Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

[Stringtheory]

And Angel is proof that even the rabbits have some degree of intelligence.

Well, any pet that gets a decent degree of screen time (save for Winona and maybe Gummy) seems to be at a Lassie-level of development. They may not be as intelligent as other animals, but in a world where there are so many clearly sentient species you have to wonder where exactly to draw the line for things like domestication and farming.

This seems like something that would be a standard in this sort of fantasy settings. An attempt at a standardized test. Pass it, and your species is clearly capable of producing animals intelligent enough to be considered equals, or at least close enough to equals to not be eaten.

Perhaps the old monkey test would work? There's food hanging from the ceiling and the only way to get it is to move the box in the corner under it and if you can do that you're smart enough.

[O. Hinds]

From the MN7 thread:

Spoiler:

So my thought was that maybe, whatever Red Eye was doing, Rose Eye might use that sort of propaganda both to increase her hold over the foals and sour their opinion of the NCR.  "The NCR is telling your surviving parents to stay away from the Banner, when all they have to do to be with you again is come down here and join us!"
Though, on the other hand, I wonder if we would see freed parent slaves leaving the NCR and joining the Banner to be with their foals.  Interesting idea.
(Oh, and Rose Eye isn't too worried about the parents corrupting the foals.  After all, if they try, clearly they're actually NCR agents willing to sacrifice their foals' welfare for their twisted political goals...)

[O. Hinds]

Hm. Harmony (and yes, I know that you probably won't be back here for a while, but I assume that you'll read the headcanon thread backlog when you return), you mentioned something about the NCR sending aid to the Enclave Remnants? I may have had this idea before (and I apologize if I have), but I've thought of another reason for them to do it. Many pegasi will probably find the Remnants the most comfortable place for them; it's the lifestyle the know, after all. The problem is, the Remnants aren't terribly wealthy; on their own, there's only so much they can support. This is motivation for pegasi to leave the Remnants, which is a problem for the NCR. After all, where will those pegasi go? The ones who want to strike out fully on their own (or have found out about the Philomenans and want to make the long journey to join them) have probably already done so, so the remainder will emigrate. Excepting whatever happens to Hoofington after PH (I don't know enough to say how pegasi will do there and couldn't tell you if I did), where can they go? Some might go to places like the Moojave Union, if it eventually forms, but the two richest and most powerful states in the region and the world are the NCR and the Alliance… and pegasi are probably far more likely to emigrate to the Alliance than the NCR. The populace of the NCR went through the Bitter War, Operation Cauterize, and two hundred years of stifling cloud cover, after all. Some pegasi will go to prove them wrong, or because they want to make up for the past, or just because they believe in the NCR, but many others will be put off by the adversity. The Alliance? There's basically no anti-pegasus sentiment at all. The Alliance will pay pegasi just for being pegasi and having pegasus children. Farmers on the frontier will buy free drinks for weather workers who save from drought or storm farmland that hasn't seen managed weather since the crops grown on it evolved. Las Pegasus is a thriving city-state as independent as any other minor Alliance power, boasting of having the best of the GPE and more and becoming a vacation destination for non-pegasi Alliance citizens. The Alliance, partly deliberately and partly just due to circumstances, is very attractive to pegasi, and of course the NCR can't do anything about that openly. But if the NCR should, out of the goodness of its heart, help the Remnants support a larger population, and maybe encourage anypony who wants to leave the Remnants to help out their benefactors… well, who can (openly) fault them for that?

Well, Rose Eye, but there's a nonzero chance that she'd contest the NCR on the color of the sky. Which actually brings to mind another thing I thought of: even as the "reformed" (read: completely and openly unrepentant about her past actions but now willing to make the bare minimum of nice with the NCR for the good of her people) Marshal of the Moojave Union (second in command of the military, after the President) or whatever, she's going to be a diplomatic liability who's just too useful to get rid of. I can imagine the NCR ambassador to the Moojave punishing annoying subordinates by having them be the ones to convey messages to the Marshal. :D

[O. Hinds]

I'm changing the name of the PR astronauts from "navipatia" to "navitpatia", by the way. Sorry about the error. "navipatia" is probably "spaceship".

[Meleagridis]

I don’t believe I’ve touched on this yet. Reason being that I, for some reason, thought it was actually canon mentioned in the story. Not the midwife stuff, but the poor birth rate and all that. But nope, I’m pretty sure I made this up in my head. It’s about the Sand Dogs.

When we see Rover, some beautiful detail is spared to express his considerable age. Now considering that he seemed to be an adult at the time of the show (though young adolescence would actually explain a lot about the Diamond Dog’s modus operandi… but I digress) he was probably very old by the time the war rolled around. But I didn’t see it as that, mostly because I forgot. Even barring my memory, though, we know that Rover was involved in very dangerous combat situations earlier in the war, and he could have been cyberized any time in there. If that’s the case, then it is possible he was never as old as he appeared to Blackjack when he first went metal.

What I’m trying to say here is that being cyborged up doesn’t stop aging. It simply slows it. Unnaturally, with potential unpleasant consequences.

In the tunnels we get a glimpse of Fifi, a sand pup. Now I know that Equestria was getting desperate for labour and all, but would they really condone child labour? It is possible that maybe there was just an accident that lead to her augmentation from before the war, but I find it much easier to swallow that the Sand Dogs can still have kids. But the intense wear and tear, the radiation, the enervation, it has all had a serious toll on their ability to reproduce. There will never be another full Diamond Dog, because Sand Dog pups are all born incomplete. They are brought into the world already missing legs or organs or worse. Most do not make it, so population has been limited to the one tribe. Those that do survive owe their lives to the midwives.

I use the word ‘midwife’ because I don’t have a dog pun or a cultural analogy to dig through for a better term. So it’s probably not actually midwife, but that’s what I’ll be calling it here. They have got a miserable, miserable job.

For the sake of brevity and clarity, here is everything contained in the following spoiler:
The midwife’s duty is to tend to a Sand Dog preparing to give birth, physically and spiritually. He keeps her healthy and monitors her progress, and he tallies her wishes, the name she wants for the child, and what she wants for her spoken epitaph. These are treated with the gravity of last requests, and the midwife recognizes that they usually are. At the time of birth the midwife is present to help deliver the baby. Any Sand Dogs with medical know-how are to be present, but usually there are none to few. Their priority is saving the child who typically requires immediate medical attention and sometimes even implants to survive. The mother often does not make it.
After the ordeal is complete, the infant is measured for any needed augmentations and the midwife typically arranges a funeral ceremony. Any who knew the mother (the whole pack, basically) gather somewhere on the surface. The midwife then howls to the moon, singing a specific song that was tailored to the mother, the details of which they try to work out earlier. The midwife is expected to already have a song for every member of the pack, but when a dog’s life is soon to be threatened they will often collaborate and review the song, make it ideal before it must be sang.
The dead are honored first. If it is more than a funeral, the newly living are next to be celebrated. Their names are given, their forebears are listed, and then the whole pack howls simple songs about the child and what the child can expect in life, or what they expect of the child.

Sand dog talks about midwives to a zebra:

[O. Hinds]

Very neat! I like the idea. Some comments:

I wonder what happens if a Sand Dog and hellhound reproduce.

You say that cyberaugmentation was available very early, even before the war? How? I thought that it was available for less than the last eleven years. Please elaborate.

Hm, I wonder, did "Puppy Promise" arise independently, or is it a descendent of the concept of Pinkie Promises picked up from ponies during the war?

Actually, I wonder in general how these traditions have diverged from those of helhounds.

And overall a nice short story.

[Meleagridis]

Very neat!  I like the idea.  Some comments:

I wonder what happens if a Sand Dog and hellhound reproduce.

Somebody finishes a very bad joke!
In all seriousness, it might not work. The hellhounds are indeed very different from Diamond Dogs now. I never followed through on my biology aspirations, so I can't say for sure, but they might follow the 'sterile hybrid' standard. Or nothing would happen. Or, who knows, maybe you'd get the closest thing in the wasteland to a Diamond Dog.
Ignoring all the complications Sand Dogs have around birth, obviously.

You say that cyberaugmentation was available very early, even before the war?  How?  I thought that it was available for less than the last eleven years.  Please elaborate.

derp:

But this begs the question- Sand Dogs were widely augmented before the bombs, yeah? So, when exactly? Was there a program to robocize Sand Dogs before ponies? Honestly, it would make sense to me. Poor sods are already treated worse than the gravel they dug, they were losing limbs fast... they'd make good test runs.
Wait... I feel like this was actually mentioned already. Arg, I need Carto!

Hm, I wonder, did "Puppy Promise" arise independently, or is it a descendent of the concept of Pinkie Promises picked up from ponies during the war?

Actually, I wonder in general how these traditions have diverged from those of helhounds.

Get a pony and a dog in the room, and they'll argue till the cows come home about who did it first.
But I put it together at the last moment because I realised it could exist. I would say it arose independently.

The hellhounds I see as being... different, but similar. PH has, however, already invalidated a few of my thoughts on the matter. I always thought of them as much more antagonistic to Sand Dogs, seeing them as selling out to ponies. While not as hateful towards them as they are towards ponies, it isn't unheard of them to pull off a wandering Sand Dog's metal limbs and leaving them to wriggle to an early grave. And it isn't unheard of them to leave Sand Dogs alone. It's a flip of the coin, so they give hellhounds the same berth as any other wasteland threat.

And overall a nice short story.

  
Been too long since I wrote anything.

[O. Hinds]

Somebody finishes a very bad joke!

:)

In all seriousness, it might not work. The hellhounds are indeed very different from Diamond Dogs now. I never followed through on my biology aspirations, so I can't say for sure, but they might follow the 'sterile hybrid' standard. Or nothing would happen. Or, who knows, maybe you'd get the closest thing in the wasteland to a Diamond Dog.

Aye, hard to know.

Ignoring all the complications Sand Dogs have around birth, obviously.

It would probably easier to use a male Sand Dog and a female hellhound. Hellhounds obvious either don't have that sort of extreme difficulty or have some way of compensating, given how prolific they are.

But this begs the question- Sand Dogs were widely augmented before the bombs, yeah? So, when exactly? Was there a program to robocize Sand Dogs before ponies? Honestly, it would make sense to me. Poor sods are already treated worse than the gravel they dug, they were losing limbs fast... they'd make good test runs.
Wait... I feel like this was actually mentioned already. Arg, I need Carto!

Aye. Three words: expendable test subjects. If they live, hey, it's charity work! If they die, well, who (who counts) cares? More where they came from, and it's not link the mutts have much better to do.
(Race relations in Equestria, particularly near the end, were not exactly what one would call a world benchmark…)

The hellhounds I see as being... different, but similar. PH has, however, already invalidated a few of my thoughts on the matter. I always thought of them as much more antagonistic to Sand Dogs, seeing them as selling out to ponies. While not as hateful towards them as they are towards ponies, it isn't unheard of them to pull off a wandering Sand Dog's metal limbs and leaving them to wriggle to an early grave. And it isn't unheard of them to leave Sand Dogs alone. It's a flip of the coin, so they give hellhounds the same berth as any other wasteland threat.

Well, we know that there are multiple groups of hellhounds; FoE introduces us to two, and I expect that that Hoofington hellhounds are a third group. Just as the different groups have different groups have differing relations with ponies, it's quite possible that they also have differing relations with Sand Dogs. If any, that is, since I imagine that Sand Dogs may not go that far from Hoofington.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Okay, so after having read the latest chapter of PH, I can now confirm that the Bitters will use bioweapons during the Bitter War, once they get arrogant / desperate enough.

Only starting to wonder if they might not even START the war with a bio-attack, trying to wipe away the surface and by the way creating the One Big Scandal that'll cristallize the implosion of the Enclave. I'll have to think about it. I think we'll need to wait until the end of PH to reach a definitive conclusion on that point.

[Harmony Ltd.]

On the timeline leading to tve Enclave's implosion :

As of the latest chapter of PH (62), it seems like the ETA for the Schism to become official might now be under 1.5/2-month post Sunshine and Rainbows, with the troubles and then war in fact starting almost as soon as wind of what happened in Neighvarro (Littlepip) and Thunderhead (Blackjack) reaches the rest of the Enclave, gaining in intensity as all sides get more and more radical.

[O. Hinds]

Harmony, welcome back!

Anyway, yes... And there's some stuff I know that I can't tell you, too. I'm eager to hear your thoughts based on your current information, though (assuming that that second post wasn't them)!

Please also, of course, post your updated Bitter War timeline here once you have it.

Oh, and I don't know how much time you have, but your thoughts on the posts made here in your absence would be valued. I've missed you. :)

[Harmony Ltd.]

I'll post more in-depth posg after the 20 of december. Then I'll be in vacation.

[Harmony Ltd.]

I was juggling with an idea, and I'll leave it here for consideration :

What if, after a while, the NCR and the Enclave Remnants, their common gies having grown through trade, began talks for the Remnants to become, one way or another, integrated with the NCR instead of staying a completely independent entity ?

It probably wouldn't happen too soon after the Bitter War (a question of public opinion), and the NCR would need to have grown enough for the Remnants to see it being in their interest.

Cue political intrigues, between the Pro and Anti, and among the Pro on how exactly to go about it.

And Elusive subtly trying to sabotage these talks (divide and conquer).

[Harmony Ltd.]

Probably less like the Remnants becoming a state of the NCR, and more like a net of treaties and partnerships being woven between the two (not exactly like but somewhat similar to the early stages of the European Union).

[Harmony Ltd.]

So in the end you'd have the pegasi who chose to live on the surface to help it, those who preffered to stay in the skies and continue with their old lifestyle but who have increasingly bilateral mutually beneficial relationships with the surface, and then the Old Guard who just want to set the world on fire.

[O. Hinds]

I'll post more in-depth posg after the 20 of december. Then I'll be in vacation.

No problem.

I was juggling with an idea, and I'll leave it here for consideration :

What if, after a while, the NCR and the Enclave Remnants, their common gies having grown through trade, began talks for the Remnants to become, one way or another, integrated with the NCR instead of staying a completely independent entity ?

It probably wouldn't happen too soon after the Bitter War (a question of public opinion), and the NCR would need to have  grown enough for the Remnants to see it being in their interest.

Cue political intrigues, between the Pro and Anti, and among the Pro on how exactly to go about it.

And Elusive subtly trying to sabotage these talks (divide and conquer).

Gies? Oh, ties?
Anyway, I don't know if this is building on my idea or if we developed the same thing independently, but one of my posts during your absence is relevant to this.  Basically, the Alliance is much more attractive to Remnant emigrants than the NCR; the NCR therefore has a vested interest in reducing the number of Remnants emigrants as much as possible, which, since it can't act directly, it does by sending the Remnants lots and lots of "equinitarian aid".  And yes, I could see them eventually joining through this.

Probably less like the Remnants becoming a state of the NCR, and more like a net of treaties and partnerships being woven between the two (not exactly like but somewhat similar to the early stages of the European Union).

Oh, yes; that would be able to happen much sooner.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Okay, time to get something done...

From the MN7 thread:

Spoiler:

So my thought was that maybe, whatever Red Eye was doing, Rose Eye might use that sort of propaganda both to increase her hold over the foals and sour their opinion of the NCR.  "The NCR is telling your surviving parents to stay away from the Banner, when all they have to do to be with you again is come down here and join us!"
Though, on the other hand, I wonder if we would see freed parent slaves leaving the NCR and joining the Banner to be with their foals.  Interesting idea.
(Oh, and Rose Eye isn't too worried about the parents corrupting the foals.  After all, if they try, clearly they're actually NCR agents willing to sacrifice their foals' welfare for their twisted political goals...)

Interesting idea, yes. It seems the whole shtick of Red Eye and his followers really is to redefine ponyhood, and rebuild society from the ground up to meet the Vision of the Leader.

Hmmm... Now I'm imagining Rose Eye (or her descendants) as a Fascist leader, evolving away from the Raider background as she somehow manage to get her corner of the wasteland to civilize and thrive.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Hm.  Harmony (and yes, I know that you probably won't be back here for a while, but I assume that you'll read the headcanon thread backlog when you return), you mentioned something about the NCR sending aid to the Enclave Remnants?  I may have had this idea before (and I apologize if I have), but I've thought of another reason for them to do it.  Many pegasi will probably find the Remnants the most comfortable place for them; it's the lifestyle the know, after all.  The problem is, the Remnants aren't terribly wealthy; on their own, there's only so much they can support.  This is motivation for pegasi to leave the Remnants, which is a problem for the NCR.  After all, where will those pegasi go?  The ones who want to strike out fully on their own (or have found out about the Philomenans and want to make the long journey to join them) have probably already done so, so the remainder will emigrate.  Excepting whatever happens to Hoofington after PH (I don't know enough to say how pegasi will do there and couldn't tell you if I did), where can they go?  Some might go to places like the Moojave Union, if it eventually forms, but the two richest and most powerful states in the region and the world are the NCR and the Alliance… and pegasi are probably far more likely to emigrate to the Alliance than the NCR.  The populace of the NCR went through the Bitter War, Operation Cauterize, and two hundred years of stifling cloud cover, after all.  Some pegasi will go to prove them wrong, or because they want to make up for the past, or just because they believe in the NCR, but many others will be put off by the adversity.  The Alliance?  There's basically no anti-pegasus sentiment at all.  The Alliance will pay pegasi just for being pegasi and having pegasus children.  Farmers on the frontier will buy free drinks for weather workers who save from drought or storm farmland that hasn't seen managed weather since the crops grown on it evolved.  Las Pegasus is a thriving city-state as independent as any other minor Alliance power, boasting of having the best of the GPE and more and becoming a vacation destination for non-pegasi Alliance citizens.  The Alliance, partly deliberately and partly just due to circumstances, is very attractive to pegasi, and of course the NCR can't do anything about that openly.  But if the NCR should, out of the goodness of its heart, help the Remnants support a larger population, and maybe encourage anypony who wants to leave the Remnants to help out their benefactors… well, who can (openly) fault them for that?

Yeah, as we kind of discussed above, once the dust from the Bitter War started settling, there'd probably be attempts from parts of both sides (NCR and the Enclave Remnants) to establish some kind of mutually beneficial relationship : the hardcore isolationists would have probably gone with the Bitters, and the remaining people with isolationist sentiments in the Remnants would probably be enough of a minority to not hinder much such efforts.

In the big picture, it would mostly be a work of trying to undo 200 years of fear, hatred and mistrust. Not exactly easy, but surprisingly enough, there's a lot trade and cooperationcan accomplish when it is associated with a will to do good. See : the Franco-German relationship post-WW2.

Actually, that could be a good model on which to build the NCR-Enclave Remnants relationship, with the Bitters in the role of the Nazi and the Remnants playing that of Germany. Thoughts ?

Well, Rose Eye, but there's a nonzero chance that she'd contest the NCR on the color of the sky.  Which actually brings to mind another thing I thought of: even as the "reformed" (read: completely and openly unrepentant about her past actions but now willing to make the bare minimum of nice with the NCR for the good of her people) Marshal of the Moojave Union (second in command of the military, after the President) or whatever, she's going to be a diplomatic liability who's just too useful to get rid of.  I can imagine the NCR ambassador to the Moojave punishing annoying subordinates by having them be the ones to convey messages to the Marshal.  :D

Heh. I can kind of imagine, yes.

[Harmony Ltd.]

I'm changing the name of the PR astronauts from "navipatia" to "navitpatia", by the way.  Sorry about the error.  "navipatia" is probably "spaceship".

'kay. I'll take your word on that one, as I've never been that much good with Latin.

[Harmony Ltd.]

@ Meleagridis, RE Sand Dogs :

I like your idea. I'll just note one thing : If we assume that the infant mortality rate is 25%, and also a 25% mortality rate for the mother during childbirth (which seems to be on the optimistic side of things from your description)...

... Well, it comes that it's REALLY hard for Sand Dogs to renew their numbers.

Am I right in assuming this means their whole culture would have become extremely risk-averse as a result, doing all they can to minimize their losses ?

If so, I could see why they would be extremely wary of strangers, and more generally of everything they could see as menacing. Or their culture evolving to become quite paranoid ; see: Blackjack's first encounter with the Sand Dogs, and how it's only Rover's wisdom/experience that allowed them to open trade with the surface and gave them a chance to break their isolation.

[Harmony Ltd.]

A tentative revision of the Bitter War Timeline :


- A few days before SR : Neighvarro attack Thunderhead
- SR : The Day of Sunshine and Rainbows. Neighvarro get its collective asses handed to itself by a ragtag band of Wastelanders. Also, Fillydelphia falls into chaos as its streets erupt in a clusterfuck of a free for all, between Red Eye's forces, the Rangers (who also fight each other), the Enclave, and the slaves trying to get the fuck out of dodge.
- In the weeks following SR : tensions rises inside the Enclave, between the partisans of Operation Cauterize, those who are scandalized that the Enclave attacked one of its own settlements, the settlements who are starting to ask for more autonomy from Neighvarro (seeing it weakened after the defeat of the Battle of Neighvarro), those who want for Operation Cauterize to cease (some seeing it as a useless waste of Pegasi lives, other because they see it as a genocide), etc...
- 6 weeks post-SR : The internal tensions to the Enclave dramatically escalate as almost all the members of the Council get killed in an explosion, an unidentified terrorist having managed to plant a bomb in the building. The Enclave effectively beheaded, every factions moves as fast as they can to try to claim leadership. In a few days, the whole Enclave is ablaze.
- 7 weeks post-SR : the schism between the Volunteer, the Isolationists and the partisans of Operation Cauterize is effective. The latter hijack half of the Enclave's fleet, which force the Volunteers to hijack half of the remaining fleet. The Isolationists, needless to say, resent both factions for this.

(to be continued after I get dinner)

[Harmony Ltd.]

- To say that the weeks that followed were chaotic would be the understatement of the century. In the chaos of Operation Cauterize, the Bitters decided to strike hard and decisively. Targeting the biggest and most symbolic settlement they knew of, they launched three quarter of their fleet (7-9 Raptors and one Thunderhead) against Tenpoy Tower, decided to raze it to the ground and to follow from there, purging the Wasteland one settlement at a time. It's only because the Volunteers managed to intercept the Bitters' communications (maybe one of the "Bitters" defected when he/she heard the plan ?) that they got enough advance warning to mobilize the whole of their fleet (5 Raptors) to oppose the Bitters'. With the Volunteers', Lion's and Mouse's help, the Surfacers managed to stop the Bitters' assault right in their track, destroying their fleet, but at an heavy price ; half of the defenders killed and most of the remaining badly battered, and only two of their Raptors remaining afloat, if badly damaged. A battle had been won, but it was only the start of a long and bloody war.
- After their defeat at Tenpony, the Bitters took several month to rest, recover and reorganize their forces, and the newly born New Canterlot Republic took the occasion to do the same, organizing its defenses. The Bitters's leadership, now bitterly aware that a direct confrontation would cost them more than they could expend, decided to resort to other, alternative means. Operation Cauterize was over. It was now time for Operation Gangrene.
- One Year post-SR : on the first anniversary of the Day of Sunshine and Rainbows, several people in Tenpony Tower suddenly start displaying a case of Raider Disease. They are quickly put down by the security services of the Tower before being able to infect anyone else. Their infection is traced back to a box of Cram bought a few days ago from a trader. Other settlements in the Wasteland start exhibiting the same outbursts of Raider Disease, a number of them less lucky than Tenpony was. Panic starts spreading in the Wasteland. Every time the contamination is traced back to food bought from traders several days to several weeks before the start of the epidemic. In order to reduce the risks linked to this menace, the young NCR moves to control more tightly the food supply in the NCR, dispatching guards in the various settlements of the NCR to control the trading flux.

(to be continued)

[O. Hinds]

Interesting idea, yes. It seems the whole shtick of Red Eye and his followers really is to redefine ponyhood, and rebuild society from the ground up to meet the Vision of the Leader.

Hmmm... Now I'm imagining Rose Eye (or her descendants) as a Fascist leader, evolving away from the Raider background as she somehow manage to get her corner of the wasteland to civilize and thrive.

Well, while Rose Eye was born a raider, I'm not sure that it's entirely fair to call the Banner a raider group in the first place (though this also may be debated in-universe); they can be quite brutal, but they don't have the "attack everyone on sight" or "use entrails for decoration" sorts of qualities that generally define raiders.

Anyway, though, pretty much. I've been thinking of it more like Stalinism, but, of course, an argument can be made that Stalinism is just fascism painted red.
I think that I've mentioned this before, but this is also how I explain her not appearing in FoE or MN7. Red Eye was quite aware of her preferred management style, and since purges tend to be expensive, she was, while being relatively high up in the command hierarchy and Red Eye's line of succession, actually given authority over only the Alpha Omega Hotel and its fanatical guards. There is the issue of LittlePip's incursion into the Alpha Omega, but, given how fast LittlePipe was moving, I think it's plausible that Red Rose (her name in Fillydelphia, recall; I can never remember exactly what her raider name was) was still rushing to the scene when the alicorn put LittlePip under. I suspect that the guards who let LittlePip actually reach the children had a very nasty time of it, though, and it's a good thing that LittlePip was unwilling to hurt the foals.

In the big picture, it would mostly be a work of trying to undo 200 years of fear, hatred and mistrust. Not exactly easy, but surprisingly enough, there's a lot trade and cooperationcan accomplish when it is associated with a will to do good. See : the Franco-German relationship post-WW2.

Aye. What the NCR needs to do is do that quickly, though, before too many pegasi realize that the Alliance doesn't have that.

Actually, that could be a good model on which to build the NCR-Enclave Remnants relationship, with the Bitters in the role of the Nazi and the Remnants playing that of Germany. Thoughts ?

Hm… Interesting idea, certainly. Would there be an "We have all been lied to" moment?

'kay. I'll take your word on that one, as I've never been that much good with Latin.

I'm not all that good myself, unfortunately.

@ Meleagridis, RE Sand Dogs :

I like your idea. I'll just note one thing : If we assume that the infant mortality rate is 25%, and also a 25% mortality rate for the mother during childbirth (which seems to be on the optimistic side of things from your description)...

... Well, it comes that it's REALLY hard for Sand Dogs to renew their numbers.

Am I right in assuming this means their whole culture would have become extremely risk-averse as a result, doing all they can to minimize their losses ?

If so, I could see why they would be extremely wary of strangers, and more generally of everything they could see as menacing. Or their culture evolving to become quite paranoid ; see: Blackjack's first encounter with the Sand Dogs, and how it's only Rover's wisdom/experience that allowed them to open trade with the surface and gave them a chance to break their isolation.

Oh, hey, yeah, that makes sense!

- SR : The Day of Sunshine and Rainbows. Neighvarro get its collective asses handed to itself by a ragtag band of Wastelanders. Also, Fillydelphia falls into chaos as its streets erupt in a clusterfuck of a free for all, between Red Eye's forces, the Rangers (who also fight each other), the Enclave, and the slaves trying to get the fuck out of dodge.

And the griffins working for Gawd, don't forget. And I imagine that Red Eye's forces actually start splintering during the battle, once it becomes clear (at least to some forces) that the "grand dream" is dead and that it's everypony for themselves.

- 7 weeks post-SR : the schism between the Volunteer, the Isolationists and the partisans of Operation Cauterize is effective. The latter hijack half of the Enclave's fleet, which force the Volunteers to hijack half of the remaining fleet. The Isolationists, needless to say, resent both factions for this.

Based on what you've posted so far, it's probably around here that the government of Las Pegasus, already having been in tentative secret talks with the Alliance, finally says "Screw it, we're out of here". Any military forces in the city-state are free to either defect or move (quickly) to outside the planned borders of the new Miliozi land, but the Alliance will be making clear that it wants no part in the civil war and that neither side should be wanting that to change.

Tenpoy Tower

Hm, that makes sense. It's hard to choose at this point, since there's no clear "most important" settlement, but Tenpony, among other things, probably has the highest military value.

(to be continued)

It's good so far! I look forward to the rest of it.

[Harmony Ltd.]

In the big picture, it would mostly be a work of trying to undo 200 years of fear, hatred and mistrust. Not exactly easy, but surprisingly enough, there's a lot trade and cooperationcan accomplish when it is associated with a will to do good. See : the Franco-German relationship post-WW2.

Aye.  What the NCR needs to do is do that quickly, though, before too many pegasi realize that the Alliance doesn't have that.

Yes. I'll have to think about it, but it's possible the first talks might have begun even before a year happened after the Day of Sunshine and Rainbows. With the first token of goodwill on the part of the NCR, in asking the Isolationnists to cooperate with the surface against the Bitters, being to give them back one of the Raptors the Volunteers hijacked, and keeping the other one that survived the Battle of Tenpony.

Idea : The NCR Raptor being, in 30 SR, exposed in Manehatten as the Bitter War Memorial.

Actually, that could be a good model on which to build the NCR-Enclave Remnants relationship, with the Bitters in the role of the Nazi and the Remnants playing that of Germany. Thoughts ?

Hm…  Interesting idea, certainly.  Would there be an "We have all been lied to" moment?

Probably not an exact parallel, and probably not a defined moment per se, but yeah, something somewhat similar I guess. "We've been lied to about the Surface, and the Bitters only represented an extreme, that we condemn. We only want to live in Peace and Harmony, like our ancestors did. Let us work together, for the betterment of all."

- SR : The Day of Sunshine and Rainbows. Neighvarro get its collective asses handed to itself by a ragtag band of Wastelanders. Also, Fillydelphia falls into chaos as its streets erupt in a clusterfuck of a free for all, between Red Eye's forces, the Rangers (who also fight each other), the Enclave, and the slaves trying to get the fuck out of dodge.

And the griffins working for Gawd, don't forget.  And I imagine that Red Eye's forces actually start splintering during the battle, once it becomes clear (at least to some forces) that the "grand dream" is dead and that it's everypony for themselves.

Yup. "Clusterfuck of a free for all" seems to be an apt descriptor of the situation in Fillydelphia in the weeks following the day of Sunshine and Rainbows. I'll have to work a timeline of the situation there, and when exactly did the NCR start to move to reclaim the area.

- 7 weeks post-SR : the schism between the Volunteer, the Isolationists and the partisans of Operation Cauterize is effective. The latter hijack half of the Enclave's fleet, which force the Volunteers to hijack half of the remaining fleet. The Isolationists, needless to say, resent both factions for this.

Based on what you've posted so far, it's probably around here that the government of Las Pegasus, already having been in tentative secret talks with the Alliance, finally says "Screw it, we're out of here".  Any military forces in the city-state are free to either defect or move (quickly) to outside the planned borders of the new Miliozi land, but the Alliance will be making clear that it wants no part in the civil war and that neither side should be wanting that to change.

Makes sense, yes. Though it sounds a bit too... clean, I dunno. Though Las Pegasus is a bit out of the way, and the "Enclave" was a busy place at the time, so I can conceive that they managed to get out of it without a scratch. Though I wonder if they might not have been targeted at one moment or another, maybe, by Bitters trying to ressuply on some equipment, like power armors, weapons and the like ?

See what I mean ? It's not because they said they were out of it that could have gotten out of the game. I suppose that's when the Miliozi could have gotten into play, to enforce the independence of Las Pegasus, reinforcing by the way the new ties of Las Pegasus to the Alliance.

Thoughts ?

Tenpoy Tower

Hm, that makes sense.  It's hard to choose at this point, since there's no clear "most important" settlement, but Tenpony, among other things, probably has the highest military value.

I'm wondering whether to have Celestia One be used during the battle or not. Reasons as to why it might not have been used :

- The Bitters manipulating the cloud cover above Manehatten, and Derpy being unavailable (though by this point in time, Littlepip is already in charge of the SPP, so this doesn't seem likely to me)
- Concerns about relying too much on C1, at the risk of damaging it from overuse (this seems like a concern the Twilight Society could have).
- Problems while summoning the megaspell (some of the unicorns used to cast the spell being unavailable for one reason or another, though I'd think the Twilight Society would have enough spare unicorns to avoid such a scenario)
- Other things ?

On the other hand, Celestia One being used might be the reason why the Bitters would have been forced to cease Operation Cauterize and begin Operation Gangrene.

[O. Hinds]

Yes. I'll have to think about it, but it's possible the first talks might have begun even before a year happened after the Day of Sunshine and Rainbows. With the first token of goodwill on the part of the NCR, in asking the Isolationnists to cooperate with the surface against the Bitters, being to give them back one of the Raptors the Volunteers hijacked, and keeping the other one that survived the Battle of Tenpony.

Idea : The NCR Raptor being, in 30 SR, exposed in Manehatten as the Bitter War Memorial.

Nice idea.  I suppose that Manehattan was chosen due to attack on Tenpony that you mentioned earlier?

Yup. "Clusterfuck of a free for all" seems to be an apt descriptor of the situation in Fillydelphia in the weeks following the day of Sunshine and Rainbows. I'll have to work a timeline of the situation there, and when exactly did the NCR start to move to reclaim the area.

Aye.  It also explains why so little of the city was taken intact.

Makes sense, yes. Though it sounds a bit too... clean, I dunno. Though Las Pegasus is a bit out of the way, and the "Enclave" was a busy place at the time, so I can conceive that they managed to get out of it without a scratch. Though I wonder if they might not have been targeted at one moment or another, maybe, by Bitters trying to ressuply on some equipment, like power armors, weapons and the like ?

See what I mean ? It's not because they said they were out of it that could have gotten out of the game. I suppose that's when the Miliozi could have gotten into play, to enforce the independence of Las Pegasus, reinforcing by the way the new ties of Las Pegasus to the Alliance.

Thoughts ?

Oh, I agree that a clean break seems unlikely, and I think that a great deal of in-universe effort would be needed to make a reasonably peaceful one.  The GPE has been the main prospective enemy of the Alliance for some time now, though, so I imagine that there's plenty of preparation for airspace control (missiles, AAA (kinetic and beam), fighter aircraft…).  Once Las Pegasus is surrounded by Miliozi airspace, a raid would be extremely difficult and dangerous (and risk shifting the Alliance from "the war ends at our borders" to "supersonic robot fighters roaming the peninsula and launching tactical balefire missiles at every hostile target they see), and I imagine that any legitimate traffic could just be forced to pass through a ground checkpoint under a band of denied airspace.  While  I'm not saying that the Bitters might not risk it (or even consider trying to pull off a false flag op), but they have other things and safer targets to worry about.  I also doubt that the Alliance would have too much trouble with the raider disease, given the difficulty the Bitters would have accessing Alliance food supplies.

I think that the biggest potential problem area is when the announcement is first made.  Alliance forces, while inbound, won't be in range of the city yet; moreover, it's quite possible that any Bitters in the city will realize that the Alliance opening fire on Bitter positions in the city would not be a good first impression; they'll likely also assume, correctly, that the Alliance loses a lot of ground military strength if the ground in question is cloud.  A lot depends on the proportions of Bitter, Isolationist, and Volunteer forces in the city when the announcement is made, and I'm not sure what that is.  Given the unknowns, the announcement could have resulted in a few dozen ponies grumbling on the way out or in a brutal urban battle that left a third of the city dead.

I'm wondering whether to have Celestia One be used during the battle or not. Reasons as to why it might not have been used :

- The Bitters manipulating the cloud cover above Manehatten, and Derpy being unavailable (though by this point in time, Littlepip is already in charge of the SPP, so this doesn't seem likely to me)
- Concerns about relying too much on C1, at the risk of damaging it from overuse (this seems like a concern the Twilight Society could have).
- Problems while summoning the megaspell (some of the unicorns used to cast the spell being unavailable for one reason or another, though I'd think the Twilight Society would have enough spare unicorns to avoid such a scenario)
- Other things ?

On the other hand, Celestia One being used might be the reason why the Bitters would have been forced to cease Operation Cauterize and begin Operation Gangrene.

Yes, I thought of that.  Have you considered that maybe the Twilight Society had some help in not having enough unicorns?  Or perhaps even that, say, a bomb going off in the C1 chamber (which is, after all, open to the sky; there are probably various protections in place, but they could likely be thwarted) marked the start of the battle?   I know that some hypothetical (in-universe) Alliance military plans involve knocking C1 out through various sneaky means, and, given that the Bitters were in an active hot war rather than a "friendly" economic, diplomatic, and cultural war, I highly doubt that the idea didn't occur to them.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Yes, I thought of that.  Have you considered that maybe the Twilight Society had some help in not having enough unicorns?  Or perhaps even that, say, a bomb going off in the C1 chamber (which is, after all, open to the sky; there are probably various protections in place, but they could likely be thwarted) marked the start of the battle?   I know that some hypothetical (in-universe) Alliance military plans involve knocking C1 out through various sneaky means, and, given that the Bitters were in an active hot war rather than a "friendly" economic, diplomatic, and cultural war, I highly doubt that the idea didn't occur to them.

The thought didn't occur, but only because I had in mind that the Surfacers had gotten just enough advance warning to position their forces around Tenpony almost right before the Bitter's fleet arrived.

It's conceivable a forward attacking force might have tried to attack Celestia One, which would explain why it wouldn't have been preemptively used.

Maybe it was used only toward the end of the battle, after the sky directly above the Tower got secured enough that the Twilight Society got enough confidence to initiate the fire procedure ? Which would explain why half of the defenders died, to secure the Tower against the onslaught of Bitters trying to attack it, while the Volunteer's and Bitter's Fleets where slugging it out and Lion and Mouse where going around doing their business.

By the way, I think this sacrifice on the part of the Volunteers would be the first and most salient point which built goodwill on the part of Surfacers toward accepting them, and helping soothe the aforementioned "200 years of anti-pegasi hatred". Thus later the remaining Raptor being exposed in Manehatten as the "Bitter War Memorial" (though kept ready to be mobilized in time of emergency...), in recognition of the capital role the Volunteers played at the time in saving the Wasteland from the Bitters.

[O. Hinds]

The thought didn't occur, but only because I had in mind that the Surfacers had gotten just enough advance warning to position their forces around Tenpony almost right before the Bitter's fleet arrived.

That's not incompatible with a covert strike against C1, though, if you so desire. As a matter of fact, they sort of fit: if someone suddenly damages or destroys C1, it's a fair bet that that's not all they're planning to do.

It's conceivable a forward attacking force might have tried to attack Celestia One, which would explain why it wouldn't have been preemptively used.

Ah, not what I meant. This would be the work of spies, not soldiers.

Maybe it was used only toward the end of the battle, after the sky directly above the Tower got secured enough that the Twilight Society got enough confidence to initiate the fire procedure ? Which would explain why half of the defenders died, to secure the Tower against the onslaught of Bitters trying to attack it, while the Volunteer's and Bitter's Fleets where slugging it out and Lion and Mouse where going around doing their business.

That could work too, and be compatible with a portion of the caster pool being assassinated just before the battle.

By the way, I think this sacrifice on the part of the Volunteers would be the first and most salient point which built goodwill on the part of Surfacers toward accepting them, and helping soothe the aforementioned "200 years of anti-pegasi hatred". Thus later the remaining Raptor being exposed in Manehatten as the "Bitter War Memorial" (though kept ready to be mobilized in time of emergency...), in recognition of the capital role the Volunteers played at the time in saving the Wasteland from the Bitters.

Aye, that makes sense.

I forgot to mention that taking out C1 was also high on Rose Eye's list of terror attacks agains the NCR. She never, prior to whatever big events happen in the Moojave, felt secure enough in her position to start launching them, but the danger C1 posed would have made it quite an attractive target. The Banner would also have the advantage that they'd see nothing wrong with making it a suicide mission (well, I assume that the Bitters aren't willing to use their own soldiers and civilians like that… or, at least, not this early on).

[Harmony Ltd.]

Unrelated... Remind me, but is Neighvarro the SPP tower that is near Appleloosa, or the one that is north of Shattered Hoof / New Canterlot.


As for the prelude to the Battle of Tenpony, I'll have to think a bit about what fits best, thematically.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Oh, by the way... As of Chapter 62b of PH, there isn't an SPP tower anymore in Hoofington. Which means Littlepip will not be able to influence the climate there.

Something to keep in mind...

[Harmony Ltd.]

By the way, the "Bitter War Memorial" would probably be located next to the ruins of Friendship City.

[Sponsored content]