Re: Conviction Discussion thread

[DoomManta]

Chapter is now up, though you'll probably need to re-read some to refresh your memory. I certainly did.

[Frost]

Spoiler:

[Vinylshadow]

because nice and kindness aren't the same thing

[Frost]

Spoiler:

[Frost]

I apologize; I didn't realize that the presence of a character whom we expected to show up anyway constituted a spoiler

[Vinylshadow]

Character showing up, not surprising.

The manner in which they do and act afterwords though, is something else.

[Frost]

Not this chapter in particular, but it's long been more-or-less figured out that we'd be seeing all of the elements sooner or later

[Frost]

Yeah, that's a pretty fucking retarded way of doing things. The immediate reaction was to assume murder--not, you know, mercenaries running afoul of their trade. Though this sort of "peacekeeping" doesn't surprise me, given the fact that this is a regime that issued a no-quarter order (though we've beaten that horse into the ground at this point)

Given the more paramilitary nature of the Element bearers this time around (Though not enough that they wear uniforms or at least designate their affiliations, making them unlawful combatants--Aaand we're off-track again) I'd doubt Celestia didn't have a hand in it, no matter what Kindness said (and perhaps sincerely thought.

[DoomManta]

By the way, were you as pissed off as I was that the guards stated they might hang the killer or killers of a gang of well armed and armored mercenaries that died at the scene of a clear struggle? It could hardly be more evident that those guys had been hired to kill someone and had gotten killed, themselves, in an act of self defense.
If peacekeeping involves hanging both sides of every fight then this is a heck of a messed up system.

You know, that totally never occurred to me, but now that you mention it, that is pretty suspect. 

Though I disagree with calling the Element bearers paramilitary. Given that Pyra apparently had at least local operational command in Blackrock and that some random Celestian soldier immediately recognised the Element of Loyalty when searching Slight's stuff, it seems to me that "Element Bearer" is functionally a military rank of at least NCO status, probably higher.

[Frost]

I'm sure you don't want me to go into a lengthy rant on the difference between the (Officer) Chain of Command and the (NCO) Support Channel.

If you're going to give them a military rank, you'd want something more like a Warrant Officer. They're the guys that show up and fix everything when you're not looking, and basically no one's allowed to fuck with them. Also, they fly helicopters.

Point being, though, that (though my definition of 'paramilitary' might be off) they're definitely directly involved in the Equestrian military's affairs and have some command authority--and I'm under the impression that Celestia is the Equestrian military's commander-in-chief. An operation to the scale of eliminating all of the Nightkin is something that would have come down straight from her desk.

[DoomManta]

I'm sure you don't want me to go into a lengthy rant on the difference between the (Officer) Chain of Command and the (NCO) Support Channel.

If you're going to give them a military rank, you'd want something more like a Warrant Officer. They're the guys that show up and fix everything when you're not looking, and basically no one's allowed to fuck with them. Also, they fly helicopters.

Point being, though, that (though my definition of 'paramilitary' might be off) they're definitely directly involved in the Equestrian military's affairs and have some command authority--and I'm under the impression that Celestia is the Equestrian military's commander-in-chief. An operation to the scale of eliminating all of the Nightkin is something that would have come down straight from her desk.

Yeah, NCO was a lowball estimate. I'd guess the the Elements are the equivalent to modern day Captains or Majors. 

Although, Sun-Butt may well not really have any idea what exactly went down at Blackrock; her canon solution to problems seems to be basically: Point the Elements at the problem and let them go nuts. So it's possible that she's given them full command and autonomy.

[Frost]

Negligence is hardly a better defense than outright malice when it comes to leadership.

As far as the ranks go, NCO's are a hierarchy sort-of-not-really parallel to officer ranks. The first line supervisors (Team and Squad-level) are Specialists/Corporals/Sergeants and Sergeants/Staff Sergeants, respectively, and, at the platoon level and higher, an element is lead by an officer with a senior NCO in an administrative/logistics position (Platoon Sergeant, and First Sergeant for platoon and company and Sergeant Major for battalion and above) meaning that, realistically, that Battalion Command Sergeant Major probably "outranks" the butter-bar that just got in charge of a platoon, though, on paper, the LT "outranks" him. Captains are either in staff positions or command companies, and Majors are either in staff positions or are Battalion XO's--same thing, really. Either way, Senior NCO rank confers administrative duty and Officer rank confers command duty. The Elements, so far as we've seen, don't seem to take much of an administrative role or a command one (though they have some de facto authority considering their reputation, if their treatment by Celestian soldiers is anything to go by) so they'd fit more squarely into the Warrant Officer ranks, as Warrant Officers have their rank as a matter of skill and expertise rather than command or administration.

[Frost]

She does admit that it was a failing on her part to allow that; a lapse brought on being homesick and war-weary

[Frost]

There's no statute of limitations. You're outright expected, at any point, to stop unlawful actions from happening. 

I'm not excusing the fact that she participated in, or at least condoned, the massacre. I'm just saying that, unlike Loyalty and Honesty, who seemed damn near glad to participate in the slaughter, it's quite telling that she begrudgingly went along with it so the war would end and she could see her family--that's more the reason that people go along with the more bloodthirsty minority of commanders and soldiers, anyway. It's still an inexcusable war crime; I'm just trying to explain the line of reasoning that would lead her to actually do so (from an in- and out-of-universe perspective)

[Frost]

I'm not sure about the friendship thing. A camaraderie, perhaps, but that can be found among soldiers in a warzone with or without magic necklaces. Considering their more militant application and usually dispersed nature, it'd surprise me if there was the closeness we see in the show-era Bearers

[Frost]

Loyalty and Honesty seemed to be a bit more than friends, but Kindness was more remote and seemed a bit disconnected from the others from what we've seen, while Magic (Starswirl) is, by all indications, with Sunbutt in the capital--symbolic, perhaps, of the importance with which the various virtues are regarded in Celestian society.

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