Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

[Guest]

What makes me mad about TCB isn't the story itself. It's how some people react to it.

I've recently had the misfortune of buying a book from the "SF Action" series without looking, as I was in a hurry, needed a book to pass the time and didn't look into it on the spot. It's by a guy who took the pseudonym "Yar Elterrus" (that should have been my fucking first and only clue that would be needed to leave the thing in the shop). Its premise is... well, it has many parallels with TCB. Sadly, it was written much earlier than TCB, so I can't accuse the guy of ripping off ideas; not that there's a shortage of things to accuse him of.

Warning: bullshit story ahead:

AND THE AUTHOR PRESENTS THIS AS A GOOD THING.

...So, my problem is that I see tons of people eat this shit right up, like they do the original TCB story and its like.

You got libertarianism in my fascism! Or possibly vice versa, I dunno. They can be closely related as it is. Nobody ever said SF authors had to be well-balanced or clever!

If looking for SF, consider William Gibson - The Difference Engine or Neuromancer are good starts. If you're looking for soft, satiric, and often dark SF, I can't recommend Jack Vance enough (as in, I think I have done so before, and probably sound like a broken record at this point).

[IncoherentOrange]

What makes me mad about TCB isn't the story itself. It's how some people react to it.

I've recently had the misfortune of buying a book from the "SF Action" series without looking, as I was in a hurry, needed a book to pass the time and didn't look into it on the spot. It's by a guy who took the pseudonym "Yar Elterrus" (that should have been my fucking first and only clue that would be needed to leave the thing in the shop). Its premise is... well, it has many parallels with TCB. Sadly, it was written much earlier than TCB, so I can't accuse the guy of ripping off ideas; not that there's a shortage of things to accuse him of.

Warning: bullshit story ahead:

AND THE AUTHOR PRESENTS THIS AS A GOOD THING.

...So, my problem is that I see tons of people eat this shit right up, like they do the original TCB story and its like.

Nobody ever said SF authors had to be well-balanced or clever!

If looking for SF, consider William Gibson - The Difference Engine or Neuromancer are good starts. If you're looking for soft, satiric, and often dark SF, I can't recommend Jack Vance enough (as in, I think I have done so before, and probably sound like a broken record at this point).

SF authors not needing to be clever? I write SF, (pony SF) and I absolutely agree, especially since I'm not among the cleverest; it's been a few times now it's been pointed out that I don't know jack about something I've talked about. (Mostly outside the story, fortunately.) I've liked the works of Clarke, myself. Not so much a fan of Niven. I need to read more, maybe try some Asimov.

However, I try to be a balanced author, and a major part of the story I'm writing is portraying humanity accurately. (It's been said that it's 'nice to see humans not acting like children,' when they're just acting, well, normal, and after mentioning that humanity's trying to learn from mistakes made in the past. He phrases it as though we aren't today, already, and this story takes place an untold amount of time into the future.) Yes, people eat TCB-esque stuff up, along with other bullshit like most (or all) of humanity being useless or evil.

I'm a cynical optimist, if that's possible. I can see the worst, and I hope for the best. As I say, idealism is my favorite delusion.

[Harmony Ltd.]

I'm a cynical optimist, if that's possible. I can see the worst, and I hope for the best. As I say, idealism is my favorite delusion.

The poison is in the dose either way.

Some of either can be beneficial. Too much, however...

Let's just say it's best to find a point of balance.

[IncoherentOrange]

I try to, usually leaning toward the more cynical, however.

[Ironmonger]

Malcador tank. More like Make-a-door given the size of that demolisher cannon.

Spoiler:

[Stringtheory]

Malcador tank. More like Make-a-door given the size of that demolisher cannon.

Spoiler:

bah, the Baneblade is clearly superior, having 11 barrels, to the Malcador's 5

Spoiler:

[Ironmonger]

The malcador is like the Leman Russ' retarded cousin. It was an excuse for me to make a play on words.

[Stringtheory]

The malcador is like the Leman Russ' retarded cousin. It was an excuse for me to make a play on words.

you know what's scary? back in the dark age of technology, the Baneblade was classified as a 'light battle tank'

[Ironmonger]

The malcador is like the Leman Russ' retarded cousin. It was an excuse for me to make a play on words.

you know what's scary? back in the dark age of technology, the Baneblade was classified as a 'light battle tank'

...I just realized that GW doesn't elaborate on the Dark Age of Technology so they can introduce more stuff. Mother fucker I am oblivious sometimes...

[Stringtheory]

The malcador is like the Leman Russ' retarded cousin. It was an excuse for me to make a play on words.

you know what's scary? back in the dark age of technology, the Baneblade was classified as a 'light battle tank'

...I just realized that GW doesn't elaborate on the Dark Age of Technology so they can introduce more stuff. Mother fucker I am oblivious sometimes...

eh, not really, at least from my point of view, it's supposed to be unknown because all the history was lost in the age of strife, that's the fluff explanation, but yes, probably from a company/marketing standpoint your reasoning is probably correct

[Ironmonger]

I feel like applauding them for that. That's the type of chess game I'd play.
EDIT: Then again, I've never actually won a game of chess.

[RoboRed]

...Because you kept throwing a rock at the board, knocking over the pieces, claiming it was a nuke?

[Ironmonger]

...Because you kept throwing a rock at the board, knocking over the pieces, claiming it was a nuke?

Hey, that would teach the enemy king to raise taxes! I guess I...really rocked their world.

[RoboRed]

...Goddamnit...I set myself up for that one...

[Ironmonger]

...Goddamnit...I set myself up for that one...

What did we learn? I always win! I grinned so hard that I bared fangs. EDIT: Scout with a double rifle. Imagine it.

[Cptadder]

The malcador is like the Leman Russ' retarded cousin. It was an excuse for me to make a play on words.

you know what's scary? back in the dark age of technology, the Baneblade was classified as a 'light battle tank'

...I just realized that GW doesn't elaborate on the Dark Age of Technology so they can introduce more stuff. Mother fucker I am oblivious sometimes...

eh, not really, at least from my point of view, it's supposed to be unknown because all the history was lost in the age of strife, that's the fluff explanation, but yes, probably from a company/marketing standpoint your reasoning is probably correct

Always leave yourself some expansion room But yes the Baneblade is a light tank because it's armor is made of weakpoints and blind spots. A modern M1A2 Abrams can take a Baneblade and win because a Baneblade is made of grimdark not lethality.

But then it's a long running trope that the only kind of fiction that can design a tank that makes sense is Non-Fiction. Kick ass fighter jets that would work? I can name ten examples off the top of my head. Super special awesome small unit weaponry and cool side arms? Dime a dozen, anyone can design a future gun.

But a future tank that's not made of concentrated stupid?
....Nope

[Ironmonger]

The Leman Russ and Predator tanks are more realistic, and even then they have some issues. Primarily size.

40K seems to have some realism but it's hard to find in a pile of grimdark.

[Stringtheory]

The Leman Russ and Predator tanks are more realistic, and even then they have some issues. Primarily size.

40K seems to have some realism but it's hard to find in a pile of grimdark.

and the fact that their side armor isn't sloped, thereby leaving a huge area for stuff to easily penetrate

[Ironmonger]

and the fact that their side armor isn't sloped, thereby leaving a huge area for stuff to easily penetrate

See, that's partly why I like talking to you guys. You point out stuff I somehow miss.

I can understand some of the stuff in the setting given the whole galaxy is like one big bar room brawl. The only systems exempt from that are possibly the core Imperial worlds like Holy Terra and the inner Tau worlds. Not sure of the Necrons or Eldar honestly. Point being that in so much chaos a few things are going to slide or be left unchecked...then someone dies or your plasma gun decides it doesn't like you.

There also needs to be some King of the Hill/Warhammer 40K memes. I purge heresy and heresy accessories.

[Cptadder]

The Leman Russ and Predator tanks are more realistic, and even then they have some issues. Primarily size.

40K seems to have some realism but it's hard to find in a pile of grimdark.

and the fact that their side armor isn't sloped, thereby leaving a huge area for stuff to easily penetrate

How about the even more major issue, the unarmed and uncovered treads on all the tanks meaning that they can be de-tracked easily. Even a 37mm World War 1 vintage gun should be able to pop a track with a decent hit.

The number one tank issue that makes tanks not targets is height, taller the dumber. The second is effective fire power because two small tanks with big guns beats one big tank with two big guns. The best armored tank at the moment most think is the German Leopard 2 because of it's crazy hull design and honeycomb armor structure. It's better armored than anything in 40k if not better armed than most. But Games Workshop said, WW1 design style so we get WW1 style tanks.

*Edit
According to official sources the Leman Russ has a third the amount of armor the Leopard 2 is moving around.

[Ironmonger]

Care to link me to that? You have me curious now.

[Ketchup]

How about the even more major issue, the unarmed and uncovered treads on all the tanks meaning that they can be de-tracked easily. Even a 37mm World War 1 vintage gun should be able to pop a track with a decent hit.

The number one tank issue that makes tanks not targets is height, taller the dumber. The second is effective fire power because two small tanks with big guns beats one big tank with two big guns. The best armored tank at the moment most think is the German Leopard 2 because of it's crazy hull design and honeycomb armor structure. It's better armored than anything in 40k if not better armed than most. But Games Workshop said, WW1 design style so we get WW1 style tanks.

*Edit
According to official sources the Leman Russ has a third the amount of armor the Leopard 2 is moving around.

Other things I've noted about the Leman Russ:
It would have high ground pressure due to the very thin tracks compared to the rest of the vehicle.
I agree it is tall, according to Lexicanum it has a height of 4.4 meters compared to 3 meters for the Leopard 2.
Maximum speed is 35 km/h on roads. This is half of what a Leopard can go.

[Ironmonger]

I'm heavily considering redesigning some stuff from warhammer 40K now. First up will be the Leman Rustled Jimmies.

[Cptadder]

Care to link me to that? You have me curious now.

40k Leman Russ stats
Stats are taken from Imperial Armour book 40k put out a number of years ago.
So lets review
Leman Russ
Weight-60 tons
Top speed offroad-21 KpH
Armor Profile- Front 180mm, Turret 100mm, Sides/back 150mm

Fprado
Stats are from various sources as official stats are classified to this day.
Compared to the Leopard 2A5
Weight-62.3 tons
Top Speed offroad - Rated at 60 KpH most are engine limited to 45 KpH to save wear on suspensions during peacetime
Armor Profile- 620mm RHAe Front, Turret 920mm RHAe, 400-600 RHAe sides/back.

What does RHAe stand for?
RHAe = Rolled Homogeneous Armor Equivalent
IE RHAe is shorthand for "if the armor was made of 100% steel it would need to be this thick to provide equivalent protection at a 90 degree angle. The Leopard 2 raw armor amount is estimated at 240mm angled between 30 to 60 degrees to result in one of the greatest armor of any tank in the world. In other words unless your another Leopard or some other tank with a 120mm main gun your going to bounce everything off the front of the Leopard. To the point that which back in the late 90s they spent two days bouncing RP7's, 90mm's and 105mm main guns just bouncing shell after shell at combat ranges. And this was not multiple targets but a single target and multiple weapon system and they spent a day not penetrating that armor. The modern 2A6 has even more add on armor to the tracks and top to ward off RPG hits including top attack missiles. And oh yes the Leopard like all tanks today includes the hooks you need to hang on additonal armor in the form of your luggage, sandbags, sticks and anything else to disguise the tank.

[Ketchup]

Thus, in modern warfare, the Leman would be Awesome, but Impractical. There are also no provisions for stopping tandem charges or any spaced armor of any kind.
There are also likely many millions of Lemans. Tis what the Impy Guard are about.
Edit: Or would it be this?

[Ironmonger]

In other words the Leman Russ is a giant T-34 with a bunch of big guns and little else. Cheap, uncomfortable, huge, reliable, thinly armored. Barely anything the T-34 is known for.

[Cptadder]

In other words the Leman Russ is a giant T-34 with a bunch of big guns and little else. Cheap, uncomfortable, huge, reliable, thinly armored. Barely anything the T-34 is known for.

No it's a T-32, under armored, top heavy with multiple turrets and a disaster when used in combat against well equipped foes.
But it does so look pretty in parades.

[Ironmonger]

Sounds more like the T-35. Oh dear Lord that thing is an embarrassment, I think my redesigns will be in good heart then.

[Valikdu]

The Leman Russ is the result of a tank being designed by toy designing people who wanted it to look "brutal and awesome and gothic", so they took two cool-looking tanks (the British Mk.x series and the French B1bis) and mashed them together.
Of course, since it was a WWI tank and an interwar tank, the result is anything but effecient.

You know what's even more ineffecient?

[Cptadder]

The Scorpion at least makes sense in an air-dropped light recon vehicle. The extra tall turret means it can take cover behind hills and expose only the gun to the enemy and the ultra-light armor lets you air drop it. At least it would if that's how it was used in game. It's not used as a mobile fire platform but treated as a full up tank and trust me again any modern tank would kick it's ass.

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