Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

[Harmony Ltd.]

Though the region was probably less densely populated than the Chinese example, there would still have been quite a number of people living in the area, if only from agriculture and river trade. Maybe there also was some industries, but it probably got displaced and not just simply flooded.

Most of the people probably got displaced toward either Fancee or a Ville Nouvelle near the dam itself.

I mean, get the people displaced by the dam's construction to have a job working on maintaining said dam, isn't it only logical ? An act of royal benevolence.


Oh, also, I was thinking that there might be a number of islands in the lake, hills that didn't get completely submerged.

[O. Hinds]

Though the region was probably less densely populated than the Chinese example, there would still have been quite a number of people living in the area, if only from agriculture and river trade. Maybe there also was some industries, but it probably got displaced and not just simply flooded.

Most of the people probably got displaced toward either Fancee or a Ville Nouvelle near the dam itself.

I mean, get the people displaced by the dam's construction to have a job working on maintaining said dam, isn't it only logical ? An act of royal benevolence.


Oh, also, I was thinking that there might be a number of islands in the lake, hills that didn't get completely submerged.

Sounds logical.

[Harmony Ltd.]

By the by, that would have been a lot of good and productive agricultural land flooded just to give more power to Manhattan (and also Fancee and the other cities of the region, but it's easier to direct hate toward the Big City).

I guess there would have been a lot of resentment born of that, at least in the pre-Apocalypse period.

[O. Hinds]

By the by, that would have been a lot of good and productive agricultural land flooded just to give more power to Manhattan (and also Fancee and the other cities of the region, but it's easier to direct hate toward the Big City).

I guess there would have been a lot of resentment born of that, at least in the pre-Apocalypse period.

Power and water, probably, but yeah.

[Harmony Ltd.]

On the other hand, I guess you could have seen the rise of a fishing industry on the shores of the lake ?

[O. Hinds]

On the other hand, I guess you could have seen the rise of a fishing industry on the shores of the lake ?

Doesn't help the displaced farmers, though.

[Harmony Ltd.]

"Her Majesty Princess Luna, in her wisdom, has seen fit to propose to those displaced by the construction of the Trotson Dam with fishing equipment to exploit the newly created resources born of the Dam's erection.

All those who wish to benefit from this offer are called to the city of Trotson-les-bains to be assigned a fishing boat and assorted equipment as a gift of benevolence from the Princess. [*]

Long live Equestria ! Praises be to the Princess ! Death to the Stripes !


[*]: first interests payments not due before five years"

[O. Hinds]

:)

[O. Hinds]

What do you think of having the present Alliance navy based on Type 42 destroyers?  Obviously there would be differences, but having an "it's a lot like this IRL thing" thing is useful.  I was originally thinking something more like the Ticoderoga-class cruisers, but those might be a bit too intensive… Opinions?

[Harmony Ltd.]

Well, before I start answering, one question :

What would these ships be used to ? What would be the expected "adversaries" ? In what doctrine of use do they fit ? What would be their role in a fleet ?

Etc...

Basically, why did the Alliance build these ships, and with what intent ? And most importantly, with what resources ?

[O. Hinds]

Well, before I start answering, one question :

What would these ships be used to ? What would be the expected "adversaries" ? In what doctrine of use do they fit ? What would be their role in a fleet ?

Etc...

Basically, why did the Alliance build these ships, and with what intent ? And most importantly, with what resources ?

The Alliance relies heavily on shipping and water travel; this is becoming less the case as its mainland holdings become steadily more developed, but it is still quite important. At the time of the Alliance's founding, Masozi was its main industrial center while Elusive city was its capital and the source of its petroleum. Masozi had no land routes to anywhere except GPE groundspace, and Elusive City is of course floating out in the middle of the Mareditteranean. In order to exchange large amounts of resources with each other and what would develop into the Alliance heartland, they needed ships. Both Elusive City and Masozi also harvest significant amounts of food from the ocean, meaning that their fishing fleets are yet more ships out and about. With all this valuable tonnage on the water, security concerns of course arose. Intelligent pirates would be put off attacking by the presence of Miliozi marines, but not all pirates were intelligent and/or sane. Moreover, sea monsters were also a concern. While individual ships can be and are fitted with weapons, a proper navy both increases safety and could be useful in the event of conflict with an organized power (the only known big one at the time being the GPE, but still). It's also good for morale and diplomacy; it says clearly and irrefutably to potential enemies and allies alike "We are just just scavengers or survivors; we are building again, we are strong, and we are thriving" in a way that bolting guns to a fishing boat just doesn't do as well. So... to sum up the mission: Protect Alliance shipping and fishing, impress potential allies, and intimidate potential enemies (with a side order of "be ready to fight an organized opponent should one appear").

Due to resource limitations, though, the ships need to be as small, standardized, and multipurpose as possible while still being able to fulfill their mission. Fortunately, the Alliance, due largely to having Profectum and Elusive, has some very good technology at its disposal to mitigate its resource shortages (even if they can get together everything for bigger ships, that means that those resources aren't being used for anything else). The combination of desired traits is still quite difficult to achieve, but, fortunately, the bar is also pretty low prior to, at the earliest, the appearance of Red Eye.


Interesting thought: due to said resource shortages, I imagine that the Alliance might actually use a lot of wooden ships. Not sailing ships, mind, just wooden ones.

[Harmony Ltd.]

"Interesting thought: due to said resource shortages, I imagine that the Alliance might actually use a lot of wooden ships. Not sailing ships, mind, just wooden ones." => that would suggest they have in their territories the kind of forests with the right kind of wood it would take to sustain wood-ship-building efforts.

The territories near and around Gibhaltar, maybe ?

[Harmony Ltd.]

Unrelated random thought :

What kind of unit would have as a motto "First In, Last Out" ?

[Harmony Ltd.]

I was thinking of some kind of rapid-intervention force which would also double as a shock / counter-insurrection unit. Something which as the same time is cut for the quickest possible reaction time and maximal ability, and at the same time hard-hitting and able to enter protracted fight.

Notice the apparently contradictory goals. Probably one of these "Elite" units...

[Harmony Ltd.]

I think I may have an idea for a story.

Maybe I'll be able to work on it starting next week once school is finally over...

[Harmony Ltd.]

So to answer your question about the type of ship the Alliance use... I can't really comment on the Type 62 itself as the subject is just slightly above my level of competence.

What I'll say is, what I think might fit the kind of "niche" you want the Alliance's ships to fit.


First, they're primarily escorts. Accompanying other ships as they sail around is what they do. They aren't coast guards, they're supposed to take the high sea. So, if I'm not mistaken, what you want is something with range and endurance.

Then come second the need for firepower. But comparatively with what we would see on the seas today, the Alliance doesn't need THAT much firepower. Just enough to utterly dominate what little opposition they may find on the sea, with just enough surplus to eventually take on a peer power.

But most of all, you want something cheap you can produce a lot of without spending too much resources.


So here's the kind of armament I propose you would see :

1 x 57mm gun
8 x VLS slots
2 x CIWS monotube guns doubling as anti-boarding defense systems

Plus a few anti-missile laser.

And maybe a ramp to launch torpedoes from the deck ? With a reserve of something like 16-20 general purpose torpedoes ?

Couple that with good radar and sonar, but nothing too fancy - just what you need to have a decent awareness of what happen in the 50 kilometers around you, above and below the sea.

And propelled by a gas turbine offering enough oomph! to be able to do 25 knots if need be, but efficient enough to be able to have a cruise speed of 15 knots without wasting too much fuel. And a backup diesel generator able to light the ship's electronics in case of the main engine failure and to allow it limp back home to port in case of severe damage. So maybe an electric drive for the propellers themselves ? I think that's the kind of technical solutions the Alliance would like, if it doesn't add too much cost.


I guess you could have something like that in a package under 5,000 tons of displacement ? I think it wouldn't be too hard to have such a ship under 1,800 tons. If it's an Elusive ship's, you can probably expect a lot of automation. So the crew could maybe be reduced to around 20 or something ? The bare minimum of officers on the deck, a few weapons officer, and the rest in weapon and engine maintenance. And around 3-5 guys working for the food aspect of things.


I think that would be a frigate, by most standards.

Strike that, that's definitely a corvette.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Such a ship would be the backbone of the Alliance's Navy, but it wouldn't be that powerful. It's more intended for flag-waving and the occasional anti-piracy operations.

Somehow I would imagine the Alliance to have a few diesel-electric submarines that may or may not be completely automated to patrol the waters around the Alliance's major ports : Elusive City, Masozi, Gibalthar ; and the Gibalthar Strait itself.

And in reserve maybe, maybe a short-deck aircraft carrier / amphibious warfare ship.

[O. Hinds]

"Interesting thought: due to said resource shortages, I imagine that the Alliance might actually use a lot of wooden ships. Not sailing ships, mind, just wooden ones." => that would suggest they have in their territories the kind of forests with the right kind of wood it would take to sustain wood-ship-building efforts.

The territories near and around Gibhaltar, maybe ?

Hm, interesting idea. Originally, that could have been it. There are also not terribly unlikely suitable woods somewhere in the Alliance heartland.

So to answer your question about the type of ship the Alliance use... I can't really comment on the Type 62 itself as the subject is just slightly above my level of competence.

What I'll say is, what I think might fit the kind of "niche" you want the Alliance's ships to fit.


First, they're primarily escorts. Accompanying other ships as they sail around is what they do. They aren't coast guards, they're supposed to take the high sea. So, if I'm not mistaken, what you want is something with range and endurance.

Then come second the need for firepower. But comparatively with what we would see on the seas today, the Alliance doesn't need THAT much firepower. Just enough to utterly dominate what little opposition they may find on the sea, with just enough surplus to eventually take on a peer power.

But most of all, you want something cheap you can produce a lot of without spending too much resources.


So here's the kind of armament I propose you would see :

1 x 57mm gun
8 x VLS slots
2 x CIWS monotube guns doubling as anti-boarding defense systems

Plus a few anti-missile laser.

And maybe a ramp to launch torpedoes from the deck ? With a reserve of something like 16-20 general purpose torpedoes ?

Couple that with good radar and sonar, but nothing too fancy - just what you need to have a decent awareness of what happen in the 50 kilometers around you, above and below the sea.

And propelled by a gas turbine offering enough oomph! to be able to do 25 knots if need be, but efficient enough to be able to have a cruise speed of 15 knots without wasting too much fuel. And a backup diesel generator able to light the ship's electronics in case of the main engine failure and to allow it limp back home to port in case of severe damage. So maybe an electric drive for the propellers themselves ? I think that's the kind of technical solutions the Alliance would like, if it doesn't add too much cost.


I guess you could have something like that in a package under 5,000 tons of displacement ? I think it wouldn't be too hard to have such a ship under 1,800 tons. If it's an Elusive ship's, you can probably expect a lot of automation. So the crew could maybe be reduced to around 20 or something ? The bare minimum of officers on the deck, a few weapons officer, and the rest in weapon and engine maintenance. And around 3-5 guys working for the food aspect of things.


I think that would be a frigate, by most standards.

Strike that, that's definitely a corvette.

Hey, nice analysis! Thanks! It's a bit of a pity to not have aircraft capability beyond small drones, but eh, compromises. The crew would probably be a bit larger than you imagine, though; you've not included the marines. I'm thinking, though, that the navy is a properly Alliance institution (not, like the army, basically the Miliozi with a few helpers and an extra flag), so there likely would be very high degrees of automation.

Such a ship would be the backbone of the Alliance's Navy, but it wouldn't be that powerful. It's more intended for flag-waving and the occasional anti-piracy operations.

Somehow I would imagine the Alliance to have a few diesel-electric submarines that may or may not be completely automated to patrol the waters around the Alliance's major ports : Elusive City, Masozi, Gibalthar ; and the Gibalthar Strait itself.

And in reserve maybe, maybe a short-deck aircraft carrier / amphibious warfare ship.

The submarine idea is good. There might also be more submarines once the NCR gets going…

The Alliance might actually have some wooden rotodaen carriers. I like that idea, actually; let's go with it. Not-VTOL aircraft are of course much more demanding, though, and I'm skeptical that even the present day Alliance has carriers for them (Now, the Alliance does have ZELL-capable fighters, but that doesn't help much if there's nowhere for the fighters to land…hm… Maybe the Arrowhead has a carrier variant is designed to ZELL, parachute to a splashdown, and then be fished out of the water by a crane?).


Also, a thought: I imagine that the navy might be rather annoyed with Elusive. Sure, probably not too much annoyed, since he's pivotal for their ships' computers and automation, but every salvaged ship or ton of floating steel that goes into Elusive City is one that isn't going into the navy.

[O. Hinds]

Unrelated random thought :

What kind of unit would have as a motto "First In, Last Out" ?

...Hm. "First In" implies a spearhead or beachhead force. Trouble is, "Last Out" implies either a retreat-covering force or a group of final occupying forces, and these three groups don't have a tremendous amount in common. Possibly covert special forces? They get in possibly years before anyone else, do their jobs secretly (if things go as planned), continue hiding through any hot war that happens, and pull out possibly years after everyone else?

I was thinking of some kind of rapid-intervention force which would also double as a shock / counter-insurrection unit. Something which as the same time is cut for the quickest possible reaction time and maximal ability, and at the same time hard-hitting and able to enter protracted fight.

Notice the apparently contradictory goals. Probably one of these "Elite" units...

Hm... Or that could work.

I think I may have an idea for a story.

Maybe I'll be able to work on it  starting next week once school is finally over...

Hey, nice!

[O. Hinds]

Oh, and it looks like there are corvettes that carry aircraft, anyway. Not sure how useful that would be as a standard feature, but maybe it could be an optional configuration.

[O. Hinds]

Maybe something like the Sa'ar 5?

[Harmony Ltd.]

Sa'ar 5 => yeah, I'll have to look in more details but I guess it could work. Us the missiles and torpedoes on the ship to do heavy ship to ship action, and use the on board rotodyne armed with an autocannon to fuck up the little boats without endangering the ship by coming close to them (they could always try a kamikaze attack).

[O. Hinds]

Sa'ar 5 => yeah, I'll have to look in more details but I guess it could work. Us the missiles and torpedoes on the ship to do heavy ship to ship action, and use the on board rotodyne armed with an autocannon to fuck up the little boats without endangering the ship by coming close to them (they could always try a kamikaze attack).

Aye, one could use the rotodaen for that. I imagine that just using the CIWS would be preferable, due to being cheaper and, unless the rotodaen's already in the air, faster, but it depends on the number and nature of the opponents.

The most likely rotodaen for the ships, by the way, is probably a Skyshark, so adding "naval rotodaen" to their list of uses will bump up the number of them that the Alliance has.

[Harmony Ltd.]

By the way, I was under the impression that the Alliance primarily used laser as anti-air and anti-missile defense, so the "CIWS" would probably be less of  an area saturation thing like the PHALANX, and more of a rapid fire long range (~4000 meters) autocannon with reasonable precision, I would think.

[O. Hinds]

By the way, I was under the impression that the Alliance primarily used laser as anti-air and anti-missile defense, so the "CIWS" would probably be less of  an area saturation thing like the PHALANX, and more of a rapid fire long range (~4000 meters) autocannon with reasonable precision, I would think.

Aye, makes sense. Though magic beam weapons (which I assume are what you meant by "lasers") are expensive due to needing gems. That said, the Alliance is very good with them; that's why Alliance military rotodaens don't really worry about missiles and rockets unless said missiles are fired at point blank range and/or en masse. Under other circumstances, it's actually possible that the anti-missile beams could have destroyed the missile before the pilot finishes realizing that it's there. I believe that this was mentioned back when you were talking about that powerful next-generation AM rifle thing that the NCR was developing definitely not because the aircraft fielded by their good friends the Alliance are vulnerable to beams and kinetics but not, without luck, missiles.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Aye, one could use the rotodaen for that. I imagine that just using the CIWS would be preferable, due to being cheaper and, unless the rotodaen's already in the air, faster, but it depends on the number and nature of the opponents.

The most likely rotodaen for the ships, by the way, is probably a Skyshark, so adding "naval rotodaen" to their list of uses will bump up the number of them that the Alliance has.

The idea would be that the ship's radar and sonar would work to detect with a reasonable reliability all the ships in a given area, and the rotodaen would be sent on recon upon contact with a non-identified echo ; pinging said "echo" with 20mm high explosive autocannon shells if necessary, and otherwise channeling back data to the ship for it to launch a missile or a torpedo if it is hostile but too strong for the rotodaen to take it out on its own.

[O. Hinds]

Aye, one could use the rotodaen for that. I imagine that just using the CIWS would be preferable, due to being cheaper and, unless the rotodaen's already in the air, faster, but it depends on the number and nature of the opponents.

The most likely rotodaen for the ships, by the way, is probably a Skyshark, so adding "naval rotodaen" to their list of uses will bump up the number of them that the Alliance has.

The idea would be that the ship's radar and sonar would work to detect with a reasonable reliability all the ships in a given area, and the rotodaen would be sent on recon upon contact with a non-identified echo ; pinging said "echo" with 20mm high explosive autocannon shells if necessary, and otherwise channeling back data to the ship for it to launch a missile or a torpedo if it is hostile but too strong for the rotodaen to take it out on its own.

If the echo isn't closing fast, the ship will probably send up a drone to get a look at things prior to/instead of sending up the rotodaen, but yeah.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Also, with the torpedoes that the ship would carry, it would be at least nominally competent to try its hands at anti-submarine warfare ; at least if can coordinate its sonars and the torpedoes, and if the torpedoes are able to home on a moving target (on-board sonar guidance system ?).

Maybe the ship would also have a few depth charges as a standard load, just in case ? Would the rotodaen be able to drop a depth charge above the area were it is suspected a submarine is ?

[Harmony Ltd.]

Oh, also a thing :

wooden ships have structural constraints which force them to have a limited size (a question material resistance to deformation).

So a wooden rotodaen carrier would be constrained to have a limited size, and I doubt it could carry much weight.

What could be conceived, on the other hand, would be to have a ship with a steel "skeleton", but with a wooden hull in order to limit the use of steel overall in the ship construction. Some kind of mix like that.

[O. Hinds]

Also, with the torpedoes that the ship would carry, it would be at least nominally competent to try its hands at anti-submarine warfare ; at least if can coordinate its sonars and the torpedoes, and if the torpedoes are able to home on a moving target (on-board sonar guidance system ?).

I don't think that coordination would be a problem; Elusive being himself a computer network, the Alliance is good at computer networking, and there are already plenty of robots swimming around under Elusive City.

Maybe the ship would also have a few depth charges as a standard load, just in case ? Would the rotodaen be able to drop a depth charge above the area were it is suspected a submarine is ?

I don't see why not, though there is of course a limit to how much it could carry at any one time. Nice idea.

Oh, also a thing :

wooden ships have structural constraints which force them to have a limited size (a question material resistance to deformation).

So a wooden rotodaen carrier would be constrained to have a limited size, and I doubt it could carry much weight.

What could be conceived, on the other hand, would be to have a ship with a steel "skeleton", but with a wooden hull in order to limit the use of steel overall in the ship construction. Some kind of mix like that.

Niiiiiice idea! Thanks!

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