Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Quotidian]

Random thinking here...

I don't know what you're working on (if anything) that brought this question up, but I am suddenly very, very interested.

[FeatherDust]

I want to move Europa to Venus to speed up the latter's rotation, restarting its magnetic field.

Well, see, you might have a problem right there. Venus is less heavy than earth, so despite its higher surface temperature, the core is only barely molten. Even spinning up the planet wouldn't magnetize it because there's no convection currents inside to maintain a field.

[O. Hinds]

I want to move Europa to Venus to speed up the latter's rotation, restarting its magnetic field.  Just bear with me a second.  What was bugging me was 'how' without waving my hand and grandly pronouncing they do.  So here is my thought.  Humans make a ship and go out towards Jupiter.  Likely, the ship is unmanned since humans would go crazy at this stage.  The ship finds a nice 1000m or so asteroid, attaches a thruster, and uses the asteroid's alumium oxide as fuel to push it towards Jupiter.  This becomes our Tug Boat.

Well, aluminium-oxygen rockets work, but you'd need something to split the aluminium oxide on the asteroid and prepare it for use as fuel first. And, unfortunately, the economics of running the Hall-Héroult process alone on a spaceship probably don't work. Maybe several missions to the asteroid could be run beforehand to set things up. You'd probably be better off just using conventional propellant tankage, or using a comet instead of an asteroid and electrolyzing hydrogen for propellant.

Now, once it's in orbit of jupiter, there's the question of where you get the power to move anything since there's no free lunch in space and the energy has to come from somewhere.  So I'm thinking that the magnetic field of Jupiter could be used to power an ion engine.  This is probably the softest part of the idea, but I know the magnetic field of Jupiter is crazy strong so maybe it's a maybe.

Oh, that can work (there was once an experiment with generating power using Earth's much-weaker magnetosphere), but why not just put a reactor on the ship? That would also supply power when outside of the jovian magnetosphere.

The Tug Boat doesn't go straight for Europa though.  It goes to one of the many moons in high orbit and uses the gravity of the asteroid to tug one of jupiter's 2 km moons towards another 2 km moon and make a 4 km moon.  Then tug it towards another moon and make it a 6 km moon.

Ah… now that won't work, sorry. Adding the volumes of two 2km spheres does not, assuming unchanged density, produce a 4km sphere; it produces a sphere about two and a half kilometers in diameter. (volume of a sphere=(4/3)*pi*(r^3) where r is the radius of the sphere)
It would also be difficult to crush rocky moons together like that.

Once you have a nice ball of mass,  the Tug Boat starts orbiting it with a highly eliptical orbit using the Ion Drive to tug it towards one of the middling 20-40 km moons like Sinope or Pasiphae.  Repeat the process of establishing an elipical orbit to tug the larger moon in the direction you want it to go.  Eventually you move in system to Himalia, and finally to Europa itself.  Europa is the smallest and lightest of the big 4, so you use the tug boat and all the mass that it's got moving, to orbit and tug the moon out of Jupiter's orbit and towards venus.

Hm… I'm not 100% certain, but this seems like probably a very inefficient way to do it. Really, a Jupiter-Venus oto transfer like this will, with an ion drive, require over 4*(10^21) kg of propellant anyway… and, actually, if an ion drive is your main propulsion system, well, I don't think that they can use hydrogen propellant, so you couldn't even strip the water off Europa to turn into propellant. And the above figure doesn't take into account the gravitational interactions from moving that significant a moon.

I might be able to justify 100 years for the whole move.

A century? Yeesh. No way you're getting this done using ion drives, I think. You'll need something high-thrust as well as high-ISP… Hm… This would be easier if I knew what sort of tech and financial resources you've available for this project.

Well, see, you might have a problem right there. Venus is less heavy than earth, so despite its higher surface temperature, the core is only barely molten. Even spinning up the planet wouldn't magnetize it because there's no convection currents inside to maintain a field.

And this. Maybe tidal forces would work, but I'm skeptical. Why do you want the magnetic field restarted?

[O. Hinds]

I haven't finished the chapter yet, but this stuff is just really funny to me:

Work in progress Missed Opportunities:

And now, the exciting conclusion of what I think this chapter would be like if Psychoshy were to of been allowed to attend!
(note, not as funny as the former, but a few more scenes to this “what if” as alcohol encourages Psychoshy to resume some bad habits)

Spoiler:

...I swear, I always feel so silly sharing this ridiculous, spontaneous headcanon I form with everything I read XD

:D

[Vergil]

rather hard.  harder rather than soft.  I might be able to justify 100 years for the whole move.

 I don't know where this came from but I suddenly have some really crazy ideas for kerbal space program.

[Kippershy]

Random thinking here... I think there's some scientifically minded folks here and I really don't know where else to put this.

I want to move Europa to Venus to speed up the latter's rotation, restarting its magnetic field.  Just bear with me a second.  What was bugging me was 'how' without waving my hand and grandly pronouncing they do.  So here is my thought.  Humans make a ship and go out towards Jupiter.  Likely, the ship is unmanned since humans would go crazy at this stage.  The ship finds a nice 1000m or so asteroid, attaches a thruster, and uses the asteroid's alumium oxide as fuel to push it towards Jupiter.  This becomes our Tug Boat.

Now, once it's in orbit of jupiter, there's the question of where you get the power to move anything since there's no free lunch in space and the energy has to come from somewhere.  So I'm thinking that the magnetic field of Jupiter could be used to power an ion engine.  This is probably the softest part of the idea, but I know the magnetic field of Jupiter is crazy strong so maybe it's a maybe.  The Tug Boat doesn't go straight for Europa though.  It goes to one of the many moons in high orbit and uses the gravity of the asteroid to tug one of jupiter's 2 km moons towards another 2 km moon and make a 4 km moon.  Then tug it towards another moon and make it a 6 km moon. 

Once you have a nice ball of mass,  the Tug Boat starts orbiting it with a highly eliptical orbit using the Ion Drive to tug it towards one of the middling 20-40 km moons like Sinope or Pasiphae.  Repeat the process of establishing an elipical orbit to tug the larger moon in the direction you want it to go.  Eventually you move in system to Himalia, and finally to Europa itself.  Europa is the smallest and lightest of the big 4, so you use the tug boat and all the mass that it's got moving, to orbit and tug the moon out of Jupiter's orbit and towards venus.

It would be sort of like a juggler juggling jugglers juggling jugglers. 

When the moon reaches Venus, to park it, the tug boat, once again using reaction mass, slams its load into Europa to slow it down and park it in a fast, near orbit of Venus.  The idea is for the moon to accelerate Venus' rotation.  To assist in this, any moons not needed to slow Europa or are not needed for metal resources, are placed on orbits to accelerate them and slam into venus with all the velocity we can muster.  Scientists get to study Europa's oceans.  Venus has a supply of water in orbit to assist with terraforming Venus.

So, thoughts, or am I simply mad?

Trouble is, are you aware just how weak ion drives are currently?
They have a whopping 3 grams of thrust or something like that, if I remember correctly.
Granted, I may be wrong. I may be thinking of something entirely different. Still, if I remember the breakthrough properly, we did develop ion drives or some similar previously questioned drive (in terms of ability to be made real) and so far, our ion drives are worthless in practical terms.
However, they ARE expecting breakthroughs in the near future but even still, ion drives would never be powerful enough for what you're after.
You'd need MIRV engines or perhaps (much more likely) the atomic blast engine to pull something like that off.

[Somber]

Alright Hinds, if you know a better way to relocate Europa to Venus, let me hear it.  ::Grins::

[Kippershy]

Somber, did I scare you from the thread a moment ago?
If so, go back for just a moment. Some anon wants you to read something but they're sure what I did scared you off.

Edit: Thank you.

[O. Hinds]

so far, our ion drives are worthless in practical terms.

Oh, no, ion drives are perfect for some applications. This just happens to not be one of them.

You'd need MIRV engines or perhaps (much more likely) the atomic blast engine to pull something like that off.

…Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

Alright Hinds, if you know a better way to relocate Europa to Venus, let me hear it.  ::Grins::

Well, firstly, like I said, I'd try and see if there was some easier way to accomplish my goals. Of the three you've stated, studying Europa and supplying Venus with water can both be accomplished in much easier ways, while restarting the venusian magnetic field seems unlikely to be done by moving Europa into orbit anyway.

If you still need it done, though… since you've not replied to my question about cost or tech level, I'll assume "more or less present technology, but money no object". I'll also assume that you want Europa delivered more or less intact, so no using its ocean as remass (I'll assume that the oceans can be used as a heat dump, though, which simplifies the move at a cost of reducing their scientific value, but hopefully that's an acceptable exchange for you). Now, a low-thrust engine could do it eventually, but you want it done in a century or less. Since money is no object, I'll say that we can use as many engines as will fit on the moon (which might result in shifting the spherical ice shell, actually, unless the engines were mounted on towers built up from the rocky surface) and that the engines can be supplied with sufficient fuel and propellant by a neverending stream of tankers. Since our mass ratio is thus rendered effectively infinity, our only remaining concern is thrust. I'd say… Orion drives, big ones and lots of them. I'm not sure how to even do all the calculations, but I think that that would work. It would be mind-bogglingly expensive, though.

[O. Hinds]

Actually, we'd have to build the engines on towers extending up through the water and ice; otherwise trying to rotate the moon would just rotate the ice.
This whole thing is ridiculous. :D And you're probably going to end up with a colony on Europa by the end of it, now that I think of it...

[Kippershy]

so far, our ion drives are worthless in practical terms.

Oh, no, ion drives are perfect for some applications.  This just happens to not be one of them.

You'd need MIRV engines or perhaps (much more likely) the atomic blast engine to pull something like that off.

…Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

Okay, okay. My bad. ion engines are good for satellites and that's about it. Something small, lightweight, not needing much thrust but where ISP is essential. With a very, very small amount of xenon gas you can keep an ion engine going for years, or even decades if it's simply holding an orbit with small adjustments every few months, lets say.
For conventional craft, it's use is... nothing.

As for a MIRV, that's me being absolutely exhausted and worn out by the heat, my brain not working. What I meant to say is an atomic motors using hydrogen(?) as the propellant in a fusion reactor, if I'm not mistaken. Highly efficient compared to the standard liquid fuel and especially so against solid fuel rockets.


As for that last thing... this: The very real design of the "Orion nuclear pulse engine"

[O. Hinds]

Okay, okay. My bad. ion engines are good for satellites and that's about it. Something small, lightweight, not needing much thrust but where ISP is essential. With a very, very small amount of xenon gas you can keep an ion engine going for years, or even decades if it's simply holding an orbit with small adjustments every few months, lets say.
For conventional craft, it's use is... nothing.

It's also useful for non-hurried probes, but yeah; for anything requiring reasonable-length burns and having enough mass to need more-than-miniscule thrust to make them, ion drives aren't the best choice.

As for a MIRV, that's me being absolutely exhausted and worn out by the heat, my brain not working. What I meant to say is an atomic motors using hydrogen(?) as the propellant in a fusion reactor, if I'm not mistaken. Highly efficient compared to the standard liquid fuel and especially so against solid fuel rockets.

Oh, some variety of fusion drive?

As for that last thing... this: The very real design of the "Orion nuclear pulse engine"

Which is what I've suggested above. :)

[Kippershy]

Forgive me, I'm so tired I've barely been reading.

[O. Hinds]

Forgive me, I'm so tired I've barely been reading.

It's fine.

[Quotidian]

Horizons almost took a sharp left turn at 34. Almost. It very nearly got passed to Scotch Tape to finish the quest a year later.

Wow. Anyone remember my prediction after Blackjack's death that Somber was gonna go the way of Desert Punk and have the kid take over?
I was nearly right! :P

Hmm. I remember back when 33 came out, I was absolutely convinced that BJ was going to be killed off for realz. Of course, I thought P-21 was going to take over the narration, but Scotch makes more sense. She's the only other one to have seen the Dealer, right?

[Guest]

Psychoshy has as well.

[Derpmind]

Horizons almost took a sharp left turn at 34. Almost. It very nearly got passed to Scotch Tape to finish the quest a year later.

May someone please tell me where this is from, and did Somber say anything else of interest?

[Meleagridis]

Deus has twin cannons on his turret.

Oh. Thanks.

There is some small clarification on the last chapter that I would desperately like to know:
Windclop gets shifty when BJ brings up Boing. Is that just because it's an uncomfortable topic, or is there something (specifically, is there something about Boing) that he's hiding? I fully realise I'm probably looking at this a little too intensely, but his shiftiness reaches its peak right after he makes a vague description of Boing's condition.

Now you've gotten me curious about that, too.

I sure hope so. I really want to know for sure! So now that we've got your editor powers on board, we're another step closer. But we're not there yet. (Begin Music) We'll need a cleaner. Someone who's not afraid to get his hands dirty, someone there for a cut of the action instead of a cut of the pay. A sharp lookout can help keep the heat off our backs. We won't get far at all without a doorman, someone who can open sealed pathways with a subtle application of explosive persuasion, and it won't matter how far we get if there's no getaway driver. A lockpick that can disassemble anything, and I mean anything, into its component parts at the drop of a hat. And if worse comes to worst, when our backs are right up against the wall... we can always call in the professional. As for me...


Somber's secrets... here we come.

...I swear, I always feel so silly sharing this ridiculous, spontaneous headcanon I form with everything I read XD

I suddenly empathize.

[Quotidian]

...and it won't matter how far we get if there's no getaway driver....

I get the feeling this will end horribly.
...
Ah, screw it, let's rock and roll!
*peels out of his driveway with Bad Moon Rising blaring from the speakers*

[Derpmind]

The 4chan thread, and yeah.

How to find the 4chan thread: a swicked guide.

Last time I looked at that thread, I got angry. Most of the people talking about the recent PH chapter at the time were using logic and reason the way a monkey uses sticks and stones. But that's no excuse for me getting angry. When I get angry, I become all of my various stupid simultaneously. So I made that ultra-stupid post earlier, and luckily y'all convinced me not to repost it on 4chan. That really wouldn't have gone well. Anyways, I basically have no desire to go back there, ever. I know some here follow that thread, but if it's 1/10 of the stupidity I saw normally, then I can't read it.

Skyscrapper post.

@Stygius: He was certainly a fun character, but he was certainly lacking defining traits. He's a batpony, yes, and there were lots of cool stuff about batponies that he had going for him, but none of the side-characters we meet are just 'X archetype'. What really makes him separate from the rest of his kind?

This is just my terrible idea, but maybe make it so BJ views Stygius through 'OMG Batpony!' glasses early on, and then put the more extensive characterization later?
 
@Psychoshy: I kinda wish she got in an adventuring party like Xanthe + Co. did. And that's basically it, short of having her stay with the party which probably wouldn't have worked out because reasons I don't remember right now.

@Lacunae: Psalm has always kinda been a wallflower. She's more of a plot-point than a character. /sarcasm

@Scotch + Boo: Usually, characters like these two would be downgraded to side-characters and only interact with the main characters when it's convenient to the plot. Instead, they're often right where they shouldn't be. It's not usually character development, but it is them being characters on-screen.

@Morning Glory: Remember her Mark story? She memorized all the many complicated parts of a pony body by putting the entire thing together in her mind. She's good at organizing complicated stuff together. If Somber hadn't kept throwing so much crazy stuff at her all the time, she'd already have undergone apotheosis uh, formed GloryJack-21 love triangle er, lead a rebellion against the Enclave done stuff.

@Rampage:



That's just a (bad) joke BTW. I think I'm running out of thinking here. 'Night.

[WavemasterRyx]

Chapter 57 Commentary:

[O. Hinds]

Chapter 57 Commentary:

I'm afraid that I'm quite tired from a day of traveling and thus don't have much to say in detail, but I'm very glad that you liked the chapter. :)

[Derpmind]

Done. Killing Littlepip, huh? I gotta say, she wouldn’t stand a chance against Blackjack.

I don't think Kkat ever fully exploited Littlepip's TK mastery. IIRC, Pip usually had her friends to help deal with the extreme-level enemies. In the right combat environment, I see BJ having a hard time getting close enough to do serious damage. Pip has extra durability and alicoron-level rad healing to deal with the damage she takes, but mainly she can be fast+stealthy and has ridiculous control over her environment with her TK. Plus her weapons are both flexible and powerful. If Pip can keep BJ at a distance most of the time and recover quickly enough when BJ gets in close, she could wear the cyber-pony out enough to finish her off with a TK crush.

We know Pip likely doesn't even see BJ, but it's still fun to speculate.

[StoneSlinger88]

BJ doesn't get physically tired, unless you're referring to low energy levels from not eating gems. But the TK alone could throw a large and heavy enough object to keep BJ pinned, or simply crush her outright.

[Quotidian]

...I kind of want PH to shift into total alternate timeline mode and have BJ kill Littlepip. No clue what would happen next, but wouldn't that be a hell of a twist?

[tylertoon2]

Spoiler:

[thatguyvex]

BJ doesn't need to get close. Remember mind bullets? Remember that assassination attempt where she took out a sniper hiding in a vent at a distance?

I think even Blackjack was surprised that shot landed though; it was more a luck factor than the fact that BJ can effectively snipe using TK bullets at that distance.

Littlepip would need to get the drop on Blackjack in order to have any chance whatsoever. If Blackjack can see her knows vaguely where she is, she can put enough damage into Littlepip to be able to finish up the fight quite easily.

Personally I'd say the opposite is equally true. Blackjack's easy victory here would require her to get the drop on Littlepip. If Littlepip has even the vaguest notion she's in danger or that Blackjack is a threat, she is quite a bit more capable than Blackjack when it comes to guerrilla tactics and could quite possibly hide and counter ambush Blackjack; using her own potent TK to take Blackjack down, or more likely, just immobilize her.

If Littlepip's friends get involved, they're more likely to turn into fodder than to make much of an impact, with the exception of Xenith. Even Steelhooves would be barely a distraction.
After all, Steelhooves still mostly relies on the tried and true steel ranger method of staying put and firing on his target. Blackjack has taken out multiple power armored opponents that simply didn't move fast enough to avoid her.
Velvet fights with a poison dart gun. BJ is immune to poison. Dead on arrival.
Calamity, while being a crack shot with a sniper rifle, is primarily a gunslinger with no heavy weapons to speak of. He'd immediately swap for armor piercing at first sight of BJ but, without being forewarned that the revolvers strapped to his sides flat-out won't work on her, he'd do little but tick off a goddess-driven Blackjack before she turned her attention on him and blew his head off at a glance.

Seriously? I'll agree Velvet Remedy might be a minimal threat, but mainly because there's no telling how effective her paralysis spell would be on Blackjack. We don't know how many of Blackjack's nervous system is still biological, so the paralysis spell may well drop her as easily as any other pony, but that's a coin toss.

I think you're seriously underestimating Calamity and Steelhooves however.

Calamity is essentially the best shot among the Enclave, and likely there are few, if any in the Wasteland, that can match his sharpshooting skills. He isn't stupid either; one glance at Blackjack's cybered-up body would tell him to use his anti-machine rifle with armor piercing rounds. He's as likely to one shot Blackjack as Blackjack is to one shot him; Blackjack is a good shot, but she's never claimed to be a long distance sharpshooter. As for Steelhooves, yes, Blackjack has taken down Steel Rangers before, but most of those have been less experienced that Steelhooves, and none of them have been Canterlot ghouls. Most of her 'kill shots' that she'd expect wouldn't stop him, or even slow him down much, and his return fire would be far more devastating to her. Blackjack is tough, but rapid-fire grenade rifles would still tear her up pretty bad. She could probably take him down, but she'd get badly hurt doing so, making her a softened up target for Littlepip or Calamity to finish off.

Blackjack is a badass, don't get me wrong. One on one, her vs Littlepip... it'd be a coin toss and rely heavily on the circumstances of the fight. I'll agree that Goddess controlled, setting up ambush, and taking Littlepip by surprise Blackjack would have overwhelming advantage. But in an even matchup? Not nearly so much. With Littlepip's friends helping... sorry but I think Blackjack would be buttered toast.

[tylertoon2]

If you want to know what P-21 was genetically, as in had he not been born in 99, he's mostly straight.  Psychologically, however, he can't form an intimate connection with mares.  The trauma is too severe.  So he wants affection and gratification from males, seeing them as safe.  When BJ experienced what he did, and when she spared scotch tape, and when she helped him with his addiction, it's made him able to be intimate with Blackjack.  This is one reason why he's so disgusted with himself; he instinctively desires what he can't have.

Now a caveat and a mea culpa... I'm not gay.  I had a few friends who are and so much of what I put into Glory, Blackjack, and P-21 is through them.  I know there are people who say sexuality is fundamental above psychology and trauma and that you can no more abuse someone straight as abuse someone gay.  I really don't know.  So I apologize if I offend or if I don't do this right.

 Well this covers some of my concerns.

Big part of me wishes he was though. I found Priest-21 incredibly adorable for all the short time that it happened.

[Kippershy]

Blackjack wouldn't stand a chance against Pippers for the following reasons:

-Blackjack relies on her enemies being goddess awful ponies before she can really let loose. With Littlepip, she would know the truth and not have it in her to really go 110% needed to stand a chance. Besides, she has enough hang-ups about it anyway that even if the Goddess took complete control of her body, it'd be impossible for the Goddess to utilise Blackjack's body to the level of skill that Blackjack herself does.

-Pip's TK means that no matter how hard she tries, Blackjack wouldn't stand a chance. Pip has both fine control capable of opening up locks without even thinking about it without any tools but also so strong that she can lift train cars even early(ish) on in her story. LittlePip could easily pick Blackjack up, throw her around against wall to wall, rip her limbs off, crush her face with TK powers or the environment around her and so many other things... while still shooting at her with a variety of weapons that she would no doubt be carrying.
I don't remember if she did take any weapons to the Goddess, but if it was a normal 1v1, her weapons would be enough to be more than a 22. in comparison.

[Kippershy]

Steelhooves doesn't dodge because he doesn't need to dodge.

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