Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

[O. Hinds]

Probably, yeah.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Interestingly enough,

It would probably make it so that it would be far easier for the NCR to (credibly) replicate to an attack with the overwhelming power of a full-scale megaspell attack than it would be to deploy "theater" tactical megaspell/balefire bombs for a limited strike.

So that would provoke kind of wide gap in capabilities between its conventional and strategic forces.


Some could argue that it wouldn't be a bad thing, as the threshold to launch a full-scale megaspell attack could be quite low; but the reverse is also true and this could also lead to the NCR being vulnerable to attacks sufficient enough to overwhelm its conventional forces while not important enough that it would leave the people in charge of the NCR's defense policies hesitant to launch a new Holocaust (hypothetical example: the Alliance seizing Fillydelphia and holding the place against anything the NCR could try to throw at it, but stopping there and not going further - it could be argued that the NCR's vital interests are not being threatened, and peace could still be easily achievable, if a costly one for the NCR).

So there would still be pressure on the NCR to fill its capability gap on the side of conventional forces, to avoid having to resort to the Strategic Forces.

[O. Hinds]

Good point.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Point shamelessly ripped-off from Real Life, as it's a recurring debate debate in the defense circles when it comes to France's defense policies, given we are continually cutting down on our conventional forces for budgetary reasons.

The parallel here is that the NCR has only limited resources, and conventional forces are very costly to maintain.

The obvious answer would be for the NCR to have a multi-tiered Army:

- The hard core of Special Forces, always available and able to react quickly to get in the breach if there were to be a crisis requiring an immediate reaction & application of force.
- The professional part of the Army, competently trained and here to be mobilized for example if there were to be a band of raiders attacking the frontiers of the NCR.
- The conscripts, used to guard towns, and only mobilized for actual combat operations in case of War.

With, of course, the best hardware being issued to the Special Forces and going down from there. So most likely by 30 SR, the individual equipment would probably go something like:

- Special Forces: Power Armors & magical energy weapons
- Professional army: Kevlar vests and helmets & modern ballistic weaponry (type M4 / HK416)
- Conscripts: Bare camos with steel helmets & semi-auto battle rifles (type M-14)

Only the SF and the Professional army would have access to vehicles, and it would be rare for the professional army to be aero-mobile while it would be the point itself of the special forces to be able to be deployed everywhere on the Peninsula in the shortest amount of time possible.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Oh and I guess the conscripts would get to keep their rifles and uniforms after the end of their service, so that in case of general mobilization they could quickly be brought up to an acceptable level of combat readiness? And also as a sort of 'thank you' gift?

[O. Hinds]

That all sounds good. What do the soldiers of the professional army do when not mobilized, though?

As a related side note, I'm rethinking my previous idea that that Alliance doesn't really have air-mobile armor. Sure, they wouldn't if they only had Earthly stuff to work with: their tanks, self-propelled guns, etc. would just be too heavy to be at all easily moved by air. It's quite probable, though, that they've used alchemically engineered lighter but just as strong materials. I'm not sure if the Alliance has planes big enough to fit their standard armor, but this would at least allow armor to be carried under rotodaens acting as skycranes.

[Harmony Ltd.]

The M777 howitzer, M551 Sheridan light tank and the BTR-D armored personal carrier are examples of what the Alliance could work with in order to have air-mobile heavy firepower & armor.

As for what the soldiers of the professional army do when not mobilized, well, they train themselves, and train the conscripts. And the Special Forces, in return, train the professional army. As a rule of thumb, when soldiers don't fight they prepare themselves to fight, train themselves or prepare themselves for training.

As it is costly to have professional soldiers that do nothing but being soldiers, they are only a limited number (I doubt there's more than a few thousands of them), their exact numbers depending on a number of parameters, mostly:

- How menaced the NCR feel
- How much it's ready to spend to feel a bit more secure
- How many people it can get for what it's ready to spend

Usually, the ratio would be something along the lines of:

1 Special Force for 15 professionals for 50 conscripts.

If we remember that there's around 450,000 people in the NCR in 30 SR and if we imagine that 4% are serving at any given time (which is quite high by modern world real life standards, for a country at peace: the USA have only 0.5% of their population in uniform), this makes 18,000 people in uniform; of which under 14,000 would be conscripts, around 4000 would be professionals, and just under 300 would be special forces.

The absolute number of conscripts may be higher, depending on the population pyramid at the time, but the other two numbers seems about right I'd say.

Of course they would get laminated by the Alliance in a straight-up fight, but anything under that could probably be crushed just by these numbers - though with some losses.

[Harmony Ltd.]

NCR Special Force Command:

Commanded by a three-star General.
6 Units of 50 commandos, each ones with their specialty.
Each units are commanded by a Colonel, and cut in several teams (typically 5 teams of 10) led by a Captain each.
Due to the training they have to endure, their responsibilities (they may have to command non-SF units on the field), and the pay they receive as a consequence, all commandos are at least Lieutenants.


NCR Army:

Commanded by a three-star General.
8 Battalions of 500 personnel each, 1 Garnison Battalion for each of the 7 states (Manehatten, Junction, New & Old Appleloosa, Maripony, Glyphmark and Everfree) and 1 on permanent alert, regularly being trained by the Special Forces to fight alongside them if necessary.
The Everfree Battalion is actually based near Ponyville, at the frontier between the state of Everfree and the Hellhound Reservation, with only a fraction of its numbers guarding the settlement of Cathedral. Everfree itself is used as a training ground for troops which may have to face hostile environments.
Battalions are led by Colonels, and cut in companies of 100, led by Captains.
Roughly two third of the professional army end up being composed of officers of NCOs, the rest being corporals and corporal-chiefs without enough time of service yet to be NCOs.


NCR Conscript Corp:

Commanded by a three-star General for the Corp, and by two-star generals for the garnisons of each States (and one for Fillydelphia).
It's where it becomes complicated.
Normally it should be structured on the same pattern as the professional army (battalions of 500), but as the numbers of conscripts have a tendency to vary from one year to another, some battalions may have only 350 people while other may have over 600. And there's conscripts dispatched in almost every towns of the NCR.
Only the cadres of professionals are Officers and NCOs. Conscripts are and stay Ranks unless they decide to become Professionals.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Precision, for the grades...

From lowliest to highest:

Rank
2nd class
1st class
Corporal
Corporal-chief
NCO
Sergeant
Sergeant-chief
Major
Officer
Junior Lieutenant (only during training and the first months after)
Lieutenant
Captain
Lieutenant-colonel
Colonel
2-star General (the "young" generals are assigned to the Conscripts)
3-star General
4-star General (Marshal of the NCR's Armed Forces)

[O. Hinds]

The M777 howitzer, M551 Sheridan light tank and the BTR-D armored personal carrier are examples of what the Alliance could work with in order to have air-mobile heavy firepower & armor.

Oh, sure, they could make air-mobile armor (and they do indeed make air-mobile self-propelled guns), but they made the choice to focus on developing armor standardized as much as possible on the Miliozi tank design (which is based on the Merkava). Any prospective opponent they expected to be able to drive to (threats against Masozi on the Peninsula or similar threats against Alliance bases), have time to ship armor to by sea or rail (petty warlords opposing Alliance recolonization of Zebrica), or not be able to effectively use armor against anyway (the GPE; even if the vehicles were fitted with cloud-riding tracks, it would be very easy for Enclave troops to cut through the cloud in front of or even under the vehicles). Events with the NCR might possible change that design philosophy, but a: the NCR's conventional forces are not currently a threat to the Alliance and the NCR isn't stupid enough to launch an attack with them and b: Alliance armor can still drive most places on the peninsula anyway.

As for what the soldiers of the professional army do when not mobilized, well, they train themselves, and train the conscripts. And the Special Forces, in return, train the professional army. As a rule of thumb, when soldiers don't fight they prepare themselves to fight, train themselves or prepare themselves for training.

Ah, thanks; I'd misunderstood and thought that it was only the special forces that were full time.

Of course they would get laminated by the Alliance in a straight-up fight, but anything under that could probably be crushed just by these numbers - though with some losses.

Right. The conventional forces are to fight warlords, pacify territory, etc.; against those, they ought to be a terror, an unstoppable force that can only be pled with or run from. 18000 mostly-conscript soldiers against an army easily ten times the size, trained pretty much from birth to fight, and possessed of both technological and industrial superiority? Slightly different matter and a wonderful justification for the NCR to have a megaspell deterrent.


You numbers and ranks look good. I'm afraid that I don't have anything like that for the Alliance.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Of course they would get laminated by the Alliance in a straight-up fight, but anything under that could probably be crushed just by these numbers - though with some losses.

Right.  The conventional forces are to fight warlords, pacify territory, etc.; against those, they ought to be a terror, an unstoppable force that can only be pled with or run from.  18000 mostly-conscript soldiers against an army easily ten times the size, trained pretty much from birth to fight, and possessed of both technological and industrial superiority?  Slightly different matter and a wonderful justification for the NCR to have a megaspell deterrent.

And also a golden argument against those in the NCR who would oppose this deterrent:

"Yes, we are currently at peace with the Alliance. We have no reason to expect war with them at this time. However, for two hundred years, we neither did have to worry about a war with the Grand Pegasus Enclave. Yet, only a few decades ago, if it hadn't been for those weapons you so decry, there would not remain any life on the surface of the Equestrian Peninsula to oppose the Old Enclave's dark schemes. And it is also such weapons which have stopped the Goddess' plans to turn the Wasteland in a living hell for those who would have refused to follow the path she tried to impose on us.
We can hope and will work in order for our relationship with the Alliance to stay peaceful and mutually beneficial as much as we can. However, to disarm ourselves would be to invite, yet again, extinction on our side. We can simply not run such a risk."

[Harmony Ltd.]

Probably not "canon"

unintended consequences:

[O. Hinds]

"We're going to get more funding."
:D

Also, "extinction" may be a bit much, but since when is propaganda 100% accurate?

[Harmony Ltd.]

Happy to see you like it.

Anyway, I'm kind of blocking on the Bitter War timeline. What I did thus far was pretty detailed, and I want to keep some amount of "hard" background, but at the same time I'd like for a chunk of this period to be left vague enough that people could fill some of the gap themselves (I kind of conceive this whole exercise as building the background for a shared universe).

Any suggestions to make?

[Harmony Ltd.]

(I kind of conceive this whole exercise as building the background for a shared universe)

To be more clear:

That if they so pleased people could for example run RPG campaigns in it, or tell stories set in that setting.

[O. Hinds]

Hm… Well, if we stick with the Bitter War ending in 10SR, we've got nine more years to fill. Maybe look at the War on Terror for some inspiration? It's long, but, unless you're actually in the field or a terrorist attack actually happens, it's not really that noticeable (as opposed to, say, the massive homefront of WWII). It's not quite the same, admittedly, but it's the best that I can think of at the moment. Sorry.

[Harmony Ltd.]

I was thinking about maybe shortening the timespan of the Bitter War by two or three years, to around 7-8 years?

I think 7 years of war would be more reasonable. Something like:

- First year: escalation peaking with the Battle of Tenpony
- Second and Third years: Guerilla warfare (start of "Operation Gangrene", concentrating mostly on hitting the NCR's caravans and the weakest settlements and on engaging in acts of terrorism)
- Fourth and Fifth years: years of terror ("Operation Gangrene" reach full steam, as the Bitters engage less and less in conventional attacks and unleash all the horrors at their disposal)
- Sixth year: The Counter-Attack (the NCR manage to eradicate a large portion of the Bitter forces after managing to find crucial intelligence)
- Seventh year: The Silence. No Bitter attacks are noted that year. Its end mark the official end to the Bitter War.

[O. Hinds]

(I kind of conceive this whole exercise as building the background for a shared universe)

To be more clear:

That if they so pleased people could for example run RPG campaigns in it, or tell stories set in that setting.

Right. I view it partly as that and partly as just the joy of worldbuilding.


Speaking of which, I realized last night that, while Rose Eye's opinions of LittlePip have been brought up, I hadn't even thought about what she'd think of Blackjack. While PH isn't over yet, I think that Rose Eye might actually be something of a fan (though still of the belief that Blackjack got very lucky). Blackjack actually struggled and sacrificed to attain her goals, and she never really opposed Red Eye (in that she only interfered with his operations when they were helping her own enemies, as opposed to making a concerted effort against him; the fact that she almost certainly would have made such an effort if she'd managed to get Hoofington cleaned up while he was still undefeated doesn't really matter, since that never happened). Of course, another part of it is that Blackjack never got favored by and then betrayed Red Eye (at least, I'm assuming that that's not going to happen at this point). A lot of the Rose Banner's doctrine is basically part of an idealistic and violent teenager's unhealthily strong infatuation/obsession with a mass-murdering dictator.

Oh, and while I'm at it:
Shayle et al haven't at this point in metatime (ATR is far from finished, after all) done anything to catch Rose Eye's notice.
Rose Eye is grateful to Murky for the help he gave various Fillydelphia foals. As MN7 is also unfinished, though, and is tied so closely to Red Eye and Fillydelphia, this might change over metatime. (Oh, and semi-related is that Rose Eye is, very grudgingly, grateful to LittlePip for not attacking the Fillydelphia foals when she had the chance.)

[O. Hinds]

I was thinking about maybe shortening the timespan of the Bitter War by two or three years, to around 7-8 years?

I think 7 years of war would be more reasonable. Something like:

- First year: escalation peaking with the Battle of Tenpony
- Second and Third years: Guerilla warfare (start of "Operation Gangrene", concentrating mostly on hitting the NCR's caravans and the weakest settlements and on engaging in acts of terrorism)
- Fourth and Fifth years: years of terror ("Operation Gangrene" reach full steam, as the Bitters engage less and less in conventional attacks and unleash all the horrors at their disposal)
- Sixth year: The Counter-Attack (the NCR manage to eradicate a large portion of the Bitter forces after managing to find crucial intelligence)
- Seventh year: The Silence. No Bitter attacks are noted that year. Its end mark the official end to the Bitter War.

That sounds good. That would also give a three or four-year gap between the end of the war and the NCR letting the Alliance in (if we keep that at the same time; I'm open to better ideas), which kind of makes sense; they want to get their house in order before inviting guests, particularly if said guests would be eager to "help them clean up".

[Harmony Ltd.]

That said, what happened during the height of Operation Gangrene might still have impacts "today" in the NCR.

Like for example a genetically engineered race of insects that attack crops and/or people and constantly keep reproducing, needing a constant effort of eradication;

Or a virus which doesn't kill the people hit by it, but is extremely contagious and weaken them a lot;

Or a parasite which get in people's brains and provoke funky & somewhat random effects on them as they slowly eat it (like turning off the pain receptors or at the reverse cranking them up, acting on a person's senses, heightening their paranoia, etc...)

Or other things like that?

[O. Hinds]

Yeesh, sounds nasty. That's the idea, though. This will also mean much tighter border controls with the Alliance.

[Harmony Ltd.]

And now I've got an interesting conspiracy-fuel idea...

paranoia fuel:

Of course this is probably not canon.

Probably.

[Harmony Ltd.]

That said, what happened during the height of Operation Gangrene might still have impacts "today" in the NCR.

Like for example a genetically engineered race of insects that attack crops and/or people and constantly keep reproducing, needing a constant effort of eradication;

Or a virus which doesn't kill the people hit by it, but is extremely contagious and weaken them a lot;

Or a parasite which get in people's brains and provoke funky & somewhat random effects on them as they slowly eat it (like turning off the pain receptors or at the reverse cranking them up, acting on a person's senses, heightening their paranoia, etc...)

Or other things like that?

This makes me think this would give a new importance to Glyphmark as the Medical Science heart of the NCR, and as a consequence renew the importance of the NCR's operations in the Everfree to gather the various reagents necessary to its healthcare industry. And in parallel push the efforts to synthesize the most critical of these reagents.

... Now I'm thinking about the equivalent of a P4 laboratory sitting next to the ruins of Old Canterlot.

[Harmony Ltd.]

And a nascent web of zebra & ghoul held Pharma corporations, making room for some possibly interesting intrigues...


[urge to add cyberpunk corporate elements to the setting intensify]

[Harmony Ltd.]

Would it be Elusive's style to, if he found a suitable spot in the Marediterranean, establish another city on an island ?

illustration:

For the tourists: "Like Manehatten, but not in ruin and in the middle of the sea!"

[Harmony Ltd.]

Huh. I just thought about something pretty important.

As the Gardens of Equestria removed all traces of Taint/Flux from the environment,

it now impossible to produce Hydra.

So for as long as a replacement will not be found, the only possibility for people to gain back lost limbs will be either powerful magic or cyber-replacements; both most likely reserved to the favored classes of the NCR if only for logistical reasons.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Also,

NCR ID cards, if they exist (which they probably do), would probably look something like this:

face photograph, photograph of the cutie-mark or equivalent for zebra, or other distinctive signs if applicable for other species

Name

Race
(Mane/head feathers color
Coat/body color
Eye color
Summary description of the cutie mark or zebra equivalent) these fields filled if applicable
Date & place of birth (SR calendar)

Place of Residence

[Harmony Ltd.]

Example:

Mezzo “Jam” Melody

Race: Earth pony
Mane: Blonde
Coat: Light brown
Eyes: Apple green
Cutie Mark: one (1) saxophone
Date of birth: _/_/-15 (<= most people born during the Wasteland don't know their date of birth apart from the year)
Place of birth: Old Riverside, Manehatten

Place of residence: Downtown Manehatten, Manehatten

And also a Citizen ID number, a unique ID to identify the citizen in the NCR's databases.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Preview of a Work In Progress:

Spoiler:

Hafta think a bit about how to write the news bulletin and to put in it, but I have some ideas. They'll just to wait until after I get dinner myself.

[O. Hinds]

And now I've got an interesting conspiracy-fuel idea...

paranoia fuel:

Of course this is probably not canon.

Probably.

Hm.  It's a good enough conspiracy theory until the last line, but the Bitters obviously haven't won: there's still intelligent life on the surface.

And a nascent web of zebra & ghoul held Pharma corporations, making room for some possibly interesting intrigues...


[urge to add cyberpunk corporate elements to the setting intensify]

:D

Would it be Elusive's style to, if he found a suitable spot in the Marediterranean, establish another city on an island ?

illustration:

For the tourists: "Like Manehatten, but not in ruin and in the middle of the sea!"

Well, a new city like that would be quite expensive; there'd have to be some big advantage to building a new city instead of expanding an existing one.

Huh. I just thought about something pretty important.

As the Gardens of Equestria removed all traces of Taint/Flux from the environment,

it now impossible to produce Hydra.

So for as long as a replacement will not be found, the only possibility for people to gain back lost limbs will be either powerful magic or cyber-replacements; both most likely reserved to the favored classes of the NCR if only for logistical reasons.

Good point.  And while the Alliance has better (or at least more) cybernetics and is happy to provide such medical aid to NCR citizens… if you were one of the NCR's upper-level decision makers, would you trust a robot limb made by an AI famous for spreading himself to every computer system he can reach, given that said AI is one of your biggest diplomatic opponents?

Also,

NCR ID cards, if they exist (which they probably do), would probably look something like this:

face photograph, photograph of the cutie-mark or equivalent for zebra, or other distinctive signs if applicable for other species

Name

Race
(Mane/head feathers color
Coat/body color
Eye color
Summary description of the cutie mark or zebra equivalent) these fields filled if applicable
Date & place of birth (SR calendar)

Place of Residence

Sounds good.  What are the cards made of, and do they incorporate any computer-read information (magstrips and the like)?

Preview of a Work In Progress:

Spoiler:

Hafta think a bit about how to write the news bulletin and to put in it, but I have some ideas. They'll just to wait until after I get dinner myself.

Very nice!  Some of the wording was a bit awkward, but, as you said, it's a work in progress.
The thing about overproduced Alliance music probably makes sense, particularly if Elusive is making much of it all by himself to flood the market.

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