Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

[Harmony Ltd.]

My first guess, regarding Neighpon as having been originally a colony of non-equines, was that it may have been a Porca Porca trading post or something, kind of like a number of IRL cities in the mediterranean sea having been founded by phenicians or greeks to project their own trading network.

[Harmony Ltd.]

It would maybe be funny if Porca Porca's swines were actually the ones from whom the "Japanese" influences of Neighpon came from. With the archipelago's culture being some kind of bastardized version of Japanese / Chinese / Korean cultures.

[O. Hinds]

It would maybe be funny if Porca Porca's swines were actually the ones from whom the "Japanese" influences of Neighpon came from. With the archipelago's culture being some kind of bastardized version of Japanese / Chinese / Korean cultures.

Hm... Hah, yes, that does sound interesting!

[Harmony Ltd.]

'cause I know you love linguistics, Hinds :

Maybe we could imagine that Porca Porca's writing system originated long ago from proto-zebra and diverged from there. Same difference as between Chinese and Korean, for example.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Looking at wikipedia it seems Korean isn't in fact descended from "Chinese".

But you get the idea.

A better example would be chinese and japanese.

[O. Hinds]

'cause I know you love linguistics, Hinds :

Maybe we could imagine that Porca Porca's writing system originated long ago from proto-zebra and diverged from there. Same difference as between Chinese and Korean, for example.

Looking at wikipedia it seems Korean isn't in fact descended from "Chinese".

But you get the idea.

A better example would be chinese and japanese.

What do you mean by "proto-zebra"?

[Harmony Ltd.]

In this case, the language(s) spoken and written by zebra tribes in the area surrounding the Sea of Equestria in the period 2500 to 1500 years priors to the events of Fallout Equestria.

[Harmony Ltd.]

(I don't remember your own timeline, but I would tend to have the events of Hearth Warming Eve as taking place around 1500 years before MLP:FiM, give or take 250 years.)

[O. Hinds]

(I don't remember your own timeline, but I would tend to have the events of Hearth Warming Eve as taking place around 1500 years before MLP:FiM, give or take 250 years.)

I've got it being about 1600 years; nice.
Reposting my timeline, since it might be useful:

formation of the Pax Roamana 0PR
defeat of the diamond dog empire by the Northern Zebras 50PR
meteor and fall of the Northern Zebras 80PR
pony colonization of the Equestrian Peninsula 180PR 0E
Discord arrives, Celestia and Luna descend 580PR 400E->0G
Nightmare Moon rises and is defeated 780PR 200G->0C
FiM begins 1780PR 1000C->0D
the war begins 1795PR 15D
Littlehorn 1804PR 21D->0L
the war ends 1815PR 11L
FoE 2015PR 211L->0SR
the NCR allows the EA to begin operating, within limits, in NCR territory 2026PR 11SR

[O. Hinds]

In this case, the language(s) spoken and written by zebra tribes in the area surrounding the Sea of Equestria in the period 2500 to 1500 years priors to the events of Fallout Equestria.

Hm, well, I'm not actually sure what the Northern languages were/are like, but early Roaman Zebra would have been being used in that area for at least eighty years between the formation of the Pax Roamana and the fall of Northern civilization in its old form.

Hm... The pigs could have probably picked it up while still on their islands, since I imagine that there'd be sea traffic past them. I'm not sure what would have motivated the creation of Neighpon, though.

[Harmony Ltd.]

As a trading outpost, being part of a series of other trading outposts all around the Sea of Equestria ?

Historical examples of such practices would be the Phenicians, the ancient Greeks (I think), Venice, and to some extent the european colonial powers, with the "creation" of trading colonies in Africa, America and Asia.

Powers which are dependent on trade will tend to take active steps in ensuring the security of their trade routes, which may include setting up your own trading infrastructure in foreign territories (eg : the Chinese investing in the consstruction of harbors, roads and railways in Africa to secure their imports).

[Harmony Ltd.]

This of course take the idea that the swines have historically been traders with a long naval tradition and run with it like mad.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Lol

Literal Capitalist Pigs.

[Harmony Ltd.]

I just noted that from your timeline :

the NCR allows the EA to begin operating, within limits, in NCR territory 2026PR 11SR

That would be after the Fall of the Enclave (schism of the Pegasi Society into three major groups) and between one and five years after the end of the major combat operations against the group which decided to destroy the Surface ; but still a few years before the official end of the "Bitter War". That'd place this authorization in the context of the NCR having a relative peace in its core territories while being still fully mobilized for war (at least nominally), and still fighting against an opponent using Guerrilla- and Bio-Warfare[*] tactics.

How likely would it be that the Alliance would have proposed the NCR some help in waging that particular war, and for what price ? Or maybe giving help in waging that war would have been a price set by the NCR for the Alliance to be able to officially establish trading relations with the NCR ? That would have been a pretty ballsy move on the NCR's part given the balance of power was in the Alliance's advantage there...


[*] : be it a modified version of Lighthooves' virus or a totally different kind of disease / parasite.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Also, _IF_ the Alliance decided to help the NCR in fighting the "Bitters", what would have been the most likely form taken by said assistance, in the context of the "Bitters" being at that time reduced to using guerilla warfare against the NCR's supply-lines and trade routes, and bio-terrorism against its civilian population centers ?

[O. Hinds]

This of course take the idea that the swines have historically been traders with a long naval tradition and run with it like mad.

Right, and that's what I'm doub--

Lol

Literal Capitalist Pigs.

…Okay. I don't care that it seems unlikely; this needs to be made to work. :D
So, why would they only found Neighpon? Hm… Perhaps Zanzebra's predecessor was also theirs? That would give them one trading post centered on the north coast and on the north extremity of the south coast. Could do with another one further down the south coast…
Hm… Perhaps they just had a presence in Aquimania?

How likely would it be that the Alliance would have proposed the NCR some help in waging that particular war, and for what price ? Or maybe giving help in waging that war would have been a price set by the NCR for the Alliance to be able to officially establish trading relations with the NCR ? That would have been a pretty ballsy move on the NCR's part given the balance of power was in the Alliance's advantage there...

Hm… Well, to start with, the Alliance would want the NCR to win, or at least for the GPE to lose. The GPE denied access to the peninsula, was uninterested in Elusive's trade, and would have been a nightmare to fight (The Alliance can blow them up fine… but the problem is that that's all they can do. They don't have nearly enough cloudwalking troops and materiel to hold GPE territory, which means that, in order to win, the Alliance would have to engage in en masse killing of civilians to control the survivors through fear… and for a wide variety of reasons, that is something that pretty much no one in the Alliance wants to do except as a last resort.). The NCR could, one way or another, be dealt with.

The Alliance would still extract as high a price as practical from the NCR for helping, of course (though the opening of trade relations, even initially limited ones, would be the minimum), but the NCR does have some bargaining chips. The Alliance could steamroll the NCR army in open combat ("Oh, you've just managed to get semiautomatic rifles that don't need duct tape? How cute; let's see how they fare against a massed armor and mechanised infantry charge with full air support…") provided that Celestia One could be taken out (and Celestia One being destroyed by infiltrators would almost certainly be the opening shot of an Alliance/NCR war at that time), but the difficult part would be after that. While the Alliance doesn't even have complete maps of the peninsula, the prospective former NCR irregulars are mostly pretty much by necessity independent-minded, armed, survivalist natives. It's not quite a USSR in Afghanistan situation, since there's no US analogue supplying the resistance, but subduing the peninsula would still likely be long and bloody. The Miliozi are willing and, they believe, able, but the price is high enough that they're willing to try Elusive's way first. And Elusive, of course, would prefer economic conquest to force of arms anyway (something which he attributes to the superior long-term viewpoint of a functional immortal).

Also, _IF_ the Alliance decided to help the NCR in fighting the "Bitters", what would have been the most likely form taken by said assistance, in the context of the "Bitters" being at that time reduced to using guerilla warfare against the NCR's supply-lines and trade routes, and bio-terrorism against its civilian population centers ?

Well, firstly, it comes to mind that the Alliance could have Profectum take a look at the bioterrorism and work on developing countermeasures. Or, if the countermeasures already exist but just aren't widely-enough available to the NCR, lend their industrial capacity to fixing that. Alliance patrols could make the Bitters scared of flying any higher than nap-of-the-earth, and Alliance guards accompanying caravans could reduce attacks or the damage therefrom there (this might be a good place to bring in those armored locomotives that I modeled, if the trade routes are by rail… and the locomotives owned, operated, armed, and fueled by the Alliance would, of course, coincidentally be faster and stronger than any equivalent that the NCR could build at the time :)). The Alliance might also encourage pegasi to, for their own safety and for the safety and comfort of others, emigrate to Elusive City (where, thanks to body language interpretation software, even thinking subversively might be picked up)...

[O. Hinds]

While I'm here, a bit more on Red Rose's time in Fillydelphia that I thought of, specifically why she wasn't more prominent:
Red Rose was basically Red Eye's second fallback plan (behind Protege and Stern); if everything else failed, she could be relied upon to be intelligent, charismatic, and have her head in the right place (while still being sufficiently ruthless where necessary). Even if she wasn't called upon to do that, she would stand with the guards protecting Red Eye's children. The reason why she was not further up the chain, though (working with Protege and Sten instead of being the backup if they failed), was also the reason why she was not more prominent and both a weakness and a strength: while she's diplomatic, she's pretty much not just apolitical but antipolitical. In other words, she'll sweet-talk outsiders, but her views towards internal order have been nicely summed up by one Mr. Cobb: "You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til ya understand who's in ruttin' command here." Advice is accepted (not even Red Eye was completely infallible), and a little jockeying for position is unavoidable; anything more than that, however, is target practice. Red Rose was, after all, as Bloodflower brought up a raider, and her very cutie mark brands her as a fanatic. Were she to be put in charge of Red Eye's victorious empire, purges would swiftly follow. While this would mean that people like Chainlink Shackles would be briefly given the opportunity to intimidate bullets, sledgehammers, and fire into submission (with predictable results), it runs into a Stalinist problem: Yes, you've killed the bad apples and terrified everyone else into submission… but a: the bad apples were mostly in charge because they were more competent then their replacements and b: sure, you've said that you're open to advice, but how are your frightened underlings to know where the line between "Oh, thank you." and "TREASON! [bang]" is?

[Harmony Ltd.]

Lol

Literal Capitalist Pigs.

…Okay. I don't care that it seems unlikely; this needs to be made to work. :D
So, why would they only found Neighpon? Hm… Perhaps Zanzebra's predecessor was also theirs? That would give them one trading post centered on the north coast and on the north extremity of the south coast. Could do with another one further down the south coast…
Hm… Perhaps they just had a presence in Aquimania?

The idea was in fact that Neighpon wasn't the only one of such colonies around the Sea of Equestria, but that it was one of the few which not only survived the passing of time but also prospered to become a metropolis in modern times. Don't forget we're talking about a 2000 years timespan, there : cities that were prosperous in Antiquity but are only ruins / archaeological sites nowadays are not that rare around the Mediterranean.

You could envision Zanzebra and Aquimania to have originally been such outposts, but it's not necessary if you don't want to : the Sea of Equestria is large enough that other cities could exist on its coast that you haven't mapped. After all I very much doubt that the region would have been uninhabited outside of the cities you mapped. So you could imagine that there's other, minor cities along the coast which also served the swines as outposts on the Continent - it doesn't matter if they were officially in charge or not, if they were a major source of incomes for these places they could as well have owned them.

[O. Hinds]

Lol

Literal Capitalist Pigs.

…Okay. I don't care that it seems unlikely; this needs to be made to work. :D
So, why would they only found Neighpon? Hm… Perhaps Zanzebra's predecessor was also theirs? That would give them one trading post centered on the north coast and on the north extremity of the south coast. Could do with another one further down the south coast…
Hm… Perhaps they just had a presence in Aquimania?

The idea was in fact that Neighpon wasn't the only one of such colonies around the Sea of Equestria, but that it was one of the few which not only survived the passing of time but also prospered to become a metropolis in modern times. Don't forget we're talking about a 2000 years timespan, there : cities that were prosperous in Antiquity but are only ruins / archaeological sites nowadays are not that rare around the Mediterranean.

You could envision Zanzebra and Aquimania to have originally been such outposts, but it's not necessary if you don't want to : the Sea of Equestria is large enough that other cities could exist on its coast that you haven't mapped. After all I very much doubt that the region would have been uninhabited outside of the cities you mapped. So you could imagine that there's other, minor cities along the coast which also served the swines as outposts on the Continent - it doesn't matter if they were officially in charge or not, if they were a major source of incomes for these places they could as well have owned them.

Ah, good point; I was thinking that all of the outposts would have become as prominent as Neighpon, but, yeah, that doesn't make sense. Thanks!

[Harmony Ltd.]

Random question :

If you have air-capable ships (Raptors, etc...), would you really need to build a navy ?


I'd tend to say yes, if only :

- to ensure the safety of maritime trade routes
- to hunt subs
- for range reason : do we know how long one of these air-ships can loiter over an area or how far they can go from a friendly base before needing to refuel ?


But on the other hand... if you were a power with historically little naval tradition and lots of natural born flyers, I guess that having a sky fleet would seem more natural than a water fleet.

I mean... Equestria thought it was a good thing to build such humongous ships as the Luna or the Celestia... There's a saying about eggs and baskets that comes to mind.

I couldn't explain why in particular, but I would tend to imagine Equestria as not really being a naval power ; if only because it lives on a contiguous peninsula, was mostly self-sufficient before starting trading with the Zebras, and seems to have been de facto isolationist for most of its history (not seeking the external world and being happy to stay in its own backyard).

[Harmony Ltd.]

Though I wonder how you could realistically be isolationist when your rulers are the ones who literally make the world go round...

[Harmony Ltd.]

We'll be back on Neighpon in a bit, but first, to better build the place, we need to have a better understanding of Porca Porca, its culture in ancient and modern time, and how it might have influenced Neighpon and the rest of the Sea of Equestria coastal area.



So, the basic premise of Porca Porca thus far :

- Needs to be Independent and Neutral (to the point of having no extradition treaties) while retaining during the war trading relationships with both belligerents.
- Needs to be attractive from a tourist's point of view (beaches, sunny climate, night life, etc...)
- Inhabitants are literal Capitalist Pigs
- Culture is a bastardized mix of East Asian inspiration (China / Japan / Korea)




Here's a first seed of idea :

Spiritually they don't have an "afterlife" per se, rather they have some form of ancestor worship, the living having the duty to ensure the comfort of the ancestors spirit => extremely strong family culture. Influence on marriage ? Who gets to "inherit" the Ancestor Worship / Guardianship duties ? => wider question of gender-balance in society.

They also worship a number of spirits : river spirits, forests spirits, house spirits... The idea that spirits inhabits everything they see is a fact of life for them.



For the "Capitalist" aspect, I was thinking that, in part because of their obligation to ensure the "comfort" of their family and of the ancestors' spirits, they have extremely strong cultural incentives to acquire / build capital.

One consequence of this heavily family-centered culture is that they naturally (more than is usual anyway) tend to be lukewarm to strangers. They also tend to be traditionalists and to have a strong love of Order - on both social and political aspects. They strive to build what they see as an "Harmonious" society.

On the other hand and paradoxically, this incentive to build capital and this love of order translate itself in them having an excellent entrepreneurial culture, and making them extremely dynamic traders, using their networks of relations to quickly achieve their objectives.

The fact they live on an archipelago and that they have historically required to import a number of resources to sustain their economy while producing themselves a number of luxury goods (wine, pearls, ...) has early on taught them both a strong naval tradition and to entertain trading relationships with the wider world.

However, the relative vulnerability of their geographical position (invading the islands might be difficult, but blockading the archipelago in itself is relatively trivial) has forced them to juggle their diplomatic position in order to keep their independence from both Equestria and the Pax Roamana, while not antagonizing either. It is a lucky accident of history in Porca Porca's favor that Equestria was neither an expansionist power nor a generally ill-intentioned one.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Yo Hinds, I did a quick calculation using the scale you've given for your Map of Zebrica (=>1px = 6km), and if the green horizontal line at the bottom of the map is supposed to be the Equator and the planet has the same radius as Earth ;

then the southern border of Equestria is roughly at the same latitude as Alger / Morocco, and Hoofington roughly at the same latitude as Milano.


The fact the climate isn't particularly dry might be explained by the fact the place is surrounded by the sea on every side but the south ; or it may be explained by the fact Pegasi have managed the place's climate for the last two thousand years or so (and then there's the Cloud Curtain / Single Pegasus Project).

What I find interesting is the Appleloosa Desert. It being arid fit with the latitude, but not with the fact the rest of the peninsula isn't. Moreover, the fact it's on the western side of the peninsula, just right next to the ocean, west of a mountain range, at that latitude... Well, in theory it should be the Pacific Northwest.


One possible explanation as to why that vast plain is barren could be the following :

- the hills on the coast are high enough to block a decent amount of the rain
- the area itself isn't arid as much as it is barren and has a poor soil. Might be some scares left from Discord's time ?

^ That would explain why ponies were starting to settle the area only around the time of MLP:FiM : the place just wasn't worth it as long as there was space elsewhere for the taking. But once all the easy spots had been taken, some adventurous ponies took their chance.


Also, the presence of Fillydelphia, a big river, and the San Frantello bay on the same "desert plain" seems to suggest that the climate isn't really arid to begin with.




How do we reconcile all that ? Because in MLP:FiM canon, Appleloosa totally has an Arizona-like climate, at least in appearance.

[StoneSlinger88]

Actually, if you observe the show closely, noting the sun's position and direction the train travels to Appleloosa, you can figure that Appleloosa is actually around a ten-hour ride south of Ponyville. The sun is setting while they're already on the move, and it's past sunrise when the Mane 6 arrive.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Yeah, in all likelihood it should probably be in the southern part of the plain, south of Fillydelphia, I'd say 100-150km north-northeast of Littlehorn ; in the middle of the plain between the two mountain ranges.

[Harmony Ltd.]

By the way, that giant mountain range that bissect the peninsula from North to South ? With only a few practicable roads open to traverse them (depending on how imposing the mountain range actually is), it's going to make it so that the NCR will tend to have its progression blocked eastward, and so it will instead concentrate its efforts (at first at least) to the north of the Core territories, toward Fancee / St. Paulomino / Stockhast / Trottingham.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Concerning Appleloosa : what counts in this case is the FoE canon and not the MLP:FiM one, but the fact it's so close from Ponyville has always bugged me to be honest.


Worst come to worst, we could always pretend it's not actually Appleloosa but another nameless town, which the raiders rediscovered, uninhabitated, and they named it after a famous name they had heard before and which sounded cool.

Or some crap like that, I don't know. I could extrude from my ass rationalizations of that kind all night long.

I have a very creative asshole, tell you what.

[O. Hinds]

re Porca Porca:
Sounds interesting.

then the southern border of Equestria is roughly at the same latitude as Alger / Morocco, and Hoofington roughly at the same latitude as Milano.

Hm… According to my measurements and calculations, the northern edge of the peninsula would be at about the latitude of Brittany and the southern point would be a bit south of Barcelona. I'm not sure whence our difference is arising.

The fact the climate isn't particularly dry might be explained by the fact the place is surrounded by the sea on every side but the south

Well, it's pretty much surrounded by the sea to the south, too.

- the hills on the coast are high enough to block a decent amount of the rain
- the area itself isn't arid as much as it is barren and has a poor soil.

Both of these, I was thinking. Also, a potential key point is that I have doubts about whether the planet rotates, which would significantly alter weather patterns.

Yeah, in all likelihood it should probably be in the southern part of the plain, south of Fillydelphia, I'd say 100-150km north-northeast of Littlehorn ; in the middle of the plain between the two mountain ranges.

Appleloosa's position was taken from SilentCarto's original map, and I'm not going to discard my cartography work because of it. Sorry.

By the way, that giant mountain range that bissect the peninsula from North to South ? With only a few practicable roads open to traverse them (depending on how imposing the mountain range actually is), it's going to make it so that the NCR will tend to have its progression blocked eastward, and so it will instead concentrate its efforts (at first at least) to the north of the Core territories, toward Fancee / St. Paulomino / Stockhast / Trottingham.

Aye, I was thinking that.

Concerning Appleloosa : what counts in this case is the FoE canon and not the MLP:FiM one

Ah, thank you.

but the fact it's so close from Ponyville has always bugged me to be honest.

Why?

[Harmony Ltd.]

Why Appleloosa's position bugs me : because it seems really too close from Ponyville when you take into account how long the Mane 6 needed to get there by train.

Though you could always say that the longest part (temporally) was done with the ponies drawing the locomotive, which explain why it took so long relative to the distance.

But this still seem like an awkward rationalization to me.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Differences in latitude calculations :

Well, I was too lazy to do a real calculation of the earth's circumference and of how many kilometers represent how many degrees of longitude / latitude ;

So I just took a map (google maps in this case) and did a quick vizual estimation.

Seems like I fell around 1000km short of your own calculations.

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