsequently the fuel consumption and time taken for a round trip by easily 40%.

And if the Alliance allow even only one train of "only" 500 tons of carrying capacity every week to travel between Filly and Junction... That's 100 truck cycles avoided.

To cover the same tonnage of scrap moved in one week, the NCR would need to have something like at least 30 trucks in movement at any given time between Filly and Junction on the eastern road. And if you count the constraints of wear and tear this would induce on the hardware, you would have to double the amount of vehicles necessary to 60 to sustain the same carrying capacity as just

one train

of 500 tons carrying capacity

per week

That's roughly forty wagons like that : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_wagon

The trains are faster, too, more than five times the speed once the track is fully online.

So basically, this would make sense from a logistical standpoint for the NCR to use whenever possible the western road, even if it's the alliance doing the moving from end to end : this would economically be a net gain, and in the end it would help the NCR doing sufficient economies to later gather enough resources to build a train track of its own on the eastern road.

Also, at this point it's good to have something the NCR and the Alliance can "trade".

Indeed. Of course, the NCR will have to pay for the service and will consider the price even higher due to it supporting the Alliance, but the Alliance can still make it cheaper than the NCR doing it itself.

Regarding the configuration and frequency of trains, that will probably depend on the pricing system; the Alliance will try to use whatever configuration gives it the most profit.

[Harmony Ltd.]

On the other hand, a sky chariot carried by a griffin could easily transport 300 kg of payload, at at least 60 Kph on average, and by skirting around the edges of the Everfree to shorten the distance while avoiding flying over it, reduce the trip length by 1/5th while going 3 time faster.

At most : 6 hours and 40 minutes for a trip ; adding 2 hours and 30 minutes for loading, unloading, and rotating the pair of griffin or the three pegasi carrying the wagon during flight. 9 hours and 10 minutes for a trip. Less than 20 hours for a round trip.

2.5 times more round trips in the same amount of time it takes to do one round trip with a truck.

Only 1/5th of the tonnage per unit of time per truck, but it would require no fuel (I think ?), and be free from the constraint of land infrastructure.

[Harmony Ltd.]

And require less maintenance. Though it would require more people : four griffin or six pegasi for a round trip, six griffin or nine pegasi per sky chariot to sustain constant operation.

[Harmony Ltd.]

As I've maybe already said, I think Griffin / Pegasi will have a hard time being unemployed in the NCR.

Earth ponies as well will be wanted in the fields.

Unicorns will not lack jobs either.

At the condition, though, that the NCR has the initiative of giving these jobs to everyone...

[Harmony Ltd.]

By the way, 500 tons of scrap a week, that's 25,000 tons of scrap per year.

Considering there's I would say easily 500,000 tons of potential scrap to be harvested in Filly, that's easily 20 years of exploitation.

And in practice I would hazard a guess that there's more like 1 or even 2 million tons of potential scrap in Filly.


You'd have to do some math, but I would think that's enough to build a respectable railroad infrastructure.

[Meleagridis]

Ah, thanks.
Though... It occurs to me: how well-coded are Rusty's orders?  Because Elusive does have some experience breaking safeguards.  There might not be a good enough connection for that, though.
By the way, I'm now, you probably won't be surprised to hear, curious about what the release parameter is.  :)

Well instead of that, have half of the musician stable's story:
Stable 92 was originally intended to simply be a test of the power of music to hold together a community, but over the course of its development it grew to more and more sinister subsonic experiments. As faith in community waned further, it became geared towards trying to find a way to strengthen society as a whole. The final experiment was something completely alien from its wholesome beginnings, though still staffed with musically inclined test subjects. The experiment hoped to find strength through criticism, aiming to entice the masses to question their leadership constantly. The hope was that this would lead to an open, honest, and accessible governing body that was truly a servant to the populace, and that the people in turn would be engaged in their leadership. A system was put in place that spread an enchantment through the stable's speakers. It would cause those affected to become more suspicious, more cautious, more wary. The effect was more than intended, however, and the mild criticism steadily grew into an ever-present paranoia and fear. The Overseer (just gonna say Overseer here, pardon my human) was not only constantly mistrusted and hated by the population, the job became a death sentence. Though there were never any violent coups, after a few generations every Overseer 'retired' through mysterious disappearances and was never seen again.

Sometimes explorers find it:

[Harmony Ltd.]

Also, regarding the logistics of the NCR's agricultural sector,

I think sky-chariots for fresh vegetable and pony-drawn carriages for the heavy loads like cereals, with food produced as close as possible to the centers of population, might be what would most likely happen.

The trucks aren't exactly fuel-efficient, and given the fuel is made from agricultural products and the process of turning agricultural products into fuel isn't the most efficient in itself... Well, a mechanized logistics might be counter-productive.


The logistics of the NCR is an interesting point of study, I find. For example, I think that for short distances (up to 60-80 kilometers) and light to medium loads (up to 400 kilogram per pony), the most likely mean of transportation for goods would be the good ol' caravans.

[Harmony Ltd.]

{music}

Ah, it's always a pleasure seeing new talents blooming... You're listening to Radio New Appleloosa, I'm your host Mr. New Appleloosa and that was Buck Ellington's "It don't mean a thing". Yes, there ain't no doubt about that, Buck.

Next up on RNA, a true classic that was passed down the Stronghoof line for generations ! This is "When you're smiling", because there is nothing more precious than seeing to each others' happiness.

{music}

[O. Hinds]

Ah, thanks.
Though... It occurs to me: how well-coded are Rusty's orders?  Because Elusive does have some experience breaking safeguards.  There might not be a good enough connection for that, though.
By the way, I'm now, you probably won't be surprised to hear, curious about what the release parameter is.  :)

Well instead of that, have half of the musician stable's story:
Stable 92 was originally intended to simply be a test of the power of music to hold together a community, but over the course of its development it grew to more and more sinister subsonic experiments. As faith in community waned further, it became geared towards trying to find a way to strengthen society as a whole. The final experiment was something completely alien from its wholesome beginnings, though still staffed with musically inclined test subjects. The experiment hoped to find strength through criticism, aiming to entice the masses to question their leadership constantly. The hope was that this would lead to an open, honest, and accessible governing body that was truly a servant to the populace, and that the people in turn would be engaged in their leadership. A system was put in place that spread an enchantment through the stable's speakers. It would cause those affected to become more suspicious, more cautious, more wary. The effect was more than intended, however, and the mild criticism steadily grew into an ever-present paranoia and fear. The Overseer (just gonna say Overseer here, pardon my human) was not only constantly mistrusted and hated by the population, the job became a death sentence. Though there were never any violent coups, after a few generations every Overseer 'retired' through mysterious disappearances and was never seen again.

Sometimes explorers find it:

Neat!

Also, regarding the logistics of the NCR's agricultural sector,

I think sky-chariots for fresh vegetable and pony-drawn carriages for the heavy loads like cereals, with food produced as close as possible to the centers of population, might be what would most likely happen.

The trucks aren't exactly fuel-efficient, and given the fuel is made from agricultural products and the process of turning agricultural products into fuel isn't the most efficient in itself... Well, a mechanized logistics might be counter-productive.


The logistics of the NCR is an interesting point of study, I find. For example, I think that for short distances (up to 60-80 kilometers) and light to medium loads (up to 400 kilogram per pony), the most likely mean of transportation for goods would be the good ol' caravans.

Makes sense.  It also seems to me more likely to have plot in it.  :)

The Alliance uses a lot of rail transport, but then they don't have many pegasi and do have petrofuels (and have had longer to build up a rail infrastructure).  And of course, for a lot of stuff they have no choice but to use air or sea transport (though there are plans to build a tunnel across the Strait of Gibhalter and repair the rail lines running from there to Masozi, there are currently both technical and diplomatic barriers involved… and even then, Elusive City still wouldn't be reachable by land).

[Harmony Ltd.]

I had a thought :

Zebrica is a huge place, and it can't all be empty space.

What about Hyenas ?

[Harmony Ltd.]

Hinds, a few questions regarding your map :


The lake southeast of Fancee, why is it there ? Is it only because there was a hole in the ground and the rain filled it with water ?

Thinking a bit about it, the lake would need the region to be rainy enough to sustain the lake's level as it empty into the Trotson river ( horse puns everywhere ).

[Harmony Ltd.]

Oh, also, the river that's north of maripony and south New Appleloosa... I see it goes into the Everfree, but I don't see it coming out.

Where does it go ?


And, huh... what the fuck... does the river *split* in two completely different directions east of Fillydelphia ? What is this sorcery ?!

[O. Hinds]

I had a thought :

Zebrica is a huge place, and it can't all be empty space.

What about Hyenas ?

Hm, maybe.  They're not hooved, though, so I don't know if they'd be sentient.

The lake southeast of Fancee, why is it there ? Is it only because there was a hole in the ground and the rain filled it with water ?

That's what I was thinking.

Thinking a bit about it, the lake would need the region to be rainy enough to sustain the lake's level as it empty into the Trotson river ( horse puns everywhere ).

:)
Aye.  That's pretty much the only outflow, though, and the lake likely has a relatively large collection area.

Oh, also, the river that's north of maripony and south New Appleloosa... I see it goes into the Everfree, but I don't see it coming out.

Where does it go ?

Either underground or joining up with the river along the forest's border.

And, huh... what the fuck... does the river *split* in two completely different directions east of Fillydelphia ? What is this sorcery ?!

You see that small patch of mountainous shading just northeast of Fillydelphia?  My idea was that the river hit that and broke into two.  Though, looking at it now, I suppose I could make the northern river the outflow of the one going into the Everfree.  I'd likely have to redo the border between the Everfree and the desert where the river currently is, though. It would also require a new Present Day ZOCs map.  What do you think?

Oh, and in case you've not noticed it yet (I assumed that you'd noticed and accepted the above one, but apparently not), the river split in the south is engineering.  :)  As I've mentioned before, I believe, the river originally flowed east, but geologic events, maybe as simple as a landslide, diverted it to flow west instead.  Much later, the engineers building the canal system used the old eastern river course as part of it.

[O. Hinds]

Ooh, perhaps there are some nice waterfalls at the Fillydelphia Split. If so, it ought to have been/be a nice tourist attraction, outside a major city and in a scenic location. Though the locks for navigability might spoil the view a bit... Hm...

[Harmony Ltd.]

I had a thought :

Zebrica is a huge place, and it can't all be empty space.

What about Hyenas ?

Hm, maybe.  They're not hooved, though, so I don't know if they'd be sentient.

Well, Griffins don't have hooves. Neither do Dogs.

The lake southeast of Fancee, why is it there ? Is it only because there was a hole in the ground and the rain filled it with water ?

That's what I was thinking.

The question then (which we don't have to answer but would nonetheless be interesting to know) would be :

Why was this hole there, and how deep was / is it ? Is it just like a 30-50 meters depression in the ground, or a 500-1000 meters deeps crater / caldera / rift ?

Thinking a bit about it, the lake would need the region to be rainy enough to sustain the lake's level as it empty into the Trotson river ( horse puns everywhere ).

:)
Aye.  That's pretty much the only outflow, though, and the lake likely has a relatively large collection area.

So, this would paint the Northern Territories as being naturally rainy, and with a number of little rivers which are not described on the map but nonetheless existing...

It could fit with Hoofington's exceptional rainfall regimen. The northern coast would be subjected to the storm-prone climate of the northern sea / islands.

Oh, also, the river that's north of maripony and south New Appleloosa... I see it goes into the Everfree, but I don't see it coming out.

Where does it go ?

Either underground or joining up with the river along the forest's border.

I'd say staying above ground and joining with the river that marks the southwestern border of the state of Old Appleloosa.

And, huh... what the fuck... does the river *split* in two completely different directions east of Fillydelphia ? What is this sorcery ?!

You see that small patch of mountainous shading just northeast of Fillydelphia?  My idea was that the river hit that and broke into two.  Though, looking at it now, I suppose I could make the northern river the outflow of the one going into the Everfree.  I'd likely have to redo the border between the Everfree and the desert where the river currently is, though.  It would also require a new Present Day ZOCs map.  What do you think?

Oh, and in case you've not noticed it yet (I assumed that you'd noticed and accepted the above one, but apparently not), the river split in the south is engineering.  :)  As I've mentioned before, I believe, the river originally flowed east, but geologic events, maybe as simple as a landslide, diverted it to flow west instead.  Much later, the engineers building the canal system used the old eastern river course as part of it.

I'm sorry, but you'll have to do a drawing on this one, because I'm not sure understand all you're talking about here.

I'll just say that the Everfree is a natural border on its own.

Also, what canal system ?

[O. Hinds]

Well, Griffins don't have hooves. Neither do Dogs.

…That is a good point that had previously somehow completely escaped me.  Interesting idea.  I've no elaborating ideas on it at the moment, though.

The question then (which we don't have to answer but would nonetheless be interesting to know) would be :

Why was this hole there, and how deep was / is it ? Is it just like a 30-50 meters depression in the ground, or a 500-1000 meters deeps crater / caldera / rift ?

I'm not entirely sure, but I was thinking that much if not most of it was the same tectonic/geological/astronomical forces responsible for most of the shape of the peninsula (note how, slightly farther north, the land has pulled apart and the sea has flowed into the thus-formed lower areas).

I'd say staying above ground and joining with the river that marks the southwestern border of the state of Old Appleloosa.

Righto.  That may have been what I was thinking originally.  I didn't bother to draw the river's course because, well, it's the Everfree.

I'll just say that the Everfree is a natural border on its own.

…So do you think that I ought to redo the rivers?  If so, though, yes, the Everfree is a natural border, but what shape ought that border to be?

Also, what canal system ?

The canal/river system (using navigable rivers where possible, using locks and canals were not) across the isthmus, built prior to the war as a cooperative effort by Equestria and the Pax Roamana.

I'm sorry, but you'll have to do a drawing on this one, because I'm not sure understand all you're talking about here.

Hm, but I can't draw very well at all… Oh, idea!

I was thinking of something in principle like this:

Oh, and, come to think of it, the same rough sort of thing happens in Hoofington (only the rivers join back up very shortly and the split is masked by the dams).  ...I'm not sure if that's a good thing (precedent) or a bad thing (probability).

[Harmony Ltd.]

What I think, personnaly, is that the most logical thing would be that there is one natural river passing through Fillydelphia, flowing from east to west and ending in the San Frantello bay,

That the river going through the Everfree is the one that pass in the west of Old Appleloosa,

and that the section of navigable river going between these two rivers, west of the Everfree would be a canal, built when Equestria started its industrialization, to move easily the goods produced in Fillydelphia to the markets of Manehattan using barges.

Of course there's the question of how the thing evolved on its own for two centuries without being maintained. I would hazard the guess that the canal would need quite bit of work to be used again. As would the locks.

On the other hand, that would be an easy way to move goods that doesn't go through Alliance territories (though bordering it).

[O. Hinds]

What I think, personnaly, is that the most logical thing would be that there is one natural river passing through Fillydelphia, flowing from east to west and ending in the San Frantello bay,

That the river going through the Everfree is the one that pass in the west of Old Appleloosa,

and that the section of navigable river going between these two rivers, west of the Everfree would be a canal, built when Equestria started its industrialization, to move easily the goods produced in Fillydelphia to the markets of Manehattan using barges.

Of course there's the question of how the thing evolved on its own for two centuries without being maintained. I would hazard the guess that the canal would need quite bit of work to be used again. As would the locks.

On the other hand, that would be an easy way to move goods that doesn't go through Alliance territories (though bordering it).

Hm, you're proposing that the canal builders cut the forest back and/or the forest grew up to the canal?  The second one sounds good actually.  Okay, I like it; thank you very much!  This way we don't have to change any of the maps!  :D  We just need to remember that that's a canal.


So I saw this on YouTube today, and it has interesting similarities to the ARCANN system.  The main difference is that the ARCANN system uses fewer, bigger balloons that stationkeep.  They might eventually move to something more like the Loon, but that would require a lot more balloons and a more sophisticated navigation system.


Also, Harmony, didn't you have a headcanon about a slaver town along San Frantello Bay?  Any idea how they would have responded to a pair of Skysharks sweeping in from the direction of Masozi and a steadily growing dust cloud?  :)

edit: fixed link

[Harmony Ltd.]

The slaver town idea wasn't mine. *point in the direction of Meleagridis*

[O. Hinds]

The slaver town idea wasn't mine. *point in the direction of Meleagridis*

Ah, my apologies.

Meleagridis, same question. :)

[Harmony Ltd.]

No need to apologize. And I'm not even sur it was him. Could have been Silentcarto or Stringtheory. Or someone else.

Anyway regarding the bit of canal linking together the two river systems, not even going into the possibility of the Everfree growing over things and absorbing them, my thought was that simply after two centuries of not being maintained the canals may be hardly navigable.

[Meleagridis]

No need to apologize. And I'm not even sur it was him. Could have been Silentcarto or Stringtheory. Or someone else.

I think so. I don't remember anything about a Frantello slaver town. Were there any interesting features?

Anyway regarding the bit of canal linking together the two river systems, not even going into the possibility of the Everfree growing over things and absorbing them, my thought was that simply after two centuries of not being maintained the canals may be hardly navigable.

"And then there was this huge beast-"

"Horrible beast! He done reared up out of the water loik a livin' purple wave and-"

"And then he opened up his ruttin' horrible, stinkin' mouth and he shouts-"

"And he just screams, all bloody murder-like, 'My moo-stash!' he screams-"

"He screams 'My boo-tuh-ful moo-stash!' It was 'orrible!"

"Aye, aye, I though we were gonners we were! But then Private Nip'n'Tuck-"

"Then Private Nip'n'Tuck jumps right on the ruttin' monster's face and he-"

"And all we hear is the monster moaning and Nip'n'Tuck screamin' and-"

"And when he jumps off, there's some orful caterpillar of Nip'n'Tuck's mane on the thing and-"

"An' then the bastard makes all these orful sounds like some kina whistiling and-"

"And then he drags us right through the muck an' the overgrown trees an' the hoppers and-"

"An' roit to here! The-"

"The end!"

"Anyways, 'eres your mail. Ahem, 'Not sleet nor hail nor ruttin' giant serpents be stayin' an earth pony from 'is appointed rounds.' Have a good one."

"Aye, have a good one."

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