Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

[Cptadder]

That article has my gears turning now. What I'm thinking is that even though we may have the engine, current industry might not be up to designing a practical vehicle. My brain feels like a brick right now, but I'll say that we would need scout ships and colony ships and probably freighters for this to pay off. I doubt current industry is up to such a task as said before. But what do I know? I'm just a guy who reads about guns and loves ponies.

Well, we do already have that asteroid mining company, and REL's work (hopefully), among others, for getting things into space in the first place. Space development seems like it might finally be starting to take off.

And it's all thanks to rich geeks who want to spend their money on something besides yachts they never use, designer wristwatches they don't wear and dipping various things in gold.

Instead they are trying to build themselves Starships and I for one am happy that's what they are doing with all that money. The fact said investments might make tons of money is a happy accident I know for some of them like Paul Allen.

[RoboRed]

I have been conditioned to not look at comments unless I want to hurt my brain (At least for sites that provide news of some sort.) After Yahoo News. Never again.

I hope for your sake that you've added YouTube to that list as well.

[iLateralGX]

I have been conditioned to not look at comments unless I want to hurt my brain (At least for sites that provide news of some sort.) After Yahoo News. Never again.

I hope for your sake that you've added YouTube to that list as well.

Of course! I just mentioned Yahoo because I learned to never read the comments there even before Youtube was around.

[Stringtheory]

I have been conditioned to not look at comments unless I want to hurt my brain (At least for sites that provide news of some sort.) After Yahoo News. Never again.

I hope for your sake that you've added YouTube to that list as well.

eeyup, any video remotely political, religious, or even mildly controversial, will have nothing but arguments and butthurt in the comments section

[RoboRed]

No, it's everything. I've seen religious debates spawn out of stuff completely unrelated. YouTube comments...ugh...

[Stringtheory]

No, it's everything. I've seen religious debates spawn out of stuff completely unrelated. YouTube comments...ugh...

that's the power of the internet!

[iLateralGX]

No, it's everything. I've seen religious debates spawn out of stuff completely unrelated. YouTube comments...ugh...

Also, say the word pony. That causes stuff as well.

[Ironmonger]

I've been thinking about changing mine, too, but I'm not sure if I should make a new one or go back to LMR...

You know what's stupid? When I first joined the forum and saw your LMR avatar I automatically thought you were a woman! Don't make a damn bit of sense but it's true and I feel shamed! XD

But since when have I ever made sense?

[Harmony Ltd.]

Funnily enough (not really), I automatically assume that everyone on the internet is male until I have a reason to think otherwise.

...

FUCK THE PATRIARCHY !

[Ironmonger]

I have the urge to hunt lions now.
Incoming Attempted Pun: I should try hunting standing up.

[Harmony Ltd.]

So, just because I can : an analysis on why exactly I think Red Eye's plans and methodology are fucking stupid and couldn't work even given the setting ; followed by a quick and dirty outline of what I'd do if I was in his place and at least as ruthless as he was.


Disclaimer : I know Red Eye is a literary device here to illustrate a Theme. I'll be the first to say that the fact what he does is unrealistic does nothing to retract from the merit of FoE – or at least that if you were to try to criticize the book, it wouldn't be the best angle of attack considering the rest of the setting.


BUt I've wanted to do this analysis for a while, so here I am.



So, basic assumptions :

- From what I gather of the descriptions of Fillydelphia, I'd say there's easily more than ten thousand slaves there. As a conservative estimate (IMHO) and to simplify the calculations, I'll assume a fixed workforce of 10000 slaves.
- Still from the book's description, it seems that the life-expectancy of slaves in Fillydelphia is pretty short. To make an analogy with the decay of radioactive materials, I'll estimate that slaves have an half-life of 6 month => a slave has 50% chance of dying each 6 month period – meaning that for a given batch of slaves you only have a fourth of them remaining after 12 month, and a sixteenth after 24 month. I'll note that this estimate is pretty conservative if we go by the in-universe “estimation” (subject to criticism) that the average lifespan of a slave in Fillydelphia is somewhere around a month and a half to three month.


So, where am I going with that ?

From these parameters, Red Eye has to find AT LEAST more than 5000 new slaves every six month, and 10000 per year.

Let that figure sink in.

He has to “acquire”, by any means, at least more than 833 new slaves each month just to keep a constant workforce. This is around 30 slaves a day.



Most communities in the wastes seems to be between 10 and 100 habitants in size, with the major towns and trading communities being around the thousand.

From what I get of the setting, population density is relatively low in the wastes, Hoofington being the exception rather than the norm.


Let's imagine that in the totality of the Wastes (Post-War Equestria), there's still a million ponies living, all ages included.

If we assume that ponies have a similar development cycle as humans, You have to wait between 12 and 15 years for a pony to be in age to reproduce without long term health problems =>IRL, a girl could have a kid as soon as she has her first periods, but not being fully grown if she were to have a kid it would damage her internal organs, leading to a high number of stillborn foetuses and death-by-childbirth.

I don't know what's the reproductive cycle of ponies, but for the sake of arguments, let's assume it's similar to humans.

So, if we were totally atrocious and made mares into child-factories as soon as they can, they could theoretically produce around 6 kids before they reach their twenties. And these kids will need to wait another 12 to 15 years for half of them (statistically) to be able to produce another batch of kids.

Given the horrible life conditions in the wastes, it's very possible that 50% of all the kids will die before reaching breeding age.



Where am I getting at ?

My point is that at the rate at which Red Eyes forces lead people to die, be it by warfare or brutal exploitation, in ten years the Wastes would have lost more than 100000 ponies from slavery alone, which represent 10% of the hypothetical population of 1 million ponies in the Wastes.


And this is a conservative estimate.



So either the Wastes are far more populated than I think, or Red Eye was the worst thing to happen to Equestria since the bombs fell.





So, what would be my plan if I were in his place ?

Well, first, not killing those I want to protect in the long term would be a good start.


To build a new civilization, you need manpower. You can't get around that. So I'll have to use slaves, the only ready source of manpower in the wastes.

But let's be smart about it. Slaves cost something to buy, and unless like Red Eye I can mint my own caps, I'll need to be careful with that. And not even talking about the problem of depopulating the wasteland if I get too careless about slaves life-expectancy, there's a point where supply will have difficulties to meet demands, if only because all the closest settlements will have been raided for manpower already.

So, I have all the incentives to see my slaves be at least healthy enough not to die working for me.

What that mean is, be ready for that : I need to provide some form of Universal Healthcare to my slaves.

Ironic ? That's roughly what happened in the real world. Slave-owner have real incentives not to see their slave dies, because it cost money to replace them, and slave-labor, at its most basic level, is used in order to diminish costs. So for economic reasons slave-owners have to keep their slaves healthy enough for them not to die AND stay productive.

So, Universal Healthcare. Nothing really fancy, just get a production line of Hydra, Healing Potions, Rad-Away, etc... and dispense them as necessary to your slaves. And have a number of docs you pay well enough for them to take good care of the cases that can't be treated just with chems.


But it's probable you don't have that much chems, and your soldiers will also use them, so you have to reduce consumption. But you want everyone to be healthy. So what do you do ? You diminish the sources of injuries and illness that would cause these chems to be used.

This mean that you punish your guardians if they hurt slaves in any way. This mean you make your slaves work only eight to ten hours per day, and allow them to take breaks during work hours, in supplement of their mid-shift meal break. This mean you make sure to reduce sources of injuries at their workstations. Etc...

Maybe you will produce less shit per hour. Maybe. But I don't think being 50% less productive has much impact when you're at such scales, considering what I said above regarding the Manpower Problem.


So, now you have relatively healthy slaves that are productive. What do ?

Well, you have to feed all these people. And when you work at such scales, you can't just rely on trade. So you have to establish your own agricultural colonies.


But, wait, basically, you're already building an Empire at this point. So this mean you must defend it.

So you build an armed force. But you can't rely on “reconverted” raiders and Griffin mercenaries. You have to create an institution, with cadres, and training facilities and people trained to train your soldiers.

So this mean building Schools.


There's a problem, now. You have lots of slaves, a good portion of them in remote locations you can't directly control ; and even if they are guarded by your military, and even if they are well treated, they are still slaves and they are still bound to try to escape. This pose a problem. As we have seen, manpower is rare enough as it is in the wastes, that you can't allow much “waste” in your human resources management techniques. So you can't just kill the slaves who try to escapes and be done with it, it would be grossly inefficient.

You have to be -smart-.


We have already seen that everyone working for you has a ready access to food and universal healthcare, and pretty good working conditions. They are also protected from raiders, and from abuse by their guardians.

At this point, their living conditions are probably better than most of the rest of the wasteland.

So why are they still slaves ? There's no doubt most of them would voluntarily work for you to benefit from all the advantages listed above.


Let's be intelligent, and do the following : when you buy your slaves, you tell them “For one Year, you will work for me as slaves. But even if work will be hard, you will be fed, protected, and taken care off. After your one year of servitude, you will have earned Citizenship in my Empire. You will still be fed, protected and taken care off, and free to go away as you wish. But know that we take care of our own, and if you have any problem, you can get back to us, we will do what we can to help you.”

At this point, probably 80% of your slaves will happily stay by your side even after their one year of servitude is over.



And your citizens are now free to work for you at the best of their capabilities, to join your schools, to add their competences to your workforce, or even to join your Army.



Voilà, you have a pretty solid basis for an Empire without being unnecessarily cruel. Be proud of you, have a congratulatory cookie.

[Ironmonger]

incoming luna:

[Harmony Ltd.]

incoming luna:

[Admiral Stoic Rum]

imma poke a hole there harmony, 10000 is too many, its likely around seven hundred to 2 thousand with about 114 slavers and slave masters and all with about 80 griffons.perhaps less. the red eye army wouldn't be a large population, maybe close to 200 individuals,

the military force you would still hire griffon mercs they just couldn't be your backbone. you would need to protect your assets in the slaves and agriculture. This is where your supporters come in, they get pay and such or something

then again Murky Number Seven Describes the mall as a place with about 120 slaves?

[Ironmonger]

...That was actually a really good post about Red-Eye. If I use that in my work I'll credit you.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Even if there was one thousand slaves in Fillydelphia instead of ten, it would still mean that after ten year the Wasteland would have lost one percent of its population in ten years from Red Eye's slavery alone. Maybe it could be offset by enough child birth, but that's still a demographic apocalypse in not-total-wartime conditions.

Also, my estimate, as far as rate of attrition goes, was really conservative, and if we go by the descriptions made in the stories (FoE and MN7), the real rate of attrition is likely to be around four times higher. So 4% of a population of a million instead of 1%.

Point is, Red Eye's slavery is HARDLY sustainable for more than a decade, and it seems that by the time Littlepip got out of Stable 2 it had been going on for at least four years, I think. Maybe even more, I have nothing solid on that, just an impression.


As for the the Army, that's pretty much my point : you can't rely on mercenaries, be them griffins or hired raiders - though you would need at least to hire griffins in the first hours of your adventure.

You have to convert your slaves into soldiers at one point or another. And if you want to do it right (ie : not have them be as bad as raiders), you have to "raise" them in an appropriate environment, and promote the appropriate "culture". Thus, the necessity of a competent Officer Corp, and educated NCOs to rein in the troops.



And yeah, MN7 was what led me to believe that Filly has at least ten thousand workers - even just the description of the work shift in Wicked Slit's factory alone seems to indicate (IMHO) AT LEAST a hundred ponies, most likely two or maybe even three. And her factory is just one among a number of others, and it's only one workshift of the two or three there's in a day. Do the math.

[Harmony Ltd.]

...That was actually a really good post about Red-Eye. If I use that in my work I'll credit you.

Thanks. I just had to vent on that one.

The stupidity of it all is one of the reason I have difficulties reading MN7 (apart from the fact Murky is a whiny little bitch and I constantly want to kick him in the fucking balls).

[Harmony Ltd.]

Also, a little precision : I'm basing my figure of "1 million ponies in the wasteland" by making a parallel with the NCR from the original Fallout series :

By the time of New Vegas, the NCR goes from San Diego, and even La Baja (Mexican California) in the South, to Oregon in the North, and Nevada / Las Vegas in the East.

At the time of Fallout 2, the geographical extension of the NCR was lesser than that, and it was said (in an NCR propaganda holodisk) that the NCR was home to roughly 700,000 people (human, ghouls and supermutants together).


I'm rolling with the idea that all thing considered, Equestria has a land area roughly equal to that of the NCR as of New Vegas, and a similar population density, or even slightly higher. Thus, around a million ponies.

[Valikdu]

I've been thinking about changing mine, too, but I'm not sure if I should make a new one or go back to LMR...

LMR is awesome, you should go back to it.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Hmm... This may be a thing :

http://derpiboo.ru/165485

[Ironmonger]

The author of Broken Steel is flipping his shit because someone "stole" *retina-tearing eye roll* his ship drawing. The other guy posted something with many similarities but has a few differences. I don't see how you can steal art if nothing is removed. I don't understand this apparent elitism among artists, I mean who the hell cares who did what as long as the image is created? Personally I wouldn't mind if someone copied part of my design as long as they credited me, but I would be bothered if they posted my art as their own.

[Stringtheory]

The author of Broken Steel is flipping his shit because someone "stole" *retina-tearing eye roll* his ship drawing. The other guy posted something with many similarities but has a few differences. I don't see how you can steal art if nothing is removed. I don't understand this apparent elitism among artists, I mean who the hell cares who did what as long as the image is created? Personally I wouldn't mind if someone copied part of my design as long as they credited me, but I would be bothered if they posted my art as their own.

but what if someone 'stole' your story? how would that make you feel? because it's pretty much the same thing, I would be pissed enough to make a blog post, or whatever he did about it

[Ironmonger]

That's literature, this is visual art. I would be pissed if someone stole AR because I wrote it but I wouldn't mind if they made some references or copied some concepts. Same goes for art.

I'm okay with using something as a template but not with outright plagiarism.

[Nightfire]

Hmm... This may be a thing :

http://derpiboo.ru/165485

((Really cool looking, I kinda want like Celestia cutie mark on my arm :3 be cool))

[Stringtheory]

That's literature, this is visual art. I would be pissed if someone stole AR because I wrote it but I wouldn't mind if they made some references or copied some concepts. Same goes for art.

I'm okay with using something as a template but not with outright plagiarism.

could you link me to the specific post, because I can't find it on FiMfiction.

but if someone 'steals' your art then posts it before you do, you're probably going to be considered the one who's ripping off
who posted who's version first? the author or the other guy?

EDIT: now I see it, at the top of the story, but that's not what I would really call 'flipping his shit', per say

[Ironmonger]

Here's the journal entry. Linky

I'm really not sure what to think about this other than what I've said. It's got my mind in a civil war of sorts.

[Stringtheory]

Here's the journal entry. Linky

I'm really not sure what to think about this other than what I've said. It's got my mind in a civil war of sorts.

oh, it's an actual SHIP picture, I thought it was an romance type of ship (you know you've spent too much time on the internet when...)

yeah, I can't tell if it's actually 'stolen', because supposedly they're based off of the same ship, though the other guy should've given the first guy a heads up first, just to be nice

and yeah, that's what I would consider 'flipping your shit'

[Kippershy]

No, looking at it, it looks more like plagiarism than use of concept to me.
I mean, yes ships will use the same type of styles and yes they will look similar, but all that seems to have been done is making it ever so slightly taller, longer, making the hull into a windowed cabin deck and... nothing more, really.

The layout, the engine funnel placement and style, the "mast" styles...
It's as good as the same ship ever so slightly edited, if not being the case as it is. Honestly, I do think they took the original piece and edited it as they saw fit.

[Ironmonger]

I got tired of debating it with myself, so I just threw my arms up and said "Fuck.", then walked away from it.

Also I apparently need an editor. My story has a bunch of grammatical and spelling errors that neither I nor Frost caught.

[Kippershy]

>2012
>Not releasing it without an editor, missing very few issues
>Not having someone then give you a list of issues to help out.
ISHYG...

I release Broken Bonds without even giving it a grammar check myself.
I just do it as I go and say fuck it past that.
I really need to stop that habit.

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